A close look at the latest YouGov poll

All the press focused on was the Brown v Miliband ratings. But the real story was how we dropped back as soon as the public thought there was going to be a fight within Labour

The You Gov poll of 23-25th July had the following results:

Con 45
Lab 26
Lib Dem 17
Other 12

After a febrile week of leadership speculation, the YouGov poll done on 29-31st July produced the following result:

Con 47
Lab 25
Lib Dem 16
Other 12

In other words, all the leadership chatter did was send us from 19 points behind to 22 points behind, with headlines immediately wiping out the approval we got just the week before for welfare reform.

And here's what the figures would be like if David Miliband took over:

Con 47
Lab 24
Lib Dem 16
Other 14

We are of course in a dreadful place - the 26% at the very top speaks this loud and clear. But we compound things is we appear at all divided. Part of the reason Labour is behind is that the public thinks that Brown doesn't command his cabinet, his party or parliament. Some of it is his fault. Some is the fault of his cabinet who arn't hanging together the way they should. But leadership challenges just add meat to this narrative.

The corollary to "Labour united can never be defeated" is "Labour divided is always defeated".

We've simply got to grit our teeth, start canvassing in our respective constituencies, stop attacking each other and stop drawing attention to ourselves. As long as we hog the limelight and draw attention to ourselves, no one scrutinises the Conservatives. They are protectionist*, anti-EU, anti-free movement of people, anti-common sense and economically illiterate. But no one realises this as long as the "Will Labour commit regicide" circus is in town.

*Protectionism is in the Conservative DNA, but free-trade is in the Labour DNA. The very first Labour government of 1923 was a free-trade one - for historians, here's that 1923 manifesto which states boldly that "The Labour Party challenges the Tariff policy and the whole conception of economic relations underlying it. Tariffs are not a remedy for Unemployment. They are an impediment to the free interchange of goods and services upon which civilised society rests".   It also states that "Labour stands for equality between men and women: equal political and legal rights, equal rights and privileges in parenthood, equal pay for equal work." - we are now close to delivering that last pledge, 85 years later...

The 1924 Labour minority government abolished all tariffs on coming to power. But the government fell because the Liberals and Conservatives falsely claimed that Labour were in league with communists (as though communists could be free-traders!) and had a vote of no confidence. The Conservative government that followed immediately reinstated tariffs and protectionism and the great depression followed. Thatcher radically dissented from this - but the Conservative party is in the process of reverting to it's protectionist and paternalistic type.



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Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#1)

I'll comment on the historical stuff - protectionism and the 1923 manifesto - another time (it's quite interesting stuff, though I disagree with a part of your analysis).

I would disagree with your analysis of the polls only very slightly.  I've no doubt that the spectacle of people briefing against each other and writing coded articles, and press speculation, damages us in the public's eyes.  I would counter, however, that a leadership election - a good-natured, free and fair leadership election - could have the opposite effect.

There's quite a bit of evidence to support this, too.  Just the miniature version of this (the deputy 'contest') seemed to do us a bit of good last year, and Tories benefited greatly from the Cameron-Davies face-off.

It can have the opposite effect if candidates are at each other's throats and we seem a useless shower.  But if, on the other hand, people get the chance to see the great wealth of ideas and talent across all the wings of the Labour Party, that can do us nothing but good.  I'm coming round the view that a leadership election - quite possibly with Brown as one of the candidates - if handled correctly could be a great positive.

The fear would be if people think we've taken our eyes off the ball of running the country.  But the flip-side of that, is that people can talk about policy and direction (in the way David Miliband did the other day) without all the absurd speculation, etc.  In other words - we all know there's a lot of thinking and planning to do; a leadership election would allow us to do it on our own terms, rather than those of the right-wing press.

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#2)

The time for the leadership election contest was March 2007. If Miliband and others wanted to put their hat in the ring, that was the time to do so (and they shouldn't whinge about having their arms twisted by Brown and Straw - if they were so lily-livered as to be intimidated, they arn't leadership material).

You mention the Tory leadership contest - it worked because it was held at the appropriate time, after the loss in the general election, and after their leader Howard had announced he was stepping down. It was able to be positive because no one was stabbing anyone else to precipitate a leadership contest. Now contrast that with the Major-Redwood leadership contest of 1995 (or even the ousting of IDS in 2003) - pure poison, because knifings were involved.

