A crippling paradox?

My political priority is social justice. Poverty is abhorrent and I strongly believe that everyone should have equal opportunities in life. Likewise, while I think wealth creation is crucial our economy, I hate the greed and selfishness which seems to be so strongly present within the capitalist system.

You would be forgiven for thinking that I'm a passionate supporter of the Labour party. But I'm not. I am conservative.


Not all conservatives are Thatcherite. Not all conservatives support a strongly neoliberal stance. That is the point I am trying to make here. It is not necessarily a paradox to be conservative and to support social justice.

I freely admit that since Thatcher the emphasis within the Conservative party has been one of small government, low taxes and the free market. But that is not the be all and end all of conservative thought. It is actually a very recent phenomenon.

The rise of neoliberalism coincided with the rise of Reagon in the US and Thatcher here. Before that, though, British Tories were far less supportive of small government and low taxes. The Butskellite consensus after World War Two meant that, despite rhetorical differences, both parties were committed to the welfare state, government intervention in the economy and co-operation/conciliation of the trade unions.

Neoliberalism changed this dramatically and it was not a change, I think, for the better. I am a One Nation conservative. I believe that equality of opportunity and social justice are the most important political issues.

Yes, I do support capitalism. But I do not support it with a great deal of enthusiasm. The businesses that I respect the most are those which have a social conscience, such as M&S, or which give their employees a stake in their success, such as the John Lewis Group. I abhor city pay and the private equity companies who make huge profits with no regard for the livelihoods of many hard-working people.

I put it to you like this: I support social justice. I support political action to help those who are most disadvantaged in society. I strongly believe in the welfare state. But I am a Tory just the same.



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Re: A crippling paradox? (#1)

This is all very nice for you, but why on earth do you feel the need to share your illogical Tory feelings on Labourhome? Why not chat with your fellow Tories on Conservative Home? What do you think the purpose of a website called Labourhome is supposed to be??

Re: A crippling paradox? (#2)

Debate like I hang out here for?

Re: A crippling paradox? (#4)

This offers more scope for debate than just Tory trolls arguing for Thatcherism. In supporting the post war consensus he essentially supports Attlee-esque policies, at least to a certain extent. I think that offers legitimate cause for debate (though I agree it is somewhat contradictory after Thatcherism).

Re: A crippling paradox? (#5)

A somewhat thoughtless reply to a rather thoughtful post Labourstill...

Re: A crippling paradox? (#3)

Interesting, basically what you are saying is that you would continue to support the post war concensus instead of Thatcherism. But the post war consensus surely occured because the winning force of Labour arguments made the Tories seriously compromise. So in effect you are supporting Labour-influenced policies over modern Tory policies. How can you possibly reconcile support for consensus policies with support for a Thatcherite party?

Although the exact same argument could be made against Labour supporters what with the general direction of New Labour I'm sure :P 

Re: A crippling paradox? (#6)

"The Right Direction"

This is a thoughtful post and those of us who are Labour members would do well to take heed. It illustrates that Conservatives are not necessarily neo-liberal and that there is an honourable tradition of conservatism that those of us on the left need to understand, but that, if anything, might help define us better.

It also illustrates vividly an apparent realignment of politics. Coupled with a socially liberal position there are some Conseratives who might arguably be said to be to the left of the neo-liberal and authoritarian wing of "New Labour".  It also illustrates perhaps the deficiencies of the left-right terminology - though I think it retains its usefulness overall. Clearly, if one took Thatcher as some sort of aberration of Conservatism (and one might look at Blair similarly as an aberration of Labourism) then some Conservatives - Heath, Macmillan - look some distance to the left of Blair and Brown.

So what is it that distinguishes those of us on the Labour centre-left from Tories such as "The Right Direction?" Speaking personally now I think it is a view of society in terms of underlying class, or social, forces - that actually owes a lot to a Marxist viewpoint (though if you read Churchill for example you will find that a class-based view of history at least is not confined to the left). This leads me to believe that many of the important changes in society and democratisation have been won by the organisation of working people, women, Chartists etc. - they have been won through struggle. There were great Tory reformers of course, Disraeli is an obvious example, but I believe it was the pressure from below that mattered most.

Furthermore these underlying class interests (or whatever you would like to call them) from above or below, also play a powerful role in spite of the rhetoric, or even the programmes that parties campaign under. And one can see the powerful forces of global capitalism acting upon New Labour, in the obsession with market solutions and the unrivalled enthusiasm for privatisation. The influence of the Trade Unions on New Labour has been limited to stemming the neo-liberal tide a little and perhaps raising public spending (but with the neo-liberal three-cup trick of tying public spending to putting money into private sector hands). 

