Dave shows his true colours

David Cameron’s lecture to the fat and poor in Glasgow yesterday to “take responsibility” was the classic statement of conservatism. If the people are poor, it’s their own fault. Or as Dave puts it, “social problems are often the consequence of the choices that people make”. The Glasgow citizens aren’t merely people suffering unemployment, ill health and poor housing. They have “twisted values” that have “eaten away at our social fabric". And as it’s the 21st century we have an update to this Victorian morality – they’re not just poor but they’re fat. So we can attack them for that too.

On the face of it, this speech, aimed at the core Tory vote, was a politically astute move. The deprivation of the constituency allowed Cameron to highlight the issue. At the same time the fact that the contest is effectively between Labour and the SNP with the Tories certain to lose means that they is no need for a more nuanced position in order to support the Tory candidate.
 
Mike Smithson at pb.com has pointed out that Cameron could be getting over-confident. And in my opinion, he’s running ahead of himself. He’s forgetting that this stuff is only supposed to come out after winning a general election. For now, he should continue the pretence of appealing to the reasonable centre ground that has accepted Labour’s expanded public services and humane approach to the poor and less well-off.
 
Dave up to now has been so good at maintaining the reasonable-chap façade that we forget that he was heavily involved with drafting one of the most unpleasant Tory manifestos. Remember, “Are you thinking what we’re thinking?” Yes, the insidious xenophobia and barely-concealed racism of Michael Howard’s campaign – that was nice Dave. But they’ve learnt their lesson now – keep that stuff well hidden away.
 
And he has succeeded in leading the Tories in keeping up appearances pretty well, on a range of policies. Recently, for example they’ve been getting quite sentimental and earnest about the NHS 60<sup>th</sup> anniversary. On the face of it, Labour has won the health argument. No more “patient’s passports”, no more opting out. Apparently, the Tories now accept that the NHS should be free at the point of use and paid for out of general taxation.
 
But do they really? If you listen to their statements about tax-cutting (and all the nonsense about “shrinking the state”, some of it sadly, from our own side) then it doesn’t really make sense. There is no way in which the NHS is going to cost less in the future, for the main reason that people are living longer. Scratch a Tory, and they don’t really believe in the NHS. Just read the Tory blogs, or letters in your local newspapers, and all the same prejudices come out about “waste”, how BUPA can somehow insure for your cancer care or transplant surgery and how charity can take care of the great unwashed.
 
It’s much the same with the environment. Dave continues to do well on the blue-green stuff and he’s doing a damn good job of soaking up Lib Dem support because of it. But look at the difference between the Tory front bench on one hand, and their parliamentary party and activists, on the other. In a recent parliamentary vote on Labour’s climate Change Bill, the Tories only imposed a one-line whip – the weakest discipline available to them. Why did they do this? Because they knew that otherwise they would risk a clash with the dozens of climate-change deniers on their own backbenches. They were able to stay away and not participate in the vote. Therefore the façade is maintained – for now - of a nice green Tory party.
 
That façade – on the environment, the NHS, education and social inequality – is essential for the Tories to maintain their political appeal. Having temporarily broken it, I suspect that Cameron will realise that he’s made a mistake and draw back, merely to uttering more platitudes about society going to the dogs. But it’s instructive that he has so blatantly shown himself in his true colours.
 
 


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Re: Dave shows his true colours (#1)

I've already written about how George W. Bush/David Cameron started out talking about helping immigrants and poor kids/hoodies and huskies. There are massive differences, and it's in the little policies that you notice them.

I think it's time for Brown to show Murdoch that he won't be his bitch. But Cameron decided to suck up to him, and the Tories now want to rid Britain of media neutrality laws, apart from the BBC.

Now, much of the cynycism about this government comes from the fact that right-wing papers don't disagree with us, but they are flat out lying. Some say we should just accept this. What good has it done us? We appease them, and still they bash us, and bash us at election time.

75% of the paper readership is of right-wing papers. This is what Cameron wants for our TV screens. If you haven't seen Fox News, it's grim to watch. This in conjunction with top-slicing the License Fee could be his most right-wing yet. Why? Because it creates a right-wing culture in which his views are more acceptable.