Re the historical stuff - I included it because it tickled me pink to read about 1923 Labour insisting on "equal rights and privileges in parenthood" etc. They would approve of Labour introducing paternity leave and be absolutely shocked at how old-fashioned David Cameron and other Conservatives are to have opposed it, in the 21st century.

It drives me mad when ignoramuses claim that "Labour has lost it's roots", when so much has been consistent over time. The party has been fighting consistently for equality for over nine decades now. Compare that to the lack of consistency in the Liberals and Conservatives, who simply go where the populist wind blows them.

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#3)

Well obviously I don't disagree that there should have been a leadership election last year.  I fought terribly hard to try and make sure there was one!  But, as I said, if it were handled in the right spirit, it might be better late than never.  It could be worth a try at least!

I agree with your point re: equality and the 1923 manifesto (though it wouldn't have occurred to me that past Labour manifestos wouldn't be committed to equality).  I rather like this passage as well though:

 It will apply in a practical spirit the principle of Public Ownership and Control to the Mines, the Railway Service and the Electrical Power Stations, and the development of Municipal Services.

;o)

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#6)

LOL. Remember that New Labour re-nationalised Railtrack (done by arch-Blairite Byers, no less).  I think that many members of the public would be delighted if there were "public ownership of Electrical Power Stations", in the light the price rises announced recently. Alas there is no money to do it. The Tories blew all the money they raised from the sale.

I was also tickled by 1923 Labour wanting a Windfall Tax on War fortunes, to be used to "reduce the burden of Income Tax, abolish not only the Food Duties, but also the Entertainments Tax and the Corporation Profits Tax, as well as provide money for necessary Social Services".  That's not that different to what the present govt has done - windfall taxes on privatised utilities promised in the 1997 manifesto, plus the proceeds raised from the 3G auction, used to cut income tax to from 23% in 1997 to 20% now, and cutting corporation tax from 33% in 1997 to 28% now.

We don't have duties on Food anymore, so they must have been abolished at some point, do you know when? I know that in 1997 there were fears that if the Tories were re-elected they would put VAT on food (they certainly intended to put VAT on domestic fuel up to 17.5%)

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#7)

Not sure.  When Purchase Tax was introduced in 1940 it excluded food, but I'm not sure if that was following an earlier precedent.  I would guess so, as it wasn't really the moment for bold tax cuts!

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#9)

I know that in 1997 there were fears that if the Tories were re-elected they would put VAT on food (they certainly intended to put VAT on domestic fuel up to 17.5%)

Gosh, how do you know that? Labour also told the electorate in 1997 that the Tories were going to abolish the old age pension. Guess you "knew" that the same way.
 
Have you read that Aesop's Fable about the boy who cried wolf? Because Labour is in that story, and therein lies the reason for your 24% poll rating.

Getting back to food, there is already quite a lot of VAT on it. It is a common misconception that there's none, but in fact it's only the actual food ingredients that are VAT free. Any preparation and convenience aspects of it are all VATable.

If you buy from a grocer whose till splits VAT out - I think Ocado does for example - you'll find the VAT on a weekly shop comes out at about 6 or 8%.

Most junk and convenience foods are bought by low-income families (hence the Jamie Oliver flap about school meals a few years ago) so this is another area where being poor actually increases the tax you pay. The best way to reduce the tax you pay on food is to buy wholefoods and cook meals from scratch. On this basis, an organic wholefood curry works out quite a lot cheaper than a piece of frozen crap off a supermarket shelf.

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#12)

How do we know that? Because Tories have a history of putting up VAT.

When Thatcher came to power, VAT was 8.5%.  She immediately increased this to 15%.  Then John Major increased it to 17.5%.

There was no VAT on domestic fuel - Tories increased this to 8% with the intention of increasing it to 17.5%. Labour cut it back to 5% (under EU rules once you've introduced VAT on a good, you can only cut it back to 5%). The Tories were definitely planning on putting VAT on food.

Some Tory blogs are already talking about increasing VAT to 19% should they gain power.  You are a bit of a sucker if you think they will leave VAT alone - it's their favourite tax because it hurts the poor most

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#15)

P.S. Before the 1979 election, Tories denied that they would increase VAT. And before the 1992 election Tories denied they would increase taxes at all.

