Russia invades Georgia

For the Union Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 05:40:17 PM GMT Print-friendly version Facebook

After Georgia attempted to restore order to its legal sovereign territory - South Ossetia - Russian tanks and fighters have crossed into Georgian land and airspace.

Russia wants all the oil in the Caspian for itself - to control and intimidate the West. A full scale attack on Georgia must be met by NATO.

 




UPDATE: Russia has rejected a ceasefire call from Georgia and continued bombing runs in Georgian territory.

***RUSSIA HAVE OPENED A SECOND FRONT (Abkhazia)*** 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7552908.stm 



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Russia invades Georgia | 43 comments (43 topical)

Re: Russia invades Georgia (#1)

by otware on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 07:33:01 PM GMT

Should tread carefully. Certainly an attack on a friendly nation and an ally of the EU cannot be tolerated, but do we really want to escalate things?

And if any military deployment is deemed appropriate (for peacekeeping purposes), it should be a European effort preferably, not another American engineered cock-up. 


Re: Russia invades Georgia (#2)

by adwilliams134 on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 07:39:11 PM GMT

NATO is a defensive pact.  Attack one member and all will stand together in defence.
Georgia is not a member of NATO,  so if you want the UK to attack Russia then they will be going it alone.
Also, the Russkis will have to wait their turn behind Iraq, Afghanistan and the next appointment - Iran.
Get on the blower, tell them we can fit them in for a barney, but not till 2015 at the earlieest.  If that's no good, get hold of Tehran and see if they'll cancel. 


[ Parent ]

Re: Russia invades Georgia (#16)

by Curlew on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 02:46:52 PM GMT

Fab!


[ Parent ]

Re: Russia invades Georgia (#3)

by jdc on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 08:17:39 PM GMT

Where does it end, then? Maybe Russia should have stepped in to defend Serbia when they attempted to restore order to their sovereign territory of Kosovo?


Re: Russia invades Georgia (#4)

by adwilliams134 on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 08:22:41 PM GMT

It's posturing by the Russkis.  You have to remember just how big their army actually is.  All they've sent in is one Tank Regiment from a Tank Division,  along with its support of 18 2s3 152mm Artillery pieces, Regimental level air defence and a battalion of armoured infantry.

In the russian scale of things it's naff-all


[ Parent ]

Re: Russia invades Georgia (#5)

by AngryVoter on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 09:35:06 PM GMT

This is true, but then remember two things.

1) The Russian military is conscripted, so effectively half the number of troops for a start that'd be of any use.

 

2) Those elements are from the 42nd Motor Rifle Division, the notorius unit that "Pacified" Grozny by levelling the rubble a lot more.


[ Parent ]

Re: Russia invades Georgia (#13)

by adwilliams134 on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 11:56:49 AM GMT

AngryVoter - At last someone on here who understands the capabilities (or lack of them) of the russian army and the dodgey soviet-era tactics it uses


[ Parent ]

Re: Russia invades Georgia (#6)

by Free Radical on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 10:35:18 PM GMT

NATO would like the Georgia to be a member of the alliance. Can you imagine how serious this situation would be if Georgia were in NATO?

I do not like the way that democracy has been undermined in Russia (for the first few years with our blessing! - we approved Yeltsin's crushing of the parliament of course) and I don't like the Russian government, but of course you can understand Russian fears about NATO's expansion up to their borders, and also about the US 'defence shield'. The US (and the UK) is reckless in its uncontrolled expansion of NATO and its undermining of the arms limitation treaties. We should have been looking for a neutral zone of buffer states between Russia and NATO, or alternatively Russian membership - too late for that of course.
 
Now we need a resolution to the Southern Ossetia conflict that does not trigger a wider conflict.


Re: Russia invades Georgia (#7)

by Free Radical on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 10:36:49 PM GMT

Russia wants all the oil in the Caspian for itself - to control and intimidate the West. A full scale attack on Georgia must be met by NATO.

'For the Union'  - you must be completely mad of course.