Similarly, if we look at Cameron, the rhetoric might be soft and socially liberal but my impression is of a right-wing neo-liberal programme dressed up as something less right-wing. And these powerful (and internationalised) neo-liberal forces of global capitalism will pull the conservatives rightward in government in the same way as New Labour - and more. Similarly the admirable socially liberal positions argued at the moment by Tories are likely to be modified in an authoritarian direction in government (because the pressures tend to pull governments in this direction).

The state - often viewed with suspicion by Conservatives is the only institution (apart from, in limited cases, the judiciary) capable of tempering the excesses of the market system and delivering some kind of fairness. The voluntary sector, much vaunted by the Tories, and laudable in itself, will in no way take up the slack if spending on, say the health service is cut back. And, if people no longer volunteer, for example, to spend time working with young people and children, then the only solution is for us, collectively, to pay adults in this role. I am deeply suspicious of what a Conservative government would end up doing in practice, as this is the real test. I believe it would end up in drastic cuts in public spending, especially for local authorities, and that would end up cutting services. (Everyone aspires to cut wastefulness of course, but in a bureaucracy this is easier said than done!). This is why I will continue to campaign for Labour at a local and a national level.

Re: A crippling paradox? (#7)

Labourstill: I posted this for two reasons. The first is for debate. It is important to test political opinions, especially with people who are likely to disagree. This does not mean that I just want to bait you and to cause an argument. It means that I genuinely want to see what you all think of my position.

Secondly, there does seem to be a deep-rooted hatred of Tories on this site. Alongside this goes a tendency, in my opinion, to tar all conservatives with the same brush. Conservative thought is as varied as the thoughts on the Left, which is what I wanted to stress. I had hoped that this might move the debate on a little beyond insults such as 'Tory trolls'.

Free Radical: Thanks for your comment. It is nice to be given at least some benefit of the doubt and not unanimously derided as 'illogical' (on that note, Labourstill, why exactly am I illogical?).

Perhaps this would be a good time to state some of my other views. Up to this point I haven't really said why I am conservative. Here goes!

First of all, I share the Tory belief in traditional institutions. These include the monarchy, the Church, parliament and, I would say, the armed forces. They give character to our country and can bring us together as focal points for national pride and heritage. Perhaps more surprisingly for some of you, I would include the NHS and the BBC on this list.

The role of the state is also an important question. I think, fundamentally, that it should do as little as possible (foreign affairs and security being the two most important duties). However, there cannot be any doubt that at the moment there is a lot for the state to do. Providing an adequate safety net and ensuring equality of opportunity (which both Labour and Tory governments have failed to achieve) i vital and does require state action.

This brings me on to public services. I am fairly flexible on this point. Where public services are efficient and are delivering well, I am all in favour of them remaining as public services. However, my general belief is that public funding is more effective than public delivery of services. Therefore I would be fine with private or third sector organisations running services, as long as they are paid and regulated by government. The exception to this is, I think, the NHS. As I said above, it is a tremendous achievement (and one that I have no problem giving Labour the credit for) and it should remain in public hands. It should be more independent though and more democratic.

On other issues, I am theoretically in favour of tax cuts - always for the poor before the rich - but I do accept that they must be afordable. I am pro-family and traditional values, although I support minority groups and immigration. On things like alcohol, smoking and gambling I am fairly illiberal I suppose, favouring higher taxes and more restrictions (on alcohol these taxes should be aimed at spirits more than wine or beer though so as not to penalise recreational drinkers who have no intention of binging). I strongly support our armed forces and at this time believe pulling out of Iraq would be a mistake.

Hopefully this will give you a snapshot of my views. What do you all think? And, of course, do you see any contraditions between this and my committment to social justice? I hope not, but I would be interested to hear what you think!

Re: A crippling paradox? (#8)

Personally I am not too struck at the monarchy, I don't like being anyone's subject - especially not the subject of some old inbred with a 16th Century mindset. But that's just my personal opinion, and I know full well that I'm probably in a minority on Labourhome - and certainly in the country as a whole! As can be expected, my republican views lead me to be suspicious of the role of the Church of England in public life. I do believe there should be separation of church and state.

But yes I am a firm believer in parliamentary sovereignty and the rule of law, and would agree that the NHS and the BBC are institutions to be proud of (though they need work). On the subject of the NHS, I totally agree that the private sector should have no role. I would, however, extend this view across public services and would argue that institutions such as the railways, which should never have been sold in the first place, should be renationalised.

I'm glad to hear that you are opposed to tax cuts for the rich at the expense of the poor, but the problem is that I don't believe for one second the Tory leadership believes this deep-down. They made a big noise about the 10p tax rate, but they refuse to promise to reinstate it and I know damn well that many still look to Maggie for ideological guidance - tax the poor to help the rich. 

Re: A crippling paradox? (#10)

"I know damn well that many still look to Maggie for ideological guidance - tax the poor to help the rich."