On bioth occasions they were lying.

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#18)

I think implying that the Tories want to hurt the poor is overblown. They may disagree with your politics but they aren't evil, any more that Labour are evil. Policies have unintended consequences but to believe that the Tories want to crush to poor is on a par with belief in global conspiracies, black helicopters and aliens controlling the colour purple.
Not only are you lowering your own morals in doubting those of other, you also underestimate your opponent and so make their victory more likely.

On the topic of VAT on fuel, a true green view would be that it should be 17.5%, especially on fossil fuel derived energy, since that would reduce demand and therefore reduce CO2 emissions. But are the Greens evil too?

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#22)

No, tax rises are OK as long as they're left-wing tax rises. Only tax rises by the right are evil.

The Greens are actually red underneath.

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#24)

Labour didn't make any promises on tax apart from not putting up basic income tax - and in fact we've cut the tax from 23% in 1997 to 20% in 2008. 

Tories in 1979 promised they wouldn't raise VAT and they did. John Major promised he wouldn't raise tax at all, and he introduced a shed-load - not just raising general VAT to 17.5%, but other taxes such as insurance tax, airport tax, the fuel tax escalator etc.

George Osborne is on the record as saying that taxes might rise under a Tory govt. Which taxes do you think he means? Inheritance tax? Nah, it would affect his buddies. High rate income tax? Nah, it would affect his buddies. VAT - raising VAT is the traditional Tory thing to do, isn't it?

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#36)

That last 2p cut in the basic rate of tax worked out really well didn't it? Paid for as it was by the 10p tax band disaster.  We now have a higher percentage of GDP taken in tax than Germany, though somehow, Britain still it doesn't feel as efficent.

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#25)

You think the Tories hurt the poor by accident? Don't forget that Cameron was an assistant to Lamont when Lamont was smugly stating that "if it isn't hurting, it isn't working" and practically having an orgasm at the thought. Did Cameron say to him, look, this is wrong? Or did he go along with it?

Cameron also wrote the Conservative manifesto for the 2005 election, which was the most xenophobic Tory platform since Enoch Powell. Did Cameron say, this is wrong? Or did he go along with it?

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#37)

After economic over-expansion there has to be retrencement and that does hurt. The whole of Britain including thousands of poorer people are going thorough that now. So can I surmise Gordon Brown and Labour enjoy hurting poor people too?
Demonise Cameron all you like, I guess it was more fun when the Tories were in power and your hate kept you warm at night, rather than have your people make the decisions, some of which you might disagree with.

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#38)

During the current slowdown, the Labour government has expressed concern for people.

During the Tory recession (and it was severe - seven consecutive quarters of negative growth), the Tories expressed pleasure at the pain they were causing. Lamont was practically wanking at the thought.

Do you understand the difference? Probably not, as you keep defending Lamont instead of condemning him. It indicates that the "change" in Tory attitude is superficial. Underneath you are the same nasty people you always were.

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#39)

I don't think it is the Tories who are the nasty people when you cast vile assertions like that around. If anything the Tories are better. They think Labour  want to do the right thing, just that they are misguided as to what it is. Labour supports like you think the Tories are evil and their policies grow out of that. I know which sounds more balanced! Very few people actualy want to cause harm, though many do so through unintended consequences of their actions.
Asserting the Tories want and enjoy hurting poople may have worked as a tatic when they were deeply unpopular but now Labour are the unpopular ones and that kind of rant makes you look stupid and small minded.
With people like you ranting bile you will move even more British voters towards giving Labour a good kicking at the next election that will see you out of office for a generation. As I said, unintended consequences cause harm
It isn't the Tories who are seen as the Nasty party now, Labour is and you are a manifestation of that.

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#40)

"vile assertions"! Lamont actually said when asked about the pain voters were in "If it's not hurting, it's not working", and then smiled in a smug self-satisfied way! He was actually pleased at the pain he was causing.

It's not us asserting something about Tories - we've not put words in your mouths, it's Tories themselves who have actually said these things.

And still you refuse to apologise for it! Still you defend it - which implies that you agree with him. Which makes me think that you haven't changed at all.