Re: Dave shows his true colours (#2)

David Cameron’s lecture to the fat and poor in Glasgow yesterday to “take responsibility” was the classic statement of conservatism.

And your post, by the looks of it, is a classic statement of state-driven socialism.  Would you agree that people's social conditions are at least partly a product of their choices, and not always the fault of someone else?

Re: Dave shows his true colours (#10)

It beggars belief that anybody can claim that fat people aren't responsible for their condition, and I say this as a bit of a porker myself.

Obviously if you are fat it is because you eat too much and don't exercise enough.

Obviously your weight is your own responsibility.

Why is saying this even remotely controversial ?

Re: Dave shows his true colours (#3)

Oh sure,the poor choose to be poor and the sick choose to be sick,don't try and fool us with your weasle words you plum, we on the centre left know the tories still want to decimate the health service and this is just another salvo from admiral S-cameron.

Re: Dave shows his true colours (#4)

There really isn't an answer to a reply like that.  However, I'll give it a go.  Which Tory has told you that they would like to 'decimate' the health service?  What did they propose doing, and for what reasons?

Re: Dave shows his true colours (#5)

DAVID CAMERON’S policy chief has declared there will be “no limit” to privatisation of the National Health Service under a Conservative government.

In comments that threaten to damage the Tories’ carefully crafted new image, Oliver Letwin has outlined plans for a huge increase in the use of private companies in healthcare provision.

Letwin said the Tories would have “no hang-ups” about use of the private sector in healthcare, although the NHS would remain free of charge. Asked if there would be any limits, he said: “No limits, no. Let the commissioning bodies decide where patients can best be cured. If people can provide services under the NHS which are good services — social enterprises, private bodies or NHS foundations — if they can satisfy the commissioners within the NHS that the best way is through them, then they should be part of the show.”

Conservative Central Office immediately tried to play down the remarks, insisting there was no plan to break up the NHS.

Letwin’s remarks threaten to undo months of work by Cameron and his team to convince voters of the party’s commitment to public services.

Now then Prbo how much is CCHQ paying to be there stooge over here?

You have a world of knowledge at your fingertips i suggest you use it.

Re: Dave shows his true colours (#6)

Let's leave the personal comments to one side, they don't do you any credit. 

What precisely about Letwin's remarks would 'decimate' the NHS, and how?  I don't necessarily pass judgement on what he says, I don't really know enough about the subject.  However, I don't see why contracting out services to the private sector will somehow mean that the NHS is 'decimated.'  Isn't this process exactly what the Government have been doing, anyway?  could you outline precisely what would be different?

Re: Dave shows his true colours (#7)

" Oh sure,the poor choose to be poor and the sick choose to be sick...."

Not making a choice is also a choice. I try to persuade my mother to stop smoking because it costs her £30 - £40 week and she's on a pension. It helps keep her "poor" and it's not doing her health any good, but she won't even try to give it up.

 

Many fat people of those at risk of obsiety choose to eat high-calorie sugary foods. I used to do it myself. Since stopping TV dinners, chocolates and lots of toast, I've lost 2 stones. If I can do it anyone can.

The poor  don't choose to be poor and the sick don't choose to be sick, but other choices can make you poor and sick.

 

"we on the centre left know the tories still want to decimate the health service"

24 hours to save the NHS? Blair's old rallying cry? Yet surely it is Labour who has already destroyed the NHS and broke it up into pieces? It now is the ultimate postcode lottery where those in Scotland and Wales are guaranteed different standards of service and care from those in England. Labour did that, not the tories.

Re: Dave shows his true colours (#8)

Well, ask any independent health observer, and they will tell you the NHS has improved dramatically. And as for the postcode lottery, Labour is beefing up NICE to limit the postcode lottery.

Now, every generation of conservatives believe that they live in a meritocracy. They don't like the response of the centre-left, that it is complicated, and that there are many factors.

I'll give you one factor. Low weight babies tend to have lower IQ's. But, more lower weight babies are from lower income families, because of poor diet. From birth, that is one disadvantage.

