Hoist them by their own petard

TonyH Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 03:52:45 PM GMT Print-friendly version Facebook

Colleagues, I hope we’re paying attention and taking note of what the Tories say and write these days. To avoid complete hypocrisy - the criticism they level at the Government now, should be the standard they are rigidly held to later.

If we do, the next Tory government could be a one term affair - unless of course the Tories are genuine - which I doubt.



If they win the next election they will never ever be able to take credit for falling crime (if indeed it does fall) because they say the British Crime Survey is flawed.

If they try to claim credit – we should plaster all our communications with their criticism now which will show their hypocrisy later.

It’s not just on crime either, they will have to enact legislation which prevents people taking on a certain level of debt. To not do that betrays incredible hypocrisy for all the comments about Britain’s economy being built on “Brown’s pile of debt”.

They will have to remove all equality officers, massively reduce the level of tax on petrol and never write a Budget which will affect those caught up in the 10p tax row. They’d have to abide by the golden rule or write a better one. They, for the first time, would also have to “set aside money in the good times” while fully funding public services – if they don’t, we should maul them for the duplicity.

There would be a couple of things that, if they did them, I’d actually be very pleased – abandoning the ID card scheme (which they proposed when Michael Howard was Home Secretary) and repealing the provision for 42 day detention without trial…but will they? I suspect not. Let’s wait to see their manifesto.

Not to do each and every one of these will be proven, brazen hypocrisy which has been recorded on a level never seen before, we’ll see how the British people feel when it's exposed to them.

Are there any examples that I'm missing? I think we should log them for the future.

tags: , , (all tags)

Display: Sort:
Hoist them by their own petard | 28 comments (28 topical)

Re: Hoist them by their own petard (#1)

by TrueLabour on Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 07:13:43 PM GMT

Yes let us hold the Tories to account for the Welfare changes that the Labour Govt are proposing.

"work for the dole" initiative, the reassessing of all incapacity benefit claimants, "welfare to work" for existing incapacity claimants, and paying voluntary and private sector providers of back-to-work assistance.

http://tinyurl.com/5uv9of

 

 

 


Re: Hoist them by their own petard (#2)

by London Lad on Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 07:59:45 PM GMT

Are you intending to hold this Labour Government to the same standards or just the Tories?

 


Re: Hoist them by their own petard (#3)

by TonyH on Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 08:15:25 PM GMT

I and others already do. Like the comment above for example.


[ Parent ]

Re: Hoist them by their own petard (#4)

by swatantra on Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 09:18:07 PM GMT

Of course the Tories wouldn't reverse any of the measures Labour have put in place. The administration for them is already in place and it would be too costly to abandon or reverse them; and some of the measures won't take effect until a year or two anyway. Labour and the Tories seem to be agreed on one thing, Welfare Reform, and are suggesting introducing 'workfare' and I would support the Govt in this. But all this is hypothetical because the Tories don't sound too convincing at the moment and won't win the next GE. It's likely to be a hung Parliament.


[ Parent ]

Re: Hoist them by their own petard (#5)

by antibloodsports on Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 09:38:55 PM GMT

There will be no hung parliament if the polls are anywhere like they are now.


[ Parent ]

Re: Hoist them by their own petard (#8)

by treborc on Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 11:57:16 PM GMT

27 October 2008 is the start of Workfare, I've already had notice i will be expected to attend a new medical, this will be number twelve, guess what the new medical will say the same as the others, yes his legs are still missing, but of course the worse part on October 27th I will lose £45 from my benefits, this is because Labour are reducing IB to a new benefit called ESA, I will be £45 a week worse off.

What did you  say about the Tories.


[ Parent ]

Re: Hoist them by their own petard (#6)

by NB on Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 09:59:53 PM GMT

At least thinking about the next Tory government is realistic.  But the key question is how to avoid a Labour wipeout.


Re: Hoist them by their own petard (#7)

by twblackwell on Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 11:14:59 PM GMT

With respect, wake up everyone. 

