The real civil liberty scandals.

So David Davis stands on a platform opposing ID cards, despite only abstaining when Michael Howard ordered his MP's to vote for the legislation.

He opposes the DNA databases and CCTV cameras that his dear leader came up with, as an adviser to Michael Howard.

But his real scandals aren't just supporting capital punishment and Section 28. The real civil liberty scandals are much, much worse.

Why do the Tories say not a word on the government attacking legal aid? Because the government has created 3,000 criminal offences, the legal aid budget soared. So they are attacking it. Of course, the Tories probably want to cut it, but not for the same reasons.

Or, what about the fact that in the last 30 years, around 1,000 black men have died in police custody? When the MacPherson report recommended measures to prevent racism in the police forces, the Tories denounced it as "political correctness". These are small measures, like logging the ethnicity of those they stop in the streets, to stop police harassing black men. That is the kind of 'paperwork' the Tories want to rid us of.

Howard was challenged by Doreen Lawrence about his opposition to these reforms at the last election. He stuttered "I didn't know I was going to be asked about this".

And the piece de resistance. Last year, a cause of mine was brought to the forefront of the attention of those here in Britain. It was that of the Burmese opposition. The crime of Aung Sun Suu Kyi is to have won an election.

At the last election, David Davis admitted, and yet kept a policy to be elected on, that is the greatest butchering of civil liberties. Jeremy Vine asked him, whether if the Tories proposed to withdraw from the 1951 UN Convention on Refugees, would mean turning away Aung Sun Suu Kyi if she turned up on our boarders seeking asylum.

He was forced to admit that yes, it would mean turning her away.

The so called leading libertarian in this country, so concerned about civil liberties admitted that he would turn away one of the world's leading fighters against tyranny.

Wow.



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Re: The real civil liberty scandals. (#1)

"He opposes the DNA databases and CCTV cameras"

Not quite - he says that everyone with a criminal conviction should be on the DNA database, not one million who have never committed any crime. His logic is that most offenders commit further offences.

As for CCTV - it is useless. Face it - if CCTV worked then you could never watch a show on telly that shows CCTV footage of people committing crimes. Why? Because if CCTV worked then a crime would never be filmed by it. The fact of the matter is that people commit loads of crime in front of CCTVs and if you want proof then leaf through the Radio Times.

 

"would mean turning away Aung Sun Suu Kyi if she turned up on our boarders."

Well - why should she get in if she turned up?
 

Re: The real civil liberty scandals. (#2)

Is CCTV useless? Not quite.

Some people adhere to a peverse belief that not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims.

But two-thirds of suicide bombers have been non-Muslims, whether communists in Lebanon, or Hindu extremists in Sri Lanka.

And mainly white middle-class animal rights extremists are those behind bombings of scientists houses.

And we all know how white Irish terrorists attacked us for a long time.

The last white terrorist to have murdered anyone in this country, was caught on, yup, you guessed it, CCTV. David Copeland may have claimed more victims had there been no CCTV in this country.

The Ipswich ripper was stopped from murdering a sixth prostitute by CCTV.

Injury prevention have told us there are far fewer intakes into hospitals for assaults, because police get there much faster.

It is perhaps not the best way of stopping crime (though it is good at it), but it is a good way of prosecuting criminals, tracking infomation faster, and stopping future crimes.

There is such a thing as positive liberty. A smoking ban has seen in other countries, and already in this one, that healthcare costs go down.

But on the DNA database, I am weighing up a swab for many, against a rape for many. I am going with the first option thankyou.

Torture does not enhance liberty. Banning criticism of religion does not enhance liberty.

Interestingly, you don't seem to consider stopping asylum seekers as an ultimate violation of liberty. Despite my views on religion, we should accept Chinese Catholic if they choose to come here. We should have welcomed the Marsh Arabs, the Kurds, the Bosnians, the Jews etc.

If we have a foreign policy that helps tyranny, we have a particular responsibility to intake any immigrants forced here by that tyranny. We send approximately a dozen asylum seekers back to their deaths every year. They're not dying of cancer. They're being shot by fascist paramilitaries in Columbia, and killed by Islamists in Somalia etc.

That is a scandal. When the Daily Mail said in 1938 that "the way stateless Jews from Germany are pouring into this country is an outrage", no doubt many of their readers agreed too. No doubt many believed the stories about Jews carrying diseases, exploiting our hospitality and committing evil crimes.

That doesn't stop innuendo against asylum seekers being lies. Most asylum seekers come from Zimbabwe, Afghanistan, Somalia and Iraq.

If we're going to allow British banks to have business in Zimbabwe, then we must accept any victims. There are two wars in Afghanistan, one is legitimate, and one is not.

It is precisely because I support the war in Afghanistan, that I am against the war in Iraq. I would've pressed for immediete intervention in Iraq, but provided a more accurate case about Saddam Hussein's thuggery, tyranny, and his real terrorism. But our lack of a multilateral coalition made me be against it-it's a Robin Cook reasoning if you will. In Afghanistan this is not the case, we are building roads, schools, and providing freedom for women. But there is a second war which prevents this from being successful: the war on drugs. I have a suggestion. If we find drugs so distasteful, why not buy the crops to destroy them? But Afghanistan has 60% of its GDP from opium. We cannot build up their other industries, if we suppress their main industry. So we must accept any victims.

