Class and politics

Just a few thoughts on the role of class in politics. It seems to me that the traditional approach of the left to class is one that does us no favours.

For decades there has been a self-perpetuating belief that class is the primary divider in politics. When you think about this, it is actually a very negative idea. It says effectively, that the default for everyone is to vote according to their own self interest. I was struck by a comment in the discussion on Ellie Reeves elsewhere on this site that someone suggested that middle-class Labour activists simply saw it as a hobby. While I think this comment was not really meant totally seriously, it does highlight that many people still assume that we will all divide up along class and chose a party that would benefit us most.

But surely, the most core belief of the left is that we are not just all completly selfish and individualistic; that it is far better for us to work together for the benefit of all. There are often arguments that Labour could do well by shifting leftwards because of the number of working class people in this country. But to assume that people will vote for us just because they stand to benefit personally is to assume that those people don't have any kind of broader ideas about how they want society to be.

Equally, I believe that there is a strong argument to raise taxes on the wealthy, but I'm suspicious of a highly populist argument for this that because there are less of the wealthy, the many should exercise their vote and overwhelm them. This is a cynical view that implies it is impossible to ever convince those with money that stark inequality is a negative aspect to society.

Labour was of course founded to represent the working class, but we should be careful not to treat class issues as fundamentally different to those of say race or sex. The working class very much needed representation at the start of the century, and to a lesser degree still face many issues today that need specific attention. But we shouldn't assume that Labour must be the party "of the poor" and the Tories "of the wealthy" any more than we would expect men and women to split into two parties, each demanding changes to the tax system to benefit themselves.

The first stage of fairness is to prevent any group being discriminated against or exploited. The next is not for that group to try to assert further interests on selfish reasons, but to appeal to everyone with a positive vision of society. 



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Re: Class and politics (#1)

For decades there has been a self-perpetuating belief that class is the primary divider in politics. When you think about this, it is actually a very negative idea. It says effectively, that the default for everyone is to vote according to their own self interest.

That isn't negative, it's true. The most important thing in life is how you survive - buy food, have a home, get around, etc. This is dictated by the money you earn, and the way you earn that dictates your relationship to the means of production i.e. your class.

But surely, the most core belief of the left is that we are not just all completly selfish and individualistic; that it is far better for us to work together for the benefit of all.

No, the most core belief of the left (if there is one) is that by acting together, we (the majority, the working class) can improve our lot in life whether that is by more state-run industries or by workplace democracy or by a bloody revolution or whatever.

If people who are not working class i.e. employers want to throw their lot in with us then all the better, but we should not forget those core beliefs in chasing their money or votes, else we cease to be lefties.

Labour was of course founded to represent the working class, but we should be careful not to treat class issues as fundamentally different to those of say race or sex.

But they are fundamentally different. Capitalism - the system of employers and employees - is the defining pillar of our society because it dictates our working lives and the control we therefore have over the rest of our lives. That is not to play down the importance of race or sex issues but they are not the central definition of our society.

But we shouldn't assume that Labour must be the party "of the poor" and the Tories "of the wealthy" any more than we would expect men and women to split into two parties, each demanding changes to the tax system to benefit themselves.

Labour is not the party "of the poor" and nor should it be. We should be the party of the working class, the underclass, and those parts of the middle class which have most in common with the working class. If we did that effectively we would have a majority in every election contested nationally.

The first stage of fairness is to prevent any group being discriminated against or exploited.

If that's the case then let's abolish capitalism: the most discriminating and exploiting system that exists. Then we can worry about what to do next.

Re: Class and politics (#2)

"If that's the case then let's abolish capitalism: the most discriminating and exploiting system that exists. Then we can worry about what to do next."

And then we'll join all those other societies that abolished capitalism - in the history books. Capitalism works that's why it survives.  Even China has had to allow some elements of capitalism. It was that or collapse.

Re: Class and politics (#3)

I can't think of any societies that have abolished capitalism off the top of my head. Certainly none of the eastern bloc countries managed it.

I wasn't posting that up as a serious suggestion for the next Labour manifesto, just replying to a point already made. We can stop struggling against class-based discrimination when class exploitation ceases to exist. Until then it's the most important fight that exists.

Re: Class and politics (#4)

I think Pol Pot in Cambodia made the most determined onslaught on capitalism when the Khmer Rouge blew up the banks. The consequences of that particular experiment must give food for thought for any advocate of utopian communism.

That's not an argument for giving up on any kind of socialism and joining the neo-liberals of course. But I know you weren't suggesting it seriously for the manifesto, as you say!