Re: Russia invades Georgia (#8)

by otware on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 11:03:02 PM GMT

Agreed. Now is not the time to start another war. There needs to be a negotiated settlement to this between Russia and Georgia, taking the wishes of the Ossetians into account. My understanding is that most of the South Ossetians have Russian citizenship anyway, and ally with the the Russian Federation (and their fellow Ossetians in North Ossetia-Alania) - although what will they think of their allies now that Russia has destroyed parts of Tskhinvali?


[ Parent ]

Re: Russia invades Georgia (#9)

by rwendland on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 01:21:05 AM GMT

> now that Russia has destroyed parts of Tskhinvali?

According to Reuters, who had a reporter there, it was Georgia that pounded Tskhinvali with heavy weapons on Thursday.


[ Parent ]

Re: Russia invades Georgia (#10)

by otware on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 03:19:32 AM GMT

So it was, I think the report that I read was either wrong or I got confused. It's very confusing.


[ Parent ]

Re: Russia invades Georgia (#15)

by rwendland on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 02:08:28 PM GMT

The reports are that between 1,000 and 1,500 of its own "citizens" were killed by this Georgian shelling of a city. Which side did NATO back when this kind of thing happened in the former Yougoslavia? We need to be careful not to blindly back Georgia here.


[ Parent ]

Re: Russia invades Georgia (#11)

by For the Union on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 04:04:48 AM GMT

Free Radical -

Georgia has the only pipeline from the Caspian to Turkey that bypasses Russia.

Georgia wants to join NATO. NATO has expressed willingness for Georgian membership.

Russia attack a pro-western nation - if that attack turns into an occupation and advance on Tiblisi; do you seriously advocate doing nothing? - and placating and aggressor nation?

I do believe that's the same as "feeding a crocodile hoping that its eats you last".... 


Re: Russia invades Georgia (#12)

by Free Radical on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 09:25:16 AM GMT

For the Union

NATO has expanded right up to Russia's borders - which is aggressive and reckless in my view. The US wants to install a missile "Defence Shield" in Europe which is an obvious threat to Russia. NATO has also wrecked the strategic arms limitation treaties.

I am no defender of the Russian government but NATO should be looking to build a peaceful world rather than constantly 'upping the ante'.

The policy you are advocating would be the start of World War Three (which would be a very quick war and all of Europe would be destroyed even if Russia and America were somehow able to survive). I hope you are aware of this.

In my personal opinion you are either naive or you are a warmonger, or both.

There is no comparison to the 1930s threat from Nazi Germany (which is perhaps what you are attempting to imply). Germany was clearly expansionist and clearly bent on war. Russia on the other hand has lost it's strategic alliance and a hostile alliance has expanded right up to its borders.


[ Parent ]

Re: Russia invades Georgia (#14)

by FreedomAndTruth on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 01:45:06 PM GMT

What do you think of this article?:

U.S. Attacks Russia Through Client State Georgia

 


Re: Russia invades Georgia (#17)

by Curlew on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 03:08:18 PM GMT

I am inclined to take quite a bit of it seriously - backed up by this article :

http://russiatoday.ru/employee/27 See further down the page "Why now".

Anywhere there is a pipeline route there is a power struggle (Afghanistan to name but one more). 'Tis a pity the combustion engine was ever invented.


Re: Russia invades Georgia (#18)

by Free Radical on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 07:14:06 PM GMT

I am surprised that the editors should see fit to post this thread on the front page, calling, as it does, in the most reckless fashion for NATO intervention in any war between Russia and Georgia. It seems symptomatic of the degree to which a kind of neo-imperialist thinking has become endemic within 'New Labour' - this will be denied no doubt and it will be probably presented by apologists for this line as the saving a country from imperialist aggression - but in my view it is shameful.

The article shows no appreciation of the complexity of the situation - more akin to a kind of Northern Ireland or Cyprus than anything else. We should remember that South Ossetia formerly enjoyed autonomy under the USSR and that many of the inhabitants are effectively pro-Russian and would like to secede. It also seems clear that the attack has come from the Georgians rather than the Russians.