David Davis wants to pretend that Thatcherism allowed him to change social classes. Actually, he changed classes in the more socially mobile pre-Thatcher era.

It is more complicated, than many would like it to be. I'd like there to be only one factor, so that it can easily be corrected, but the world doesn't work that way.

Re: Dave shows his true colours (#11)

We simply can't let Tories peddle this lie that the NHS has somehow been destroyed under Labour. Almost anyone old enough to have used the NHS during the last 10 years can attest that it is hugely improved. To my mind, despite reservations about some of the spending and my opposition to the privatisations, this is the crowning glory of this government. It is enormously better than the state the NHS was in in 1997. Not perfect, but enormously improved.

I don't trust the Tories one inch on the NHS.

Re: Dave shows his true colours (#9)

Well Look at  Glasgow: The ward with a current byelection being held. One of the worst wards in the UK for poverty, illness and life expectancy. They have consistently returned a Labour MP... and despite 11 years of Labour Government they are still one of the poorest with lowest life expectancy etc.

Lots of words about the NHS and helping the poor.

Pity the results show in Glasgow at least it's just words.

Perhaps someone will explain to me that it's all the fault of the Conservatives?

Re: Dave shows his true colours (#12)

The problem is what ever has been said you can say the same of Labour, Labour will privatize parts of the health service they already have, Labour blames people for being fat or if your a problem family you will be kicked out of your council house. This is the problem the Tories can say all this now knowing that Labour are doing the same.

Re: Dave shows his true colours (#13)

Does anyone seriously disagree with the statement: “social problems are often the consequence of the choices that people make”??

Re: Dave shows his true colours (#14)

It depeneds. Conservatives have always believed in the myth of the meritocracy. It's a free country they say. Not quite. When businesses demand deregulation, they say they'll still honour good wages and ethical practises etc. When they don't, they extraordinarily shift the blame on to the consumers and the workers. But life paths are not set in stone after A-level. The rich have more choices than the poor. Lives are more likely to be set in stone at 3, than at 18.

Re: Dave shows his true colours (#19)

Does anyone seriously disagree with the statement: “social problems are often the consequence of the choices that people make”??

I'm going to side with Jkitleft on this one, it's a "It depends" situation.

However, like Cameron, I have to disagree over punishing the rich purely for being rich [especially the kids of the rich] it's not their fault that some were born into money, and some were not, it's a "luck of the draw" situation.

However, I do agree that it can be, in part, down to your own choices. I think Cameron was targetting the fat because they can do something about it [Like I did, oddly enough]

Being poor tends to be a harder issue to tackle. You can drive yourself out of poverty if you really try hard and have an enterprising eye [Duncan Barrentine, anybody?]

But like the political commentator said on This Week last night. "Labour has inadvertedly managed to enforce the class system." In part it's manage to continue the work they purport was started by Thatcher, yet still Brown blames Thatcher for it all.

When you've had a full decade in power and the rich have got richer, and the poor got poorer, then you've failed in that regard.

A generation has been left behind as a result and it will take somebody with a hell of a radical plan to kick start a lot of people who've had their ego's massaged as victims for a full decade being changed to realizing that it's partially their own fault also for not hauling themselves up out of the pit dug for them by themselves and successive governments.

Personally though, I beleive in a "limited" meritocracy. Construct a basic, but robust framework and let people operate within it, keep a basic frame work of a minimum wage and environmental practices, with some health and safety considerations and then let the businesses operate as they need to, liberating businesses allows them to expand easier and quicker, thus generating more jobs and places of work, they don't get bogged down in some paperwork that do seem largely unnecessary.

It's better than the present Oligarchic-Democracy that has slowly eeked into existence for the last ten to fifteen years where calling the racist card gets you somewhere, and where the yobs are allowed to roam free because the police has become bogged down in accountability paperwork.

Not to mention the meddling councils, bin police, salt shakers with only five holes because of 'health concerns' etc etc.

We need another clear out of the whole system, simply because at present it's about to collapse.

Re: Dave shows his true colours (#15)

define 'often'

Re: Dave shows his true colours (#24)

I suppose "a significant fraction of the time".  Say more than 20%.

