Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism

Labour MP Jim Dobbin has written to the Prime Minister, Gordon Brown expressing his concern about the anti-Catholic attitudes of some party members. His letter comes a week after the Catholic vice-chairman of Young Labour resigned, citing the anti-Catholicism which surfaced around the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill.
The attacks came most notably from Labour MEP Mary Honeyball, who questioned the right of Catholics to hold public office.
Catholic Labour MP Stephen Pound claimed Mary Honeyball’s