I am no apologist for Russia itself but we need to keep some kind of perspective here and be able to see things from the Russian as well as the Georgian perspective. But I am stunned by the author's warmongering rhetoric and further surprised by what I see as an error of judgement on the part of the editors - because to select an item in this way is tantamount to a certain kind of approval, at least of the quality of the piece, even if the editors do not share the authors views.


Re: Russia invades Georgia (#21)

by adwilliams134 on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 09:11:17 PM GMT

"If they want to cut their own throats, why do we not let them do it?  I should say we are not going to spend all our money and men in civilising a few people who do not want to be civilised"   Balfour, 1919, addressing Cabinet in regards to civil conflict rampaging in the Caucasus.

The bottom line is that unless we in the west are prepared to intervene militarily and go to war against the Russians the Southern Ossetia is to all intents and purposes annexed and now part of the Russian Federation.


We can't go to the Security Council because Russia is a permanent member and will veto.


We can't threaten unilateral sanctions because we have billions invested in Russia.


So basically,  unless we're prepared to attack them,  then we should just shut up, accept it and give whats left of Georgia some security guarentees.


Milliband getting involved is a bit bizarre.  If he wants to be leader, he should stay out of this.  All he's going to end up doing is having to publicly fore-lock touch to the Russians and make himself look a weak fool.


[ Parent ]

Re: Russia invades Georgia (#19)

by For the Union on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 07:49:58 PM GMT

Russia wants to recapture its former glory as a superpower - its the only nation that has BEEN a superpower and then lost its status (well apart from GB ;)

After the break up of Empire - Britain granted independence and autonomy to its constituent nations - accepting the new world order without fuss.

Russia is NOT the Soviet Union, although it WANTS to be - the comparison to Nazi germany is apt in a militaristic sense - both being nations seeking to establish hegemony by use of force and intimidation.

Russia over the Caucusus, Germany in Europe. The caucusus is a vital EUROPEAN interest.

Russia have bombed Georgian infrastructure - including the CASPIAN pipeline and port towns.

Still convinced its not Russian aggression? 

Free Radical, you are very quick to through about accusations regarding warmongering and naiveity - i do not in any sense advocate war with russia if a ceasefire is in place - but the West cannot afford to have georgia annexed by its bully neighbour. It does appear however that RUSSIA has violated a ceasefire call which should be met by prompt international sanction.

Peace in our time indeed Free Radical. Thank god the lunatic appeasing left dont control our party.

There has NEVER been a more urgent requirement for Europe to start building pipelines that bypass russia!  


Re: Russia invades Georgia (#22)

by otware on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 02:14:35 AM GMT

I don't accept that really. When Georgia attacks South Ossetians, many of whom are Russian citizens, you cannot expect Russia to stand by and do nothing. But at the same time of course the Russians are using this as an excuse to assert their authority in the region, and evidently strikes on Georgia itself are unacceptable - especially as they are so obviously for other political reasons (oil etc.) rather than simply S. Ossetia.

How can Europe support sanctions against Russia when we are becoming dependent on them for gas? The way I see it, it would be lunacy to support a course of action that potentially escalates violence and tension in the region and between Europe and Russia - and is against our interest.

Is it not enough that their is the defence shield? See it from Russia's point of view - they are being threatened. It's time we calmed down and tried to negotiate a peaceful settlement in the interests of S. Ossetia (most importantly!), Georgia, Russia and the rest of the world. By all accounts most S. Ossetians want to be either in Russia or closely alligned to it. What about national self deternmination? We can't just go off guns blazing supporting Georgia's 'war' with Russia and imposing sanctions, that's just going to cool relations between Britain and Russia yet more which is not in our interest. 


[ Parent ]

Re: Russia invades Georgia (#24)

by Free Radical on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 02:59:04 AM GMT

For the Union

For ten years or more Russia appeased the West and watched the disbandment of its strategic alliance. Of course it was militarily weak. Instead of using this as an opportunity to build a new peaceful Europe with a buffer zone between Russia and NATO, the Western alliance has aggressively expanded NATO right up to Russia's borders and wishes to continue this process. Thank God France and Germany resisted the incorporation of Georgia into NATO because, as I noted above, we might then be faced with World War Three.