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#41)

Sorry, as to "If it isn't hurting it isn't working", then that is a statement for fact when it comes to deflationary economic policy. I rather think the Governor of the Bank of England would use the same phrase about the current squeeze after the inflationary expansion of credit and government borrowing we are suffing now. Living standards have to stagnate in order for the bubbles in the system to be worked out. See todays FT http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0bbf7a38-631d-11dd-9fd0-0000779fd2ac.html
As to Lamont's smug smile. I don't rememebr that. Pehaps you have pictures. I do remember he had a face that looked smug at all times, that doesn't mean he did smile a smug smile.
Facts rather than blunt assertion are the best arguement, and when it comes to apologies, Gordon Brown still hasn't actually apologised for removing the 10p tax band to pay for a cut in the basic rate of tax. So by your logic unless you apologise for that right now you agree with it.

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#42)

There shouldn't have been hurt in the first place, and Lamont certainly didn't have to rub the noses of people in it. I note you are still defending him. If you were a proper Cameroon, you would be condeming him and asking him to leave your party, in the way Labour expelled Militant. The fact that you won't speaks volumes...

Gordon Brown has apologised for the 10p thing BTW.

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#43)

He hasn't actually said sorry, just a non apology.
As to whether they shouldn't have been hurting in  the first place, of course the Tories mismanaged the economy in the late eighties/early nineties with the Lawson boom and joining the ERM at too high a rate. That was why Lamont had to squeeze inflation out of the economy. The tough medicene laid the foundations for the 1994-2007 long boom. That didn't do the Tories any good since the voters punished them in 1997 but it was the right thing to do in the circumstancies he found himself at the time.
We are now in similar times, an economic downturn made worse by lax regulation of financial institutions and government over borrowing. I hope Alisatir Darling is prepared to make the budget cuts/ tax raises that will be required to fix the economiy. If he doesn't George Osboure will and every cut, and every tax rise will be accompanies by the mantra "because of the mess left by the last Labour government". And it will stick because it is true.
So you can decry Lamont, fail to do the right thing and be punished for decades, or administer a bitter pill, get on with fixing the economy and accept, while the Tories will get the benefit, so will the British people.
So lay off Lamont, or is it the Labour way to punish people for doing the right thing?

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#45)

I hope Alisatir Darling is prepared to make the budget cuts/ tax raises that will be required to fix the economiy.

It's economic illiteracy to tighten fiscal policy during a downturn. Tories still don't understand how to run an economy! We've had 11 years of growth because Labour runs a counter-cyclical policy. Osborne is on record saying he would have tightened fiscal policy during the 2001-2005 period of global weakness as well - that would have plunged the economy into a recession too. Thank goodness Tories weren't in power then, eh?

And the economy isn't in recession - it's just slowed from the 2.5% growth we had last year to around 1% - which is incidently not too far off the growth in Q1 2005 - just before Labour won the general election. 

Why should we "lay off Lamont"? He was a cruel man, worse than Thatcher, which is why John Major sacked him.

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#47)

FYI Lamont is Brown's favourite Chancellor.
As for economic illiteracy, it is pro-cyclical to increase borrowing and government spending during an expansion, not counter-cyclical, and you raise taxes and cut spending to squeeze out inflation what ever the economy is doing, or you just store up worse problems.

True the economy isn't in recession yet, but most forecasters predict slow to zero growth at best. 1% per year when the first quarters were higher than 1% implies the next couple of querters will be worse.
The risks of stagflation are greater than at any time since the 1970s. We can't spend our way out of this and most people, especially sadly the poor, will get hit. The hangover from the personal borowing binge will hold back growth for a long time. It will be a painful adjustment. But for the long term good the right policies should be followed, not a government borrowing binge under a scorched earth policy. Labour's economic reputation is in tatters (see weekend polls). Rediscovering prudence now will pay off in the long term or Labour's new reputation for economic incomptenace will keep it out of power for a decade or more.
This is nothing to be proud of.

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#49)

The world expansion was 1994 to 2001. 1994 to 1997 was under the Tories, and they increased debt sharply during this period. 1997 to 2001 was Labour, who ran a very tight fiscal policy and decreased debt during this period, running budget surpluses.

