Alex Salmond and Islamic Extremism

For the Union Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 03:51:21 PM GMT Print-friendly version Facebook

alex and osama
 
This is the Scottish First Minister with his candidate for Glasgow - Osama Saeed - THE face of islam in Scotland. He also happens to be a fundamentalist.



He argues for the creation of the Islamic Caliphate (ONE nation of all Muslims) - of course, nation and WORLD are interchangeable in their line of thought.

It must be exposed - the FM gave the Scottish Islamic Foundation (of which, Saeed is CEO) £215,000. The First Minister is giving his backing - politically and financially.

www.snpwatch.com



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Alex Salmond and Islamic Extremism | 20 comments (20 topical)

Re: Alex Salmond and Islamic Extremism (#1)

by e10rifles on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 04:44:29 PM GMT

He argues for the creation of the Islamic Caliphate (ONE nation of all Muslims) - of course, nation and WORLD are interchangeable in their line of thought.

I get the first part of that sentence - it's easily enough googlable - but would appreciate a source being provided for the second i.e. that this chap wants a global Islamic caliphate.


Re: Alex Salmond and Islamic Extremism (#2)

by For the Union on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 04:56:33 PM GMT

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2005/nov/01/religion.world

 


Re: Alex Salmond and Islamic Extremism (#3)

by e10rifles on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 05:08:09 PM GMT

Yes, I read that first time. It doesn't anywhere conflate the Islamic world with the world.

Can you back that up with any evidence?


[ Parent ]

Re: Alex Salmond and Islamic Extremism (#4)

by For the Union on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 05:14:57 PM GMT

The following excerpt from the Qur'an, known as the 'The Istikhlaf Verse', forms the basis of the Quranic concept of Caliphate:

"Allah has promised to those among you who believe and do good works that He will surely make them Successors (Khalifas) in the earth, as He made Successors (Khalifas) from among those who were before them; and that He will surely establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them; and that He will surely give them in exchange security and peace after their fear: They will worship Me, and they will not associate anything with Me. Then who so is ungrateful after that, they will be the rebellious."[24:55] (Surah Al-Nur, Verse 55)

 So govern between the people by that which God has revealed (Islam), and follow not their vain desires, beware of them in case they seduce you from just some part of that which God has revealed to you. - <sup>Qur'an 004:049</sup>

 


Re: Alex Salmond and Islamic Extremism (#5)

by e10rifles on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 05:20:11 PM GMT

I didn't ask for a quote from the Quran, I asked for proof that THIS PERSON who Salmond is all chummy with wants a global Islamic caliphate. Any chance of that?

If you can't provide it I'm afraid it looks rather like you're sunk to minority-baiting in your desperation to attack the SNP.


[ Parent ]

Re: Alex Salmond and Islamic Extremism (#6)

by For the Union on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 05:25:29 PM GMT

To quote Saeed - "The vision of any kind of new caliphate, shared by Muslims worldwide, is a distant one. Right now, even talk of bringing down trade barriers and free flow of people across Muslim states seems radical. But it is a vision that is needed,"

Caliphate = One islamic nation - one ruler for all muslims. 1.2 billion, all the oil in the world and a penchant for dictators, human rights abuses and general despotism - follow the thoughts....

Read up on the Umayyad dynasty and you will see the threat - do you think they want to stop at the middle east?


Re: Alex Salmond and Islamic Extremism (#8)

by e10rifles on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 07:44:09 PM GMT

So in other words, there is nothing you can find to suggest he favours anything other than a USA-style one nation for all Muslims.

 That is rather different to the nation = WORLD in your original posting, isn't it?

Spare me the whinging about extremists - this is politics of the gutter and gives our party a bad name.

 


[ Parent ]

Re: Alex Salmond and Islamic Extremism (#7)

by For the Union on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 06:04:08 PM GMT

"minority-baiting" - what a pathetically predictable attack - common form for extremists (along with racism, BNP and crusade....)