It's ludicrous to say this is "an attack on the voters of Glasgow East". It's not Cameron that has given these people pretty much the worst social and health outcomes in the EU despite/becasue of one of the highest "social expenditures" per head. 

Re: Dave shows his true colours (#16)

Will soemone tell me where people are:
forced to smoke
forced to drink too much
forced to overeat.

?
Please.

Until they do, I will continue to believe people make choices.

Of course if you believe in kharma it's all preordained ...so why bother trying..


You can help people to help themselves but if people do not really  want help... see drug addiction.

Re: Dave shows his true colours (#17)

Not everyone who is a drug addict doesn't want help you know. And of those who do want help, and those who get it - not all stop being drug addicts. It's not as simple as that. Sadly!

Re: Dave shows his true colours (#18)

Thanks for all the comments on my posting.

 
I agree – of course - that we’re responsible for our individual actions, and eating too much is a case in point. This is certainly Labour’s view and if you read our health policy paper, to be debated at the NPF at the end of the month, there is an excellent section on “helping people take care of their own health.”

 
But Labour recognises that if you are born into some families or social situations the odds of having a successful lifestyle are stacked against you. However virtuous and hard-working your family, if you’re born in Glasgow East then it’s more difficult to be healthy and wealthy than if you’re born in Witney.  

 
That’s why I think Cameron had a cheek to attack the Glasgow East constituents in the way that he did. We shouldn’t let him get away with it. In my opinion, they’re still the same old Tories.

Re: Dave shows his true colours (#22)

"But Labour recognises that if you are born into some families or social situations the odds of having a successful lifestyle are stacked against you."

 

Everyone recognises that - that isn't the issue, its what you do about it that matters.

Social Mobility has fallen under Labour as it has for the last 30 years - ever since Comprehensive education was widely introduced.

A first rate education is the main route out of poverty and into this 'successful lifestyle' that we all want and in this regard the change from a selective to a comprehensive education system by both main parties has been a disaster for the poorest in this country.

 

But back to the issue at hand - looks like your swipe at Cameron hasn't got the widespread support you were expecting. Perhaps Cameron's not so daft after all if even the readers of Labourhome can see some logic in what he says. 

Re: Dave shows his true colours (#23)

Grammer schools currently just cream off middle class kids. It doesn't help social mobility.

Don't take my word for it. 20% of kids are on free school meals overall, but this falls to 1% in grammer schools.

Schools do better in areas without grammer schools. In Kent, with the most grammer schools, it is twice as likely to have schools under special provision.

In the Grampian, with the most comprehensive schools, there are no schools under special provision.

Re: Dave shows his true colours (#25)

Whilst 'Schools might do better in areas without Grammar schools' social mobility doesn't.

 It is really rather pointless to claim that restricting the poors access to the best education money can buy will have no effect on social mobility.

The fact remains that Comprehensive education has been a disaster for social mobility - and 30 years of experience should make that clear to even the most ardent fan of the Comprehensive system.

Re: Dave shows his true colours (#26)

I simply can't agree. Grammar schools cream off the middle class.

20% of pupils are on free school meals. What is the percentage in grammars? Just 1%.

The best models in Wake County, and the Netherlands, stops this middle-class bias from happening. In Wake County, when they ensured that schools could only take a maximum of 40% on free school meals, the results of poorer students, in terms of pass rates shot up from 43% to 61%. They suddenly caught up with middle-class kids.


I don't think it is so much of a fact. Social mobility started grinding to a halt, when inequality and poverty shot up during the Thatcher era. Why is it that in Scandanavia, they combine high tax rates, integrated schools, low poverty and inequality, and the highest social mobility in Western countries?

Re: Dave shows his true colours (#20)

Is there a link to the full speech? I think that is pretty essential to the story. 

Re: Dave shows his true colours (#21)

I managed to hunt it down, it seems it's Daily Mail like paraphrasing.

 

http://www.conservatives.com/tile.do?def=news.story.page&obj_id=145626&speeches=1

Full transcript of the speech. As ever it seems to be a fairly crafted "Sensible" sounding approach to the situation. Part of it is all on his latest line of attack of "We'll try to do our bit, but you'd better ruddy well do yours."