You should read the article in Saturday's Guardian by historian Mark Almond to give you the kind of historical and political perspective, that you evidently lack.

I think that, apart from the thoughtless and reckless tone of your reaction, what shocks me most is that your thinking appears entirely imperialist - the West needs to control the Caucus' oil and gas and must be prepared to risk war with Russia as part of that. If this truly reflected the right of the Labour Party we should be very worried indeed.

Your accusation of appeasement by the left is most inappropriate and historically inaccurate if you mean to compare this situation with the 1930s, as recent threads have pointed out.

Actually it is the West's policy of supporting Yeltsin's and Putin's crackdown's on parliamentary democracy together with NATO's aggressive expansionary stance that has stoked the fires of Russian nationalism over the past 10 years. Plus the disastrous Western-backed free market economics that plunged the average Russian into dire poverty in the 1990s and created a class of gangster capitalists.

But it is a very dangerous misaprehension, as Mark Almond points out, to confuse Russian actions now with a return of the Cold War or Russian imperialism.

What I am calling for is a sense of perspective and an ability to see things from a Russian point of view as well as a Georgian point of view. And, as I said earlier, we must hope for a peaceful resolution of the conflict. The problem is that the West has torn up the long-standing agreements on integrity of nation states by its complicity in the dismemberment of Yugoslavia and, most importantly by its moves to grant autonomy for Kosovo - recognised internationally as part of Serbia. By abandoning such a status quo position we help open up cans of worms everywhere - if self-determination and independence for Kosovo, then why not for Ossetia, and why not for Abkhazia - and countless other disputed regions across the globe. Self determination is an admirable thing of course, but we must recognise that we are applying double standards (wherever it suits Western strategic interests) and potentially helping unleash chaos and bloodshed in such areas.


[ Parent ]

Re: Russia invades Georgia (#26)

by rwendland on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 10:45:24 AM GMT

Yes. Abkhazia has been de-facto independent of Georgia since 1994. If the west backs independence of Kosovo, it is hard to see a rational argument not to back independence of Abkhazia from Georgia. We have started on the slippery slope.


[ Parent ]

Re: Russia invades Georgia (#20)

by adwilliams134 on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 08:59:52 PM GMT

"After the break up of Empire - Britain granted independence and autonomy to its constituent nations - accepting the new world order without fuss. "

Really?   Aden, Palestine, Kenya, Malaya, India, Dhofar, Cyprus......................... 


Re: Russia invades Georgia (#23)

by For the Union on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 02:43:30 AM GMT

Russia provided the SO with russian passports so that it could use the excuse of protecting nationals in - what is - Georgian sovereign territory; if Georgia ever moved to integrate the separatist regions.

Lets reiterate one abundantly clear fact. The Russian "peacekeepers" have failed. Peace has not been kept, indeed - Russia has escalated it to war. 

South Ossetia must now come under UN administration. Or better yet, NATO. Indeed - a purely European force.

Georgian membership of NATO must be pushed forward - only collective security secures peace. 


Re: Russia invades Georgia (#25)

by swatantra on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 09:48:08 AM GMT

Its like Israel striding into the Lebanon and getting a bloody nose from the Ossetian Russians. Gerogia should withdraw and admit deafeat. Georgia as a viable a state is becoming as ridiculous as Pakistan with several coups revolutions. Its a source of great instability in the Caucasus, the last thing that Russia needs is Nato threatening it on its very doorsteps. The Ukraine and Georgia need to think again about looking West. Its simply not on. The best Georgia could do is remain neutral. Cessation never works, as we've found out in the Balkans; there will always be enclaves like Ossetia.


[ Parent ]

Re: Russia invades Georgia (#27)

by otware on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 11:42:28 AM GMT

Are you insane? If Georgia joined NATO then the west would be obliged to defend it against Russia. Good one! War with Russia.