Would you care to adduce some concrete evidence to substantiate this assertion?

Re: A crippling paradox? (#13)

I'm a bit hazy on this, but didn't she raise VAT and lower the top rates of income tax?

Re: A crippling paradox? (#25)

She favoured indirect taxation, raising it from 8% to 15%, and then to neutralise the poll tax issue, it was raised by Norman Lamont to 17.5%

This is actually a larger issue with regard to fuel taxes. People get hit twice. If tax is 50p, and petrol goes up from 40p to 50p, then the money brought in by VAT goes up as well. Rather than the over complicated solution recently proposed to combat fuel poverty, VAT should have been lifted on domestic fuel. VAT should be lifted on petrol fuel too. Instead, we should focus on gas-guzzlers, polluting companies, introducing windfall taxes, and pressuring car manufacturers and oil companies to change with regulations.

Re: A crippling paradox? (#14)

Ever heard of Conservative Way Forward? Quite a few movers and shakers of past and present are in that cosy little Thatcher fan club.

Re: A crippling paradox? (#11)

I'm glad to hear that you are opposed to tax cuts for the rich at the expense of the poor, but the problem is that I don't believe for one second the Tory leadership believes this deep-down...many still look to Maggie for ideological guidance - tax the poor to help the rich. 

Unfortunately I agree with you. In terms of evidence: the policy to raise the threshold of inheritance tax to £1m (which, I think I'm right in saying, would only benefit the richest 6% of the country), the refusal to reinstate the 10p tax band and proposals in the pipeline to cut the headline rate of corporation tax. While this is not directly taxing the poor, it is certainly giving the rich priority. In the current economic climate it would be better for all tax relief to be aimed at the poorest members of society. The rich can look after themselves far more easily; they are more shielded from rising prices, for example.

Re: A crippling paradox? (#18)

Though officially because you're a conservative, I'm required to dislike you, this is a very interesting post. I can't agree on many issues. I am a secular libertarian republican.

Dispite the fact that I am often to the left of New Labour, it might suprise you to know that I'm an interventionist when it comes to foreign policy.

In theory, I would've supported the Iraq war. But the reasoning for war was flawed. While UNICOM maintained that there could be WMD, I felt that this wasn't the best reason. Where we failed was that unlike Germany and Japan, we didn't rebuild Iraq. We shouldn't have enforced shock doctrine neo-liberalism on Iraqis. There is mass unemployment, and thriving inequality. THIS creates the conditions for fascism. I believe we should say "While rebuilding Iraq, to become a full-fledged democracy, and tackling economic hardship in the country, by allowing them to have full ownership of their oil supplies is a top priority, having troops there is not the best way of fulfilling this."


However I condemn any on the Left who don't speak out for Iraqi social democrats and trade unionists like Hadi Saleh, Kanan Makiya, Jalal Talabani, or Abdullah Muhsin. There is also a very racist argument popular amongst the left. This is that Iraqis don't want democracy. We would not dare say this to the Burmese who have never had a proper democracy, or the generations of Poles or East Germans who never experienced democracy.


But you seem to have a commitment to social justice. There are tens of billions of pounds that could be taxed from the rich. Perhaps hundreds. I believe inherently, that taxing the poor as high as the rich is repugnant. I read a letter within a newspaper the other day, with words to this effect:

"MP's announced that the tax allowance would be raised by £600 to over £6000. MP's should be disgusted with themselves that there are people paying taxes with such pay."

Indeed. I believe that the tax allowance should be raised to around £10,000. It is better to give tax cuts to the poorer and middle-classes, not just morally, but economically. If you give tax cuts to those earning less, they can run out and spend the money into the local economy, which helps businesses, therefore helping the rich. If you give tax cuts to the rich, they will spend the money amongst each other, or on to specified markets, like for certain cars, or boats.

Re: A crippling paradox? (#20)

I fully agree on the tax issue. I think that the Personal Allowance should be set at say 5% above the minimum wage. Then income tax and national insurance should be merged (for simplicity) and turned into bands of 10%, 30% and 50%. The rich would pay a lot more but at least this would be partially compensated by the high personal allowance. It would be a clear and very progressive system. Unfortunately I don't think either the Tories or Labour would be willing to do this...

Re: A crippling paradox? (#23)

That sounds like an interesting system.

Re: A crippling paradox? (#9)

It is refreshing to see you - as a more moderate Tory - presenting your views. Your priority of 'social justice' in some ways, however, appears somewhat audacious for a Conservative supporter, since it has almost always been monopolised by the Left and obviously most closely associated with the Labour movement.