If the Tories come to power they will be able to do pretty much whatever they want.  They will have a mandate: arguments like this will only hold, and then only slightly, when they are deep in their administration. 

However difficult it is for some commentators on LabourHome to accept, surely better to keep a Labour government?


Re: Hoist them by their own petard (#11)

by NB on Sat Jul 19, 2008 at 08:13:59 AM GMT

There is no realistic prospect of keeping a Labour Govt.  The question is whether Labour will be an effective opposition or an ineffectual and discredited rump after the next election.


[ Parent ]

Re: Hoist them by their own petard (#9)

by treborc on Sat Jul 19, 2008 at 12:02:28 AM GMT

What a stupid thing to say, this is not a Labour party Brown is so far away from being Labour it hurts. Why should anyone vote Labour, why do you think people are on strike, why the disabled are worried sick about living,and you say we should still vote for it because it's Labour is it


Re: Hoist them by their own petard (#10)

by twblackwell on Sat Jul 19, 2008 at 01:09:39 AM GMT

Not on my evidence of what this Labour government has in for my area - you may have your own opinion based on your experience.

Apart from the usual litany listing remonstrances against the hard choices any Labour government has to make when in power, please tell me what positive policies you would promote now for our next mainfesto?


[ Parent ]

Re: Hoist them by their own petard (#12)

by madasafish on Sat Jul 19, 2008 at 04:31:34 PM GMT

Policies for next election:
Fulfil the current ones outstanding first:-

No more Tory boom and bust.
Prudence in Government borrowing
No unfunded election promises.
Education, education, education.
Tough on crime ,,,

Bring back soldiers from Iraq by Christmas (2008)

Referendum on the EC Treaty.


There you are: all good Labour policies and promises..


Re: Hoist them by their own petard (#13)

by Simon R on Sun Jul 20, 2008 at 09:44:34 PM GMT

I am a Conservative supporter, and I have some affection for the trappings -Pitt, Disraeli and all that, but the bottom line is the prosperity, security, well being and freedom of this country. If I thought Labour was delivering these things, and the Tories couldn't or wouldn't, I would have no hesitation in voting for Labour, and that's after living under them for 10 years. I don't care about the colour of rosette, it's about the content. When New Labour came to power, young teen that I was, I was genuinely excited, because despite my Tory sympathies I knew they were stale and I believed in Tony Blair (who didn't at that stage?). I wonder how many of you could genuinely say you have the same outlook?

Obviously the writer of this article, who in the face of some indisputably good ideas and policies, doubts the Tories are 'genuine'. One assumes that you mean they are pretending that they will form an effective Government, when their actual intention is to form an inneffective one. Because in the wonderful simplicity of your mindset, anyone who is a Tory is an evil, lying bigot, and everyone who supports Labour is a paragon of virtue.
Are things so good in this country at the moment that you really want them to continue? I mean deep deep down, do you really believe a change of government would be a bad thing? I can't believe anyone who wasn't willfully deluding themselves could think that. Or do you simply want your side to win, for better or worse?

Of course the incoming Tory Government will make mistakes and need to be held to account. And I am sure that whatever is left of the Labour Party will be a very effective opposition -some would say they have been behaving as an opposition for 10 years, so they should have enough practise. But the Tories could also do alot of good, not least sorting out the catastrophic state of our public finances. If I were a Labour supporter, I'd wish them success. Not least so the coffers are nice and full for the next Labour Government to come in and p*** it up against the wall again.


Re: Hoist them by their own petard (#14)

by jkitleft on Sun Jul 20, 2008 at 11:36:36 PM GMT

I support Labour, and not just out of mindless loyalty.

It's the question of thinking back, and I mean REALLY thinking back. I have grown up on the NHS. I was born during the 1992 election campaign, and with a heart condition. The year Labour came to power, an operation to fix it was found. So I know that these waiting lists are no lie. I have been in the hospitals year on year. I have seen them improve. I have seen how nurses spend more time with their patients, how drugs get to the patients faster, how care is better.