[ Parent ]

Re: Russia invades Georgia (#28)

by Free Radical on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 11:53:16 AM GMT

Exactly.


[ Parent ]

Re: Russia invades Georgia (#29)

by adwilliams134 on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 11:59:54 AM GMT

Strategically speaking,  it would give both the west and russia a greater sense of security if russia annexed the whole of georgia and re-incorporated it into the federation.


[ Parent ]

Re: Russia invades Georgia (#30)

by rwendland on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 12:13:29 PM GMT

... and a new occupation/civil war.

The fact that Stalin(?) drew the borders of the Soviet internal republics so crazily, and/or large population movements since then, seems to have created large ethnic problems for the current CIS states.


[ Parent ]

Re: Russia invades Georgia (#32)

by otware on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 02:17:42 PM GMT

Well it's like the Balkans in that there are a lot of ethnic groups all living in tiny sections of a small area. I'm sure there has been some migration, but remember than in the USSR Ossetia was given some autonomy as an Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic (in the north) and an autonomous Oblast (in the south). It was the way in which the USSR dissolved that really created this crisis, with Georgia staking it's claim to South Osstia when the Ossetians wanted independence (or continued affiliation to the USSR/Russia)


[ Parent ]

Re: Russia invades Georgia (#33)

by Curlew on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 05:02:45 PM GMT

Remember the TV voting programme Great Britons?  heard on the radio today that Russia is currently running its own version of this, and in the lead is one Joe Stalin.


[ Parent ]

Shelling and MLRSing a city (#31)

by rwendland on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 12:41:35 PM GMT

I'm amazed that there has been so little media reporting so far of the fact that Georgia shelled and used multiple-launch rocket systems against a city's population, by some reports killing about 1500, initiating this. This is just totally unacceptable in the modern age. I'm glad to see The Times is starting to report on this.

Another Times report reminds us of Sarajevo:

"Georgian snipers [were] taking down anything that moves, even outside the town’s hospital, which is making it hard to deliver the wounded. They [were] not sparing anyone," claimed a South Ossetian government spokesman.

This is just such a disaster. Georgia has shown itself to be entirely too wild and dangerous to be in NATO. We should be so thankful to the EU countries that resisted the U.S. drive to get Georgia into NATO.


Re: Shelling and MLRSing a city (#42)

by MatthewStiles on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:54:05 AM GMT

You're quite right.  It is amazing.  To listen to Bush and co you would think the attack by Georgia never happened.  There was an appalling article by Denis MacShane in the Telegraph.  The strongest criticism he has of Georgia is as follows:

"To be sure, the efforts of the democratically elected government in Tbilisi to establish its control over all of its territory was clumsy."

Yup, massacring hundreds of civilians in an unprovoked attack is "clumsy". 


[ Parent ]

Re: Russia invades Georgia (#34)

by For the Union on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 06:55:53 PM GMT

Georgia felt that the "peacekeepers" weren't up to the job (evidently), indeed they were totally bias in favour of the SO rebels. 

This is a base step from Russia. Comparison to the militarisation of the Rhineland is apt. Russia now knows there is NO WILL to stand up to it. 

Azerbaijan, Armenia etc... They have now all fallen into the veritible Russia SPHERE OF INFLUENCE - if they do not conform - then they will be destroyed.

I have changed my view in regards to the Presidential election over this issue - I want McCain to win (it pains me to say that - i am no fan of the republicans) - but his League of DEMOCRACIES is needed now to establish a forceful DEMOCRATIC WILL and to deprive Russia of any veto.

Russia is not a democratic state - it is an authoritarian regime which derives its POWER from recapturing past glory. That sounds scarely FAMILIAR.

Use of force is always deplorable. However, it is now clear Russia wishes to give Georgia a bloody nose - which is NOT the action of a respectable world power. 


Re: Russia invades Georgia (#35)

by doctordunc on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 08:01:35 PM GMT

It shouldn't be - but the last few years have seen several apparently respectable world powers (ourselves, the US and Israel spring to mind, but I'm sure there are others) who have chosen to give bloody noses to nations of which they disapprove, sometimes in response to actual grievances, sometimes to imagined, invented or embellished grievances - never because of last resort or pressing need.