From this, two questions, to my mind, arise: (1) how do you reconcile the political objective of social justice with a smaller state/lower taxation? And, perhaps more importantly, (2) what exactly is your interpretation or meaning of the phrase 'social justice', exactly? In many ways it is merely an abstract concept, an ideal perhaps - though in concrete, pragmatic terms, what does it really mean, taking into account the empirical specificities of individuals and the society in which we find ourselves? By 'empirical specificities' I mean the facts of life - that people living as citizens within one nation state possess unequal abilities, skills and aspirations...

Re: A crippling paradox? (#12)

Your priority of 'social justice' in some ways, however, appears somewhat audacious for a Conservative supporter

I think I'll take that as a compliment. Audacity is not a bad thing in my mind. Even Tories shouldn't be shackled to what is considered traditional!


It would be better for me to deal with your second question first, I think. It is always hard to define social justice and I'm not sure I'll do myself justice here, but I'll try. Basically I think social justice equates roughly to equality of opportunity. I believe that everyone, not matter which family they happen to be born into, should have an equal ability to succeed at life. This boils down to several key points. Firstly, every child should have an excellent education. This does not need to be identical - some children are academic, some are more vocational etc - but each child's education should give them the skills they need to develop their talents. Secondly, the state should make sure that there is an equal safety net under all citizens. Healthcare, police, pensions, benefits etc must be there to ensure that everyone has a minimum standard of living. Other than that I think my definition relies on each individual to set their own goals. It is not for the state to determine whether a lawyer is 'better' than a mechanic, for example. Each person should be able to freely decide what they want to do with their life and each person should have an equal opportunity to achieve this. Maybe that's a little too simplistic, but I hope it gives a rough outline.


In terms of your second question, I agree that there is a tension present between small government and delivering social justice. On one hand, I do think that the voluntary sector can be used to take some (but not all) strain off the government and people can be encouraged to become more independent of state aid as they become more successful. for example by setting up private pension schemes. On the other hand state action is definitely necessary to ensure that people can achieve this success. Basically I take the pragmatic view. If there is adequate scope to cut back quangos/reduce spending in order to fund tax cuts for the poor and to roll back the state a little then this should be done. Hopefully in the future this will become increasingly possible! If, though, all of the state's resources are needed to achieve social justice, then so be it. Smaller governments and tax cuts are a good aim, but not at the expense of social justice. Once social justice becomes increasingly common there should be more scope for these aims.

Re: A crippling paradox? (#16)

Personally I do not hate all Tories just the view points of some of you. As a non Thatcherite you will understand that for someone who grew up during the Thatcher years that she, her policies, and her attitude towards the people that they hurt did not endear me to your party.

As examples of the attitudes and view points that I have a strong dislike for. I have personally experienced a local councillor using the term "nasty social housing"  and there was another incident where a Conservative teller  outside a polling station made a very unpleasent comment about Roman Catholics.

Further to my posting in reply to your origional blog on this there are a number of Tories local to me that I enjoy a debate with when I see them.

Re: A crippling paradox? (#15)

I believe that there are plenty of one nation Conservatives out there as conversations with some of my local Conservative councillors has borne this out.

These people like myself agree that the cult of individualism has done much harm to society as people are concerned with only them selves rather than showing due care to those around them this has resulted in loss of a sense of community. While believing that family and friends are very important I also think that those family and friends are also part of a wider community which if possible we should take part in.

One does not have to be any sort of activist to do this. There are many simple things like using local shops and  services, when doing so taking the time to be civil to the staff and anyone else you meet there.Attending local events and even simply saying "Good Morning" to a neighbour.


In the work place I too believe that the best and most successful companies are those that treat their staff well.  While of course pay and conditions are of the up most importance there is also they way that staff are treated. Things like giving them a say in processes/changes/improvements and ensuring that a job well done is praised. Too often far more gets said about something that has gone wrong than when something is going well.

I hope that your voice and those of similar minds gets heard within your party as I suspect that many of those in the most influential positions are Thactherite or have Thactherite sympathies.

Thank you for posting an alternative view point on here.

Re: A crippling paradox? (#17)

I remember the Tories before Thatcher, I remember low wages high taxes, not lower taxes the poor were so poor I can even remember a bit further back to the 1960 when the Tories tried to destroy the NHS and they crippled the country with strikes over the lowest wages people could live on.

Seems  people have a funny idea of Justice in this country.

Re: A crippling paradox? (#19)

As opposed to the Tories during and after Thatcher?

 

Trebling of unemloyment, 28% of all children below the poverty line, which, by 1997, was the highest in Europe, The destruction of 25% of all British manufacturing industry (We could go on ad nauseum here)

 

I agree, people do have a funny idea of justice in this country... 

Re: A crippling paradox? (#21)

Er, did you actually read my post? Or are you just ranting about Thatcher?

Re: A crippling paradox? (#22)

The reply wasn't intended at yourself, I'm replying to what treborc said before me.

Re: A crippling paradox? (#24)

Ah, ok. Sorry to jump to conclusions!