Re: Alex Salmond and Islamic Extremism (#9)

by For the Union on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 07:53:32 PM GMT

I give up on your appeasement - an Islamic caliphate would be the most horrendous threat to world peace ever.

Politics of the gutter (BNP) would be attacking him because he is Muslim (which is abhorrent) - however, exposing his outrageous anti-western views must be done. 

Can you imagine the POWER (military, economic, people) of a nation of islam? We all know which one of our allies would be in that nations sights.  


Re: Alex Salmond and Islamic Extremism (#10)

by e10rifles on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 07:57:05 PM GMT

Appeasement - the usual word used by neoconservatives to attack anyone who defende Muslims from their attacks.

 I have no doubt that this bloke's politics would be horrible to me, and as an international socialist I favour no borders or nations at all in an ideal world, but your initial posting was a disgraceful attack on Salmond based on being photographed with a conservative Muslim. The overt content and covert implication of the posting is obvious. It's disgusting and I'm ashamed to see it on a Labour website.

 


[ Parent ]

Re: Alex Salmond and Islamic Extremism (#11)

by e10rifles on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 07:58:06 PM GMT

Oh and which nation are you referring to?

 If you mean the US or Israel I would rather disassociate this country and party from being a natural "ally" of either in terms of foreign policy.

 


[ Parent ]

Re: Alex Salmond and Islamic Extremism (#12)

by For the Union on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:07:00 PM GMT

Pacifism and world peace - dreams of the fringe lunatic left.

I am actually left of centre. Salmond is first minister of Scotland, Osama Saeed is his candidate for Glasgow - he must support what Saeed thinks otherwise why would he be an SNP candidate?

I think that deserves exposing. 

 

 


Re: Alex Salmond and Islamic Extremism (#14)

by e10rifles on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:36:39 PM GMT

You're obviously a bit of a nutter if you don't think peace is something worth pursuing. But it doesn't come as much of a surprise.

As you haven't backed up your initial assertions and innuendo, I can only assume you have another agenda or are simply a trainee tabloid journalist testing out material on us.

 


[ Parent ]

Re: Alex Salmond and Islamic Extremism (#15)

by For the Union on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:47:24 PM GMT

Peace should always come first - but realism suggests that world peace is impossible.

Peace and Caliphate don't mix - it runs completely counter to our national security.

 


[ Parent ]

Re: Alex Salmond and Islamic Extremism (#16)

by e10rifles on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:44:25 PM GMT

Who started talking about world peace? Are you imagining things I haven't mentioned?

 Also, national security is a fictitious concept based on the nonsense of a 'national interest'. There is security for us and our class, nationally and internationally. And insecurity, which is what we currently have.

 


[ Parent ]

Re: Alex Salmond and Islamic Extremism (#13)

by jkitleft on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:23:48 PM GMT

An Islamic caliphate would combine two of the things I most hate-superstition and tyranny.


I don't like it when people call BNP far right fundamentalists by the appropriate name, but call Islamists (note, I did not say Muslims) who would support the murder of gays, Jews, atheists, secularists, and the subjugation of women 'conservatives'.

Islamists are fascists. Most muslims are not. But, Islam needs an enlightenment. Christianity and Judaism, while not seeing much change in views at the top, now have diverse views amongst the adherents. I have Catholic friends who are liberal with regards to contraception and homosexuality.

I also have Muslim friends who have liberal views. They are mainly women. One of them, I am scared for, because she is a very bright, hilarious, confident woman, who wants to make anime. But her ultra-conservative Saudi father is trying, imo, to limit this individuality.

We can't simply say, that Islamism is all the fault of foreign policy. I can't imagine that Osama Bin Laden will declare peace if we withdraw from Iraq and Afghanistan. We are funding it with oil though. 50 years ago, we suppressed democracy in the name of oil. So the only opposition in many Arab dictatorships was from Islamist parties e.g. in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Uzbekistan etc.