2001-2005 was a period of global weakness. The USA, France, Germany, Italy and Japan all dipped into recession during this period. The USA was so scared of a double dip recession than from 2003 to 2004 they held interest rates at 1%. During this period of global weakness, Labour ran a loose fiscal policy, and hence we stayed out of recession.

Osborne has said that he would have run a tight fiscal policy during the period of global weakness of 2001-2005 - this would certainly have resulted in us following germany et al into recession. Not very clever. As I said, Tories know very little about how to run the economy.

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#50)

And Germany is in a better state now to weather the credit crisis than we are. Not to mention politically it would have been better to have had a slowdown when you were popular and the opposition divided than now when the electoral is sick and tired of Labour.
You can say what you like about Lamont but he is a fair man. He has come to the defence of Alistair Darling
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/04/13/do1304.xml
The 15 year expansion was at a time when the entry of China into the global market place kept a lid on inflation. This allowed government, personal; and company borrowing to increase past the point it would have caused inflation in previous years. Now the China effect is ending we are left overdrawn. to store up future trouble so you can say an end to boom and bust was not bright and lax regulation allowed lending to get out of hand (125% mortgages weren't available under the Tories).
Seems to me if neither the Tories nor Labour know how to run the economy we are up a creek without a paddle. Maybe Vince Cable is the answer?


 

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#51)

And Germany is in a better state now to weather the credit crisis than we are.

No, love. You missed the news in the FT that German government officials think their economy contracted by a stonking 1% in Q2. That's horrible. We'll get the official figures from eurostat on the 14th. But the euro has already started dropping on the news.

Our lovely country under New Labour really is faring better than everywhere else

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#52)

I'll cut and paste that for later. My wife works in insolvency. She is rushed off her feet and sadly it hasn't even begun.
I know it is painful but whatever happens Labour will not get the credit for the good things, only the bad. I think the opinion of the British people is settling and it will take a miracle to change it.
After slowdowns there is a lag between the recovery beginning and the voters noticing. So even if there is a recovery by 2010 it won't do Labour any good.

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#53)

You might be right that Labour won't get credit for handling this world problem better than everyone else.

We've been a victim of our success these last 11 years. People take it for granted that you can have 11 consecutive years of growth, and don't realise how unusual the British experience has been. We'll see what happens 

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#54)

Looks like you are right about Germany. Oh well. Deutschland not uber alles after all.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c88d2922-63e9-11dd-844f-0000779fd18c.html

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#55)

Germany doesn't have much domestic demand. They depend on exporting to France, the UK and Spain. Immediately those three countries slow, Germany slows. It's a flaw in the German model. They need to have some sort of offsetting mechanism so take up the slack when exports drop.

The Merkel govt made a big mistake increasing VAT to 19% - it depressed domestic consumption. Why do the right always put up VAT? It's an evil tax.

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#56)

You mean there's a tax Labour doesn't like? Surely not! Can we look forward to its abolition? 

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#61)

Well, it has been brought down on many products...under a Labour government. And we have a track record at this. We had a fairly pathetic pledge card in 1997, but one of the promises was to cut VAT on fuel. And we did.


This stretches back a long way. In our 1922 manifesto, we promised to shift the burden of taxation away from indirect sources, by using a windfall tax to abolish taxes like the Entertainment tax.

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#60)

Hate to point it out but it is an CDU/SDP coalition, so the left and the right have put up that evil tax. It isn't just right wingers who like VAT!

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#44)

Oh, I almost forgot. One other inaccuracy to draw your attention to. John Major coined the phrase, “if it isn’t hurting, it isn’t working”, not Lamont. So his smug face must have been your fevered immagination.

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#46)

So supposedly "nice" Major was really nasty, eh? Figures.

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#48)

Ah, but did he have a smug smile when he said it?

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#59)

No he saved the smiles for Edwina Curry apparently.

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#8)

The party has been fighting consistently for equality for over nine decades now.

Equality of opportunity or equality of outcome?

When you work out the answer to that, you may realise why you're so unpopular.

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#11)

Let's hear your reasons for disliking equality of outcome then, Tory bloke.

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#14)

Equality of oppertunity is impossible. Right from conception. Low-weight babies have lower IQ's, but poorer kids are more likely to weigh less than richer kids. I remember reading about a study that says if you give the same test to a rich, but unintelligent 2 year old, and to a poorer, very intelligent 2 year old, the former scores 10, and the latter scores 90. When they reach primary school, the former will score 45, the latter 55. Between 6 and 7, the scores will start crossing over.