I think it is the ultimate violation of liberty to refuse someone like Aung Sun Suu Kyi asylum.




Re: The real civil liberty scandals. (#3)

"Interestingly, you don't seem to consider stopping asylum seekers as an ultimate violation of liberty"

Yep! That's right.

 

"we should accept Chinese Catholic if they choose to come here. We should have welcomed the Marsh Arabs, the Kurds, the Bosnians, the Jews etc."

When do we stop? Do we allow the whole planet to come here? Theoretically, if we allocate 1 m2 per person then the whole population of the world can stand upright on the Isle of Wight, but it's not a sensible policy.

Why should we just allow anyone who wants to come here free entry? We have enough problems here and our own citizens to care for and look after



Re: The real civil liberty scandals. (#4)

Well, well. This is a quagmire. First of all, even for those who do leave their country, they're not all going to come here.

Most Zimbabwean asylum seekers go to South Africa. Most Chinese Catholic asylum seekers go to the United States. Most North Korean asylum seekers make a painstaking journey to get deported to South Korea.

Are you a paleoconservative? Are you a pacifist who doesn't want to give weapons to Bosnia to fight off invaders? Can you not bare the thought of sanctions? Then shut up, and allow the asylum seekers to come here.

If you are not going to intervene directly in Iraq, or if it goes horribly wrong when you do, when asylum seekers turn up on our doorstep, it is our responsibility if we are contributing to their misery.

Similarly, if you are not going to ban Total from pumping oil here, until they withdraw from lands of tyranny, then when Aung Sun Suu Kyi turns up on our doorstep, we cannot refuse her.

It is she, who embodies everything about freedom. It is the fact that she is a democratically elected Prime Minister, that embodies all fundamental liberties. That she sums up why freedom of speech is so fundamental.


You don't have a right to put a nail bomb in a Soho bar. You don't have a right to murder sex workers.


You do have a right to vote, and a right to free speech. Could you honestly claim that Aung Sun Suu Kyi would be a bogus asylum seeker? Maybe she'll commit benefit fraud, or spread MRSA, or bake a swan.


You don't have a right to believe, and say false things about asylum seekers, and then be suprised when the BNP does so well.


Imaginary Kurdish asylum seekers who are terrorists (in fact, the Kurds are one of the bravest groups of fighting off terrorists). 1 million illiegals are aparently streaming in every year (in fact, there are around 700,000 total illiegals in this country, and it isn't something to spite you, the vast majority of them are exploited, and are not aware of the complexities of the process of immigration). Oh, and asylum seekers are "hosed with benefits" according to the Murdoch-Daily Mail brigade, when they really receive £44 a week.


If you are so concerned about how we need to help our own folk (or is that volk?), then why not save us all a bit of money, and support ending state internment of asylum seekers.


If we don't accept asylum seekers immedietly, it leads to greater problems in the longer term. That's the problem with conservatism, it likes quick, snap short-term decisions. I'm thinking about the long term.


You have to accept one of several choices. Nimbies like Major couldn't. He stopped Bosnians from seeking asylum, but he wouldn't lift the arms embargo, he wouldn't place sanctions on Serbia, and he didn't intervene. That approach failed. Choose one, but don't spread innuendo about asylum seekers, if you won't consider the last three options. If so, like someone like Douglas Hurd, then you are a war criminal.

Re: The real civil liberty scandals. (#5)

"Are you a paleoconservative?"

No - I'm a libertarian and that's got NOTHING to do with liberals.

"Are you a pacifist who doesn't want to give weapons to Bosnia to fight off invaders?"

No. I believe that everyone should have the right to determine his or her own destiny. If that involves dying or fighting for their country then so be it.

Pacifism is a shifty doctrine that I'll have no truck with. They accrue protection from the rest of us putting our necks on the line whilst haranging us for our "moral weakness".

Personally I would arm the general Zimbabwean population to the teeth and let them get rid of Mugabe.

"Can you not bare the thought of sanctions? Then shut up, and allow the asylum seekers to come here."

Nothing wrong with sanctions - provided they hurt those doing wrong and not the general population.


"... intervene directly in Iraq, or if it goes horribly wrong when you do, when asylum seekers turn up on our doorstep, it is our responsibility if we are contributing to their misery."

On this one I agree with you. We (the UK) did things there and we have a responsibility to those to flocked to our cause. We DO owe them and the govt.s behaviour towards them has been disgraceful.


"...Total from pumping oil here, until they withdraw from lands of tyranny, then when Aung Sun Suu Kyi turns up on our doorstep, we cannot refuse her."

Err.... Total is a french company.


"You have to accept one of several choices. Nimbies like Major couldn't. He stopped Bosnians from seeking asylum, but he wouldn't lift the arms embargo, he wouldn't place sanctions on Serbia, and he didn't intervene. That approach failed. "

See my comment above about Zimbabwe.