I don't think that terrorists say 'Well I didn't want to attack you, but.....'. Look at the trial of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. He refuses to have a lawyer which signs up to the US constitution, because it doesn't ban homosexuality. It is an ideology. It isn't a single-issue cause. If it was, then Bin Laden wouldn't have said that the worst act commited in the West was Bill Clinton having consensual oral sex. If it was, then Bin Laden wouldn't say that he wanted Spain as part of a caliphate.

Islam needs to reform. So do the other religions, but adherents with different views are not afraid to speak out in some of these religions. I have no problem with people who have a 'faith', a private belief in God. It is only when people describe belief in God as a doctrine, with ideas about how people should live their lives, that all religions become dangerous.

Irshad Manji and others are doing a fantastic job at seeking reform. But we cannot treat it differently from the other religions, excusing the fundamentalists if we have some how 'offended' them. Salman Rushdie did not invent the 'Satanic Verses'. It is a concept well known in Islam, where fundamentalists have justified the moment when the Archangel Gabriel mandates that Muslims should accept other religions, as a moment when Satan actually disguised himself as the Archangel Gabriel. An insane person questioned the teachings of Mohammed.

The book also described Thatcher as 'Mrs.Torture'. Rushdie was also known to criticise Israel frequently. How was he treated? He once turned on a TV to find a BBC audience deciding that yes, he should die, after the fatwa was issued from the Ayatollah.

It is not socialists to apply different standards to one religion from the other. I don't refrain from criticising fundamentalist attitudes in Christianity, particuarly on medecine and contraception. I'm disgusted by the innuendo about the medical miracle, that is the cervical cancer vaccination. Or their opposition to opt-out organ donation (they can choose not to donate organs under that system), and their fundamentalism in commiting an act akin to genocide, when they spread lies about condoms in the Third World. They don't just say it is 'immoral', but they make up lies about contraception, and if you are an uneducated, vunerable African, you're probably going to believe them.

I also criticise the use of circumcision, and the Orthodox hatred of women in Judaism, and fundamentalism in the Eastern religions.

But, we can't assume Islam is a race. Communism was seen to be set a beliefs in the West, Christianity was seen to be a set of beliefs. All Muslims aren't brown skinned. Islam is simply a set of beliefs, and we have to differentiate this from the adherents, and their own beliefs.

Attacking Islam is not racist. Neither is attacking Christianity or any other religion.



Re: Alex Salmond and Islamic Extremism (#17)

by Free Radical on Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 12:03:48 AM GMT

JK

I think there is a huge problem with your use of the word "Islamism":

"Islamists are fascists. Most muslims are not. But, Islam needs an enlightenment. Christianity and Judaism, while not seeing much change in views at the top, now have diverse views amongst the adherents."

Obviously all Muslims follow Islam, so I am sure that many will find your use of the term Islamism deeply offensive. Furthermore your quote, above, grossly oversimplifies things - there are many strands of Islam, as I am sure you know. I suggest you be much more specific in your use of terminology.

I think what you are probably talking about is Wahhabism (or Wahabiism), a particularly conservative strand of Islam associated with Saudi Arabia.

You are not alone in this kind of loose use of terminology. The media are full of it. "Islamist" is used sometimes to mean Wahhabism and sometimes to refer to supporters of Al Qaeda. I think it is offensive.

Similarly I think the conflation of  "Islamism" and fascism is another rather sloppy use of language. Fascism has a particular pedigree - rooted in European history and culture, harking back to classical motifs, neopagan often - typified of course by the Italian and German fascism of the 1930s and their latterday adherents and descendents, such as the BNP. Philosophically it can be characterised by a rejection of reason and of certain Enlightenment values, a certain relativism, and an influence of people like Heidegger and Nietzsche.

I think it is very unhelpful to further conflate "Islamism" (by which you probably mean "Wahhabism" or "Bin Ladenism"?) with "fascism."