Token Tory maybe wants to pretend that you can either have social mobility, or attempt equality through redistribution, to 'undeserving' people. But all the evidence in societies with higher social mobility is that in high tax, high spending societies, with less inequailty and poverty, there is higher socil mobility.

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#20)

You can’t have either, Equality of opportunity because we are all different genetically so some are clever, some dim, some strong, some weak. This is not a eugenics argument, all deserve respect, but stating the scientific obvious.
Equality of outcomes could be possible but only by holding back those who have greater genetic gifts than the rest. The lowest common denominator would have to be the benchmark and people prevented going beyond that. I’m pretty sure that isn’t Labour policy.
This isn’t to say that the poorest should be left to fail or that the richer shouldn’t pay more tax than the poor. I would say that abolishing the grammar schools was the single biggest defeat of social mobility in the history of the UK. I know the arguments against but it is undeniable that for many smart working class kids it was the way up the ladder that has been kicked away for those who came after them. (having lit that touch paper I shall retire).

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#27)

Unusually for a leftie I have an open mind about grammar schools. All I know is that my Dad couldn't have gone to University if it wasn't for the grammar school system.

I firmly believe that those not academically able should not be forced to do GCSEs - it's very unfair on the students to be set up to fail. If there was better provision for vocational education starting at a younger age then I think it would do wonders for dealing with the skills shortage in Britain.

What was wrong about grammar schools was the way in which the selection process took place and that secondary moderns were just inferior.

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#30)

Grammar schools were an improvement on what existed before, but that isn't quite the point.  In other words your Dad (and mine) might not have been able to get where they did without grammar schools, but they both could have got there if good comprehensive schools had existed.

Grammar schools were not good for social mobility, apart from for a small minority.  Middle-class pupils were grossly over-represented in them.  They still are.  Expensively-coached kids pass the exams.

But I no longer think they get much advantage from it (except in some areas where the local comprehensive schools are failing - and sometimes, of course, the existence of grammar schools or other schools that are able to cherry-pick pupils contributes to that failure).  The pass rates, etc. are all very impressive, but so they should be.  I see pupils at local grammar schools who do less well there than they would have done in the local comprehensive schools because of the nature of the educational culture in the grammar schools.

You will probably be quite pleased with the new diploma systems that are coming in then, Otley, although I'm still in two minds.  I think everybody should get a mixture of academic and practical education, rather than some teachers making assumptions about pupils aptitutes at a young age and labelling them 'academic' or 'vocational'.  Diplomas may well end up working the way I want, but I worry they won't.

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#34)

And grammer schools just cream off middle-class kids now, with onnly 1% on free school meals, minute compared to the national average of 20%. I'm not sure how it was before. But, societies with higher taxes, and higher spending, as well as lower poverty and inequality have much higher social mobility. Just look at the Scandanavian countries.

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#35)

"Just look at the Scandanavian countries."

Yes. Just look at them - go there have a good look and find out what the phrase "Working black" means in Sweden. (Hint: It's nothing to do with skin colour. Think tax evasion)

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#32)

So we've replaced grammars + secondary moderns with just the secondary moderns, which are called "comprehensives".

Kurt Vonnegut (#29)

Reminds me of Harrion Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegut. A dystopian short story that is well worth a read if you can get hold of it. The "Handicapper General" reminds me of either Dawn Primorolo or Harriet Harman.... The first line is ""The year was 2081, and everyone was finally equal."

Equality has been achieved by handicapping the most intelligent, athletic or beautiful members of society down to the level of the highest common endowment. This process is central to the society, designed so that no one will feel inferior to anyone else

 

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#31)

You've saved me the job, DevonChap.

I wouldn't be so sure that achieving the lowest common denominator isn't Labour's aim. Neither party has a good record here.

The Conservatives had an interest in inflating grades because it disguised the deficiencies of comprehensives, which they couldn't be bothered to reform because most of their offspring go to grammars or independents.

Labour retains that interest in grade inflation because, while it can't take away the education people have already had, it can undermine it by giving everybody the top grade regardless of competence or effort. 