[ Parent ]

Re: Russia invades Georgia (#36)

by NB on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 11:22:18 AM GMT

In this kind of situation it is vital that the Foreign Secretary, the PM and the SoS for Defence should work as an effective coordinated team. Thousands of lives are at stake - and there could potentially be a major war.

With Milliband having virtually declared war on Gordon, and Browne being part-time and widely expected to be dropped in September ... words almost fail me. 


Re: Russia invades Georgia (#37)

by Free Radical on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 02:03:32 PM GMT

I have little doubt that the Foreign Office would have had a line on this already worked out in advance - it's hardly a surprise is it. In any case much of the running is being done at NATO, EU and US level.

Presumably Georgia was calculating on Western support when it launched its offensive. They may well have been wrong. As I mentioned above it is a mercy that France and Germany opposed Georgian membership of NATO. For the same reason we should oppose the Ukraine's entry. The right response to this is bilateral agreements between NATO and Russia to respect the independence of such countries which would act as buffer states. Russia constantly risks being drawn into Georgia because these are disputed territories, with Russian leaning populations. As I mentioned, the West's policy over Kosovo risks creating chaos and mayhem across the region.

Anyone who thinks Russia is itching to be drawn into a full scale invasion of Georgia should consider their experiences in Afghanistan and Chechnya - and of course our own little imperialist adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan (and we will be no more successful in Afghanistan than the Soviet Union was... but that is another matter.)


[ Parent ]

Re: Russia invades Georgia (#39)

by adwilliams134 on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 04:25:04 PM GMT

There will be no full scale war.  This is a limited operation by the Russians aimed at securing enclaves of ethnic russians.  They have no desire to conquer the whole of Georgia,  though I daresay if the Georgians don't yield then they will probably push on to the strategic road/rail intersection of Gori.  ( In places like Georgia,  where infrastructure is virtually non-existant and geography is hostile,  road & rail links are vital)

We in the west will huff and puff but there is basically very little we can do.  Not even sanctions which, because of investemnt by huge western corporations into Russia,  would actually hurt us more.

What we need to be aware of is Russia might get ideas about ethnic russian communities that exist in other places such as the eastern part of Ukraine and also the eastern parts of the Baltic States.  We've already shown we won't go to war over Georgia.  Would we go to war over Lituania?  Do the Russians think we would? Or, more dangerously, do they think we wouldn't.

We can't even draw lines and say 'cross this and we bomb you'  because that will just encourage them to annex up to the lines.

Milliband would be best advised to leave things alone or he could end up being seen as not only a paper tiger but a toothless one at that.   After his non-declaration of war on GB the other week he has already portrayed himself as a kitten.


[ Parent ]

Re: Russia invades Georgia (#40)

by otware on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 03:18:14 AM GMT

If Russia invaded the EU then it would surely mean war, and rightly so. That would be unacceptable. But I do not think that Russia would invade an EU membr state when it would incur the wrath of Britain, France and Germany. The real issue I guess is in places like Ukraine.


[ Parent ]

Re: Russia invades Georgia (#41)

by adwilliams134 on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 09:55:46 AM GMT

So you think the EU would start World War 3 if Russia invaded a meaningless couple of counties in north-east Latvia?  I don't, and more worryingly I think the russians think we wouldn't either.


[ Parent ]

Re: Russia invades Georgia (#38)

by madasafish on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 03:26:18 PM GMT

Georgia started it.


Re: Russia invades Georgia (#43)

by David Phillips on Fri Aug 15, 2008 at 03:06:26 PM GMT

Russia must respect the territorial integrity of Georgia, and adhere to the 6 point peace plan put forward by President Sarkozy.

As to the question of NATO membership for Georgia and Ukraine, it is clear that it is now no longer a question of "if" but rather "when". The earlier the better for regional stability and security.
 


Russia invades Georgia | 43 comments (43 topical)