In schools, one in five more students can read properly at 11. I have seen how my education has improved, because I had to travel half way across Cornwall to get specialist help, as I had an SEN condition. But this early intervention helped, and there were many more of these specialist places after Labour came in, and schools where I lived looked better, felt better, and consequently were better in terms of results.


[ Parent ]

Re: Hoist them by their own petard (#15)

by HHemmelig on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 02:56:15 AM GMT

jkitleft-

"It's the question of thinking back, and I mean REALLY thinking back"

I have admiration for a lot of what you post on here, but given that you are barely 16 years old this comment is a bit ridiculous.  You will personally be able to think back hardly at all in a political sense given your young age.  You aren't even old enough to vote for heaven's sake and probably vote even be old enough to at the next election.

Those of us who have lived as adults through both Tory and Labour governments, and don't have such a strong party allegiance, know that the truth is more balanced than you make out.  The NHS has undoubtedly improved since the 1980s and 1990s but it certainly hasn't improved as much as it should have given how much extra money it has received.  The extra investment was only possible because of the long-term beneficial effects of the economic policies implemented by Mrs Thatcher.

"I have seen how my education has improved"

Another absurd statement.  How can you have seen how your education has improved compared to under the Tories when you would have been barely old enough to have been at nursery school when Major got kicked out of office.  And you have not yet had any personal experience of the decline in standards of A levels and university degrees that have continued over the past 10 years.  How can anyone say the introduction of tuition fees is an improvement?

The British people are fair people and give political parties more than one term in government, unless they screw up big-time, and this will apply to Cameron as well.


[ Parent ]

Re: Hoist them by their own petard (#16)

by jkitleft on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 01:44:29 PM GMT

It's not as rediculous as it sounds.

I grew up in Cornwall. I went to a very small school. But year on year, there were more books, classes were broken up, to have a smaller student to teacher ration, there was more equipment etc.


But what evidence do you have to say A-level standards are decreasing?

The whole point about modules and coursework was to make life easier for people who weren't as good at exams.

When the Engineering Council convened in 2000, they pretty much all agreed that mathematical skills had declined.

But if we are to ease people's worries, we should first make results more transparent. Switch the letter grading system over to a percentage grading system. This way, it s easier for people to differentiate between A graders and B graders.

I honestly think though, that the worries about A-level standards is hyperbolic.


[ Parent ]

Re: Hoist them by their own petard (#17)

by Floating voter on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 06:56:58 PM GMT

"But what evidence do you have to say A-level standards are decreasing?"

I did my A-Levels in 1980 and in my subjects - Maths, Physics and Chemistry - the current papers are like warm-up questions. The main culprit is this educational lunacy that everyone must have a broad education. WTF? We need specialists and a doctor who can discuss poetry but doesn't know his anatomy is no d*mn use. 

I work in IT and I interview for other companies. One factor is strikingly clear. The younger candidates (and we are talking degree level as a minimum) lack a depth of knowledge about their subject. They can discuss anything in general but the minute you ask anything detailed - and I mean things that they should have done as part of the degree - then you get the blank stare.

I spend the first few months teaching these people the things they need to know. Alternatively we interview foreign students. Recently we did 5 from Afghanistan  and they were of a much better quality.

Our education system is failing our own people and  that's a disgrace. And don't blame the tories. Everyone under the age of 16 has only had a labour govt in charge. The 22 year old graduates have had their entire secondary schooling under labour. The evil tories have been out of it for years.


[ Parent ]

Re: Hoist them by their own petard (#18)

by Floating voter on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 07:32:01 PM GMT

"The whole point about modules and coursework was to make life easier for people who weren't as good at exams."

Well then - maybe those people shouldn't be doing those sorts of exams. Maybe they would be better served by apprenticeships, on-the-job training and vocational work. People differ and have different abilities and talents.

 

"But if we are to ease people's worries, we should first make results more transparent. Switch the letter grading system over to a percentage grading system. This way, it s easier for people to differentiate between A graders and B graders."