The aim I think is thereafter to comprehensivise the universities. Labour reckons that if everybody's got four As in their A-levels, it will be impossible to distinguish talent from mediocrity; combine it with a postcode prejudiced lottery and hey presto! Cambridge University will be no better than North-West London Former Poly! A win for equality!

This won't work, because the elite universities have simply gone back to setting their own exam. Candidates who've got As all through their career are going to get a shock when they sit that, if hitherto they have only ever been taught to the test.

Ultimately, the people who lose out from Labour's attacks on school and university standards are the disadvantaged. By denying people a decent education they entrench social immobility, but then that's electorally advantageous. 

Meanwhile, Cambridge will remain invincible. Cambridge alumni are among the smartest, most prosperous, most forward thinking people on the planet, there are many thousands of us, and if I got a letter from my college tomorrow asking me to dig deep so they could take the university private and keep it elite, I'd send them £5000 a year until they said I could stop. And so would the other 270,000 of us.

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#4)

I think your "DNA" stuff is way out - but the fact that the polls are utterly static (random variations but the Weighted Moving Average is 45:26:17 and has been the same to within random error since mid-June) is remarkable.

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#5)

What I'm going to find interesting is the 50 seats now being heavily targetted by the Lib Dems where they require, at most, a 7% swing.

They're all seats the Tories would never have a hope in hell of actually getting.

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#10)

Indeed - the LibDems may have finally cottoned on to the fact that the prize of becoming the Opposition now beckons. If they target seats the Tories have no hope in, and vice versa, it is highly likely that 2010 will see 120 Labour MPs, 400 Conservatives and 120 LibDems, as the two sensible parties pick off the discredited sleazy loonies from left and right. 

Given the fact that Labour's bankrupt even with all those quango jobs and peerages to hand to fund its operation, it's a good bet that by 2014, after four years of fueding opposition, Labour will be so skint it won't exist in its current form. We can be sure that Lord Paul, the Hindujas, Bernie Ecclestone, and co will quickly transfer allegiance - and their dosh - to whoever is best placed to grant favours, which used to be Labour but will probably never be again. 

So Labour in 2014 gets 40 seats and by 2018 will be gone. It may reinvent itself as a Thatercherite party by about 2030, as always catching up with the zeitgeist 40 years late. But I'm not betting on it.  

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#13)

Labour are sowing the seeds of their own destruction.  The other parties are almost certainly reaching 'gentlemen's agreements' about where they will try and where they won't.

The SNP are going to be a major player in this.  Although the tories can never publicly support indepedence for Scotland,  that doesn't mean thay have to show any effort in opposing it. 

A conservative government in Westminster suits both Salmond and Cameron.  It will give Salmond his 'freedom'  and it will make Labour the party of opposition south of the border for decades,  especially if the tories and the libdems reach an 'understanding' with regards to which english and welsh seats they will not compete against each other in.

Given such a scenario - a tory government in Westminster and an independent Scotland - Labour will probably have the mother of all civil wars and eventually end up as party 3 in the rump Parliament behind Lib Dems and Tories.

Bit of a bizarre chain of events.  Thatcher created New Labour,  New Labour ended the UK and put the tories into power permanently.  Shrewd old bag that Thatcher.

And what's more,  it's all perfectly plausible

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#16)

There's already rumours of an electoral "non-aggression pact" from Nick Clegg's summer message.

 

Personally... I blame Blair and Brown for the destruction of Labour more than old Maggie. All Maggie did was debunk socialism as an economic system, not the "Third Way" or the big state, or any other social ill that Labour supposedly stood for to protect.

The problem was that, without socialistic economics to rely on, Labour didn't really have anything to stand on that didn't just make them "Tory-lite" and here's the rub. That's all Labour now is, a "diet" version of the Tories.

What should have happened under Blair, before he came to power was a whole new thinking of what the left-wing is and what it should do politically. This simply hasn't happened and is now why the Tories have wound the clock back to the 18th century conservatism in a massive and "audacious" political landgrab in an attempt to obliterate the Labour party as a political force.

As the spectator said "Some Labour members should be thinking of the 1920's and the Liberal Party, not 1997 and the Tories."

Why?

Well... there's no council backbone.

There's no individual or "high roller" support from the Unions [93% of Labour's funding is now Union based]

Bankruptcy of trust for the working class because they feel they've been passed over in favour of immigrants, economic or otherwise.