What I would grant is that Al Qaeda is essentially a modern (even post-modern) phenomenon, but politically and philosophically it has little to do with fascism in my opinion.


[ Parent ]

Re: Alex Salmond and Islamic Extremism (#18)

by jkitleft on Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 01:43:58 AM GMT

I don't think there are many strands of religions, but there are numerous beliefs amongst individual adherents. This allows for diversity in terms of views. But when these books were written, people didn't say, this was the gospel for the Methodists, the Catholics, the Protestants etc. Often, holy scriptures are just used to justify personal views.


Bin Laden didn't make all of his ideology up, he is quoting from the Qu'uran and the Hadith. In contrast though, Irshad Manji also quotes from the Qu'uran and the Hadith, but I know whose views are most similar to mine, especially as Manji supports our Canadian sister party, the NDP.


I do understand what you are saying. I often use the term Islamofascism, but would also be happy to use the term Judeofascism if I came across a particuarly extremist Jewish ideology. But the term should mean, a form of fascism that prescribes to extremist Islamic influence. It doesn't mean that Islam is inherently fascist. As with all religions, it is a mass concoction of contradictions.


I'm in the Paul Bermanesque school of thought. I believe that the Islamofascism of today was heavily influenced by Naziism. That's my opinion anyway.


[ Parent ]

Re: Alex Salmond and Islamic Extremism (#20)

by Free Radical on Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 10:14:44 AM GMT

Ironically fascism is almost entirely Christian in its cultural base.

I just believe that we benefit from precision in our language - otherwise it is very difficult to make any kind of rational argument (and ironically we then risk falling into the fascist trap of replacing reason with an appeal to emotion). To me, the term "Islamofascism" misuses two terms and is both offensive and unhelpful.

The term "Islamism" appears in Wikipedia, but see the interesting Wikipedia discussion page on the term for some insight into the difficulties of using it and it's potentially offensive nature.

However, as I mentioned, I think that Bin Ladenism (inspired by Qutb) is a modern (or postmodern) phenomenon - very much a product of our age. I do not share the fundamental tenets of Bin Laden's belief (but see Robert Fisk's excellent The Great War for Civilisation for a good insight into Bin Laden), but I think people should be free to believe what they want. What is wrong with Bin Laden is his methods. In particular the deliberate targeting of civilians. For what it is worth, my own position is that the targeting of civilians in warfare is immoral.

But I would also argue that dropping high expolosive out of a plane onto a city, or shelling of a city, or firing rockets from a helicopter into city streets, or destroying powerstations and water pumping stations is in practice not so different from the Bin Ladenist tactics, and the body count is of course vastly higher. One death diminishes us all, but, whilst Al Qaeda followers have killed thousands in their high profile, made for TV, atrocities, the West has inflicted hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths on Iraq and Afghanistan. And as you know Israel always keeps the body count in its favour by a factor of several-fold. So, in our rightful condemnation of Bin Laden perhaps we should also try to understand the sense of injustice that Western meddling in other countries' affairs perpetuates - even if the Western politicians imagine it is done for the most high-minded and liberal reasons.


[ Parent ]

Re: Alex Salmond and Islamic Extremism (#19)

by john frost on Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 09:56:16 AM GMT


 Comrades, fear not he looks a perfectly good highly respectable candidate to me. I suspect some sort of spooky fifth column infiltration of or by the SNP may be at work here . Frankly be that as it may it is good news as relative to the present climate a landslide  of votes will  secure Glasgow East for Scottish Labour and so it should. Which is a pity in a way as I would love to see  Glasgow Tech's former history man consigned to the history books. Enough of this nonsense the SNP will be deservedly and thoroughly thrashed on Thursday.
PS please come back sooon Comrade Wendy all is forgiven love John Frost.


Alex Salmond and Islamic Extremism | 20 comments (20 topical)