Re: Class and politics (#5)

Thanks for the response. It seems slightly though that you're skirting around my central poin - the distinction between supporting a party because you personally stand to benefit if they get elected and supporting a party because you support their principles.

You say that the core belief of the left is that the majority can improve their lot by working together. Does that mean for example that to cut back on support for the homeless and to transfer the money saved to tax cuts for ordinary people would be left wing? It would be the majority acting to improve their lot, and the homeless are a minority that are fairly distinct from the traditional working class.

Do you not think the fact that at least 25% of workers have voted for the party that is least likely to have benefited them the least for 140 years, ever since workers were given the vote, suggests that the idea that we can rely on working class support is a little shaky?

Also, do you not see any irony in trying to get people to support a change to a less selfish economic system by appealing to highly selfish motives? We should be able to attack unfettered capitalism by arguing that it is against basic notions of fairness and justice, which are arguments that apply to anyone, not just those with the most to gain personally.

Re: Class and politics (#6)

It seems slightly though that you're skirting around my central poin - the distinction between supporting a party because you personally stand to benefit if they get elected and supporting a party because you support their principles.

The two are, or should be, the same. It is morally correct to support a party which enacts policies for the benefit of the majority who suffer economically under the present system.

You say that the core belief of the left is that the majority can improve their lot by working together. Does that mean for example that to cut back on support for the homeless and to transfer the money saved to tax cuts for ordinary people would be left wing? It would be the majority acting to improve their lot, and the homeless are a minority that are fairly distinct from the traditional working class.

No, in case you didn't get it I stated that the Labour Party should act in the cause of the majority who suffer economically under the present system.

Do you not think the fact that at least 25% of workers have voted for the party that is least likely to have benefited them the least for 140 years, ever since workers were given the vote, suggests that the idea that we can rely on working class support is a little shaky?

If you define the working class as EVERYONE who suffers under the current economic system (working class doesn't just mean miners, builders etc) then you wouldn't need anything like 100% support. Rule out big business owners and their senior managers and you'll have a pretty big coalition.

Also, do you not see any irony in trying to get people to support a change to a less selfish economic system by appealing to highly selfish motives? We should be able to attack unfettered capitalism by arguing that it is against basic notions of fairness and justice, which are arguments that apply to anyone, not just those with the most to gain personally.

Not really. Capitalism is unfair because those who do the work creating/moving/administering the things we need do not benefit fully from that. When seeking to reform or replace that system we should be unsurprised that those with the most to lose (and there aren't that many of them) will fight tooth and nail. Just take a look at the majority of British newspaper owners...

Re: Class and politics (#7)

I'm just going to focus on the first  part of your post there, because it's the crux of my argument. If someone is losing out under a certain system, then a motivation to change the system that derives from a complete desire to improve their own lot and a motivation that the system is unfair can lead to similar stances, but they are not the same.

Best example of this: someone with the first motivation is likely to be reluctant to support government money going on foreign aid, because they stand to gain nothing from that. Someone with the second motivation will support it, because they are concerned with fairness, not just their own interests.

Re: Class and politics (#8)

Someone with the first motivation would support government money going on foreign aid if they are truly interested in helping ALL those who suffer under the system, not just those in this country.

Re: Class and politics (#9)

Then they are acting from the 2nd - they are not just acting in their own self interest, but out of principle. This is my point. We shouldn't be trying to appeal to people just by saying to them "you personally will benefit from this," we should appeal to a higher argument - that as you say, society has a duty to help "ALL those who suffer."

Re: Class and politics (#10)

And those who suffer are the global working class.

This thread seems to be swirling round the plughole of semantics.

Re: Class and politics (#11)

Probably a bit late but I just found this quote from Marx which sums up what I was trying to say:

"In the view of these gentlemen, the Social Democratic Party ought not to be a one-sided workers' party but a many-sided party of ’all men imbued with a true love of mankind’. This it is to prove, above all, by divesting itself of crude proletarian passions and applying itself, under the direction of educated philanthropic bourgeois, ’to the formation of good taste’ and ’the acquisition of good manners’.... As for their Socialist import, this has already been adequately criticised in the Manifesto, Chapter: ’German’, or ’True Socialism’. Whenever the class struggle is thrust aside as a distasteful, ’crude’ manifestation, the only basis still left to Socialism will be a ’true love of mankind’ and empty phrases about ’justice’....

"When people of this kind, from different classes, join the proletarian movement, the first requirement is that they should not bring with them the least remnant of bourgeois, petty-bourgeois, etc, prejudices, but should unreservedly adopt a proletarian outlook.... We cannot possibly cooperate with men who seek to eliminate that class struggle from the movement."<sup>15</sup>