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#17)

Yep. Labour will have about 100 to 120 seats after the next election and about 40 the one after that.

Amid all the guff about the centre ground, what's often forgotten is that the centre ground has been migrating to the right since 1979 and shows no signs of stopping. Thatcher quite correctly reasoned that if she positioned the Conservatives further right then the cente ground would move rightwards too. Indeed it has.

This is why I suggest, quite seriously, that if Labour doesn't simply vanish insolvent by about 2012 or 2013, it will have to re-invent itself as the leftmost right-wing party.

By 2030, the earliest likely date for the Conservatives to lose power, it may perhaps most closely resemble a Thatcherite party, circa 1987. It could be pragmatically pro-nuclear, it could believe in the democratisation of share ownership, it could believe that the middle classes pay too much tax, and so on.

All those solidly Thatcherite tenets could start to look quite left-wing over the next few decades.

I remember a friend of mine at university commenting, at the time of the brief rise of the SDP, that the prospect of the Conservatives losing power was not nearly so alarming, now that there was an alternative government that wasn't completely insane. Something similar prevailed in 1997. That's the situation Labour needs to get back to, but it's going to take a generation for the electorate to forget what Labour is actually like, and for Labour to forget its hatreds.   

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#19)

I'm sorry but anyone who posts about politics 20 years into the future is either very very brilliant - and very lucky if they are 50% correct  - or a complete fantasist.

About the only projection about the future we can make is: the next 5 years are going to be tough economically. And Labour's poverty targets have zero chance of being achieved.


And at some time in the next Government, they  will raise taxes and cut spending.


Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#21)

I'm sorry but anyone who posts about politics 20 years into the future is either very very brilliant - and very lucky if they are 50% correct  - or a complete fantasist.

Not at all - we can infer quite a lot from data we already have.

First, one-term governments have been quite unusual since 1945. So we're talking at least two Conservative terms, given the state of the polls. 
 
Add that psephological fact to Labour's financial situation - millions in the hole and heading for defeat - and it's clear Labour won't be able to afford to fight general elections at all quite soon. 

The idea of state funding of political parties is a joke because Labour already is state-funded. Once it has to pay its own' researchers salaries instead of having the Civil Service do so, and finds the BBC gone and there's no fawning leftist broadcaster any more, it will find impossible to figure out its message, never mind get it out to the masses.
 
And this is before considering that, unlike the Tories in 1997, it has two or perhaps even three rivals for its pitch (the LibDems, the BNP, and perhaps the Greens); or that, in Scotland, it faces a fearsome challenge from yet another leftist party that offers separation; or that there's going to be a horrific feud after they lose in 2010.
 
It's all very cheering.

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#33)

1) The civil service was political before 1997, with the DTI releasing a report in 1995 saying that the NMW would cost us 2 million jobs

2) What evidence is there to say that the BBC is left-wing?

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#23)

I'll grant you Labour is bust (financially and ideas as well).. and a £50k cap on all donations will kill off TU funding.. (which will be one of the first acts of a new government).

Having said that, there are millions of voters who will continue to support Labour ideas and another Party will form out of the ashes.. probably with some good ideas and some policians with fire and ideas (i.e none of the current Cabinet then..)  and  life will go on...

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#26)

madasafish, you are spoiling Token Tory's wet dreams! Tories have taken just one by-election from Labour in 30 years, and they are already banking on winning continuously for the next 30 years!  What is it they say about hubris?


Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#28)

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#57)

Is this not solid proof that people want to see a Conservative government?

Please consider visiting www.conservatives.co.uk and then even you Labour patriots will see the sence behind the polls.

Thats www.conservatives.co.uk the website of the next government and a party of sence.

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#58)

Hells teeth! If you're going to try to Tory-troll at least get their website correct. It's only common sense after all!

Re: A close look at the latest YouGov poll (#62)

Token Tory, I agree with some of your praise for Cambridge Graduates, but then I am married to one.

Indeed it made her prosperous. At the end of her first term, she used some of the savings from her student grant to buy her parents their first 'fridge. She had never had so much money in her life.

Getting there was a bit more hazardous. She was the only one in her year at her primary School to pass the 11+. Where were the others?