It used to be done by adjusting the grades. To illustrate the point (and I'm making these numbers up) the top 10% of marks would be grade A,  the next 10% would be grade B, and so forth. This had three implications:

  • If a year's paper was harder than the average then the actual "pass mark" for each grade would be lower that year and vice versa. 

  • You were guaranteed to be able to pick out the best people. Grades A and B really meant something special had been achieved.

  • Some people were guaranteed to fail 

 

I think that this was a more honest system than the current one because it evened out differences in hardness in the papers and the grading structure ensured a consistency from year to year. Unfortunately this system was also prone to political meddling by simply widening the bands so that more pass, more get A & Bs. That mostly happened under the tories.


[ Parent ]

Re: Hoist them by their own petard (#19)

by TonyH on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 05:55:50 PM GMT

It's a fair point that it's Country first, party second. I very much believe that. I'm a democrat and I think there should be a choice of competent, enthusiastic, open minded and progressive political parties.

I have my doubts about the direction of the Labour Party under the current premiership and doubts about the potential Tory administration. If you read around this site and you'll find plenty of criticism of the Party - no "mindless loyalty" here.

I have no doubt that the ideal situation is a competent Labour administration and that’s what I advocate (and one shouldn’t be surprised if I advocate it on a site called “LabourHome”).

The reason I’m doubtful Cameron is genuine (and many’s the Tory agree with me – but for very different reasons) is that he sits on the sideline playing the safe game while vaporing ambiguously about what a Tory government would do.

He was nowhere on Northern Rock, nowhere on the 10p tax (until it caught press attention and preferring instead to champion rich foreigners and entrepreneurs on the CGT changes), he was nowhere on knife crime and has perpetuated the base, broken right-wing hyperbole about a “broken society”, helping to frighten up votes.

We made progress, perhaps not enough, but we made progress on education – so they slate the exam difficulty. We made progress on crime – so they deny the crime surveys and trust the Daily Mail narrative. Divorces are at a 30 year low, yet they say the family can be bolstered by £20 a week.

He send out John Redwood and Nigel Lawson to working policy groups to report back to the press some “possible” Tory policies and supports the ones that the press supports – all the while deriding us for “spinning”.

He is undoubtedly an honourable man, undoubtedly a patriot and undoubtedly the most palatable Tory we’ve seen for years but to pretend he is not also a hypocrite playing the same political game of connivance and avoidance is just flat out wrong.

The point of the post was to make the next Tory government regret where it made unfair criticism. To hold it to the near impossible standard it has screeched at our unpopular clown of a PM.

To be fair to Brown, he’s the one holding the baby at the minute and has the responsibility of his actions. Cameron has the responsibility of tomorrow’s newspapers and appears to act accordingly.


[ Parent ]

Re: Hoist them by their own petard (#20)

by Floating voter on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 07:05:04 PM GMT

"The reason I’m doubtful Cameron is genuine (and many’s the Tory agree with me – but for very different reasons) is that he sits on the sideline playing the safe game while vaporing ambiguously about what a Tory government would do."

I know what you mean, but to be fair to Cameron, if he commits to a policy now under current conditions, the media will hold him to it regardless of conditions when (if?) he gets in. I'm not surprised he says as little as possible because in his position I would do the same. Why box yourself into a corner unnecessarily?

Of course, Labour help him no end by "nicking" his policies - or at least giving him the opportunity of accusing them of doing so. In that respect, Darling and the Inheritance Tax debacle and James Purnell with welfare reform are Cameron's biggest allies. I'm sure they're on his Xmas card list!


[ Parent ]

Re: Hoist them by their own petard (#21)

by TonyH on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 02:14:39 PM GMT

if he commits to a policy now under current conditions, the media will hold him to it regardless of conditions when (if?) he gets in.

Ok - but then he should simply explain that the situation has changed. As Brown had to do. In Government however, you get the media and the Opposition screeching about "U-Turns!! U-Turns!!!" and rationality and perspective is lost.

I'm not saying that all criticism of Brown is invalid but my suspicion of Cameron (and I did pay some tribute to him) is that he's playing his part in the game and then pretending he's above it. He'll be found out.

On the nicking ideas - six to one, half dozen to the other. Purnell's proposals come from a report commissioned by Blair. The non-Dom proposal was in the consultation of Brown's last Budget before Osborne had it.

You'll find that pretty much everything mentioned by either party over the next couple of years was suggested somewhere before at some level.


[ Parent ]

Re: Hoist them by their own petard (#22)

by Floating voter on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 02:33:11 PM GMT

"Ok - but then he should simply explain that the situation has changed. As Brown had to do. In Government however, you get the media and the Opposition screeching about "U-Turns!! U-Turns!!!" and rationality and perspective is lost."

But explaining it still hasn't done Brown any good. The only plus for Cameron is that he wouldn't have the opposition yelling at him for the first 6 to 12 months as they would be (probably) riven by internal dissension.

 

"You'll find that pretty much everything mentioned by either party over the next couple of years was suggested somewhere before at some level."

Indeed. As journalists say, there's nothing new under the sun. 


[ Parent ]

Re: Hoist them by their own petard (#23)

by TonyH on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 04:15:45 PM GMT

But explaining it still hasn't done Brown any good.

So you see (at least some) our frustration?

As journalists say, there's nothing new under the sun. 

I like it. ;-)


[ Parent ]

Re: Hoist them by their own petard (#24)

by Floating voter on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 07:46:42 PM GMT

"So you see (at least some) our frustration?"

Oh yes! It's also why I understand Cameron's stance. It applies to just about every politician of every colour. Some decent journalists are needed rather than reportage hacks....


[ Parent ]

Re: Hoist them by their own petard (#25)

by Floating voter on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 07:50:05 PM GMT

"So you see (at least some) our frustration?"

Oh yes! It's also why I understand Cameron's position. It applies to just about every politican of every colour. What we need are journalists rather than reportage hacks...


[ Parent ]

Re: Hoist them by their own petard (#26)

by Floating voter on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 07:51:09 PM GMT

How did that happen? It didn't post it the first time!

Weird!


[ Parent ]

Re: Hoist them by their own petard (#27)

by ChrisPaul on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 10:23:17 PM GMT

We must strain every sinew to keep the Conservatives out. With nearly two years to go it is way too early to lose faith in the winnability of the next election. Major didn't lose faith despite all the polling to 1992 and he kept us out in a pretty decisive way. Heart breaking. This is what we need Cameron and his crew to feel in the days and weeks after the next general election.

Underlying the second worst Populus Poll for us, this very month - the worst being June - was the following:

Asked which party they'd like to see in government 44% said one thing and 42% said another. All to play for then.

But can you remind yourselves which way round this was - just two weeks ago - and go back to your constituencies and plan ways to out-work your opponents, to dust off the electoral roll for some rarely worked EDs, to out-wit your opponents, and to squeeze third and fourth and fifth parties so that the 44% get their way.

Planning to lose however narrowly in 2010 and then see to it that the Conservatives are tipped out at the first opportunity is BLOODY STUPID.

The electorate will turn on a sixpence even over a couple of weeks. They last did this in October 2007.

They could do it again anytime that we get our act together and don't let the media let the sleazy Tories off the hook time after time after time.

We desperately need someone like Campbell right now. Campbell himself would be fine. And we need to stop feeling sorry for ourselves. Stop making the worst of our own party's policies. Stop letting the opposition off the hook by turning on our own.

 

 

 


Re: Hoist them by their own petard (#28)

by madasafish on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 05:38:30 AM GMT

Chris Paul is right: never give up.

But judging by the way Ministers act, you think there is a death wish.

One thing that really grates is the refusla to acknowledge mistakes and take responsibility. Michale Howard and prison escapes was a classic. After that I lost any  little respect I might have had for him. as for Ed Balls and the SATS fiasco.. the man is making himslef look a prize idiot. If the Government were run like a business, he'd be fired at once: not for the mistake - which is human - but the refusal to accept any responsibility.

Tired and arrogant  .


Hoist them by their own petard | 28 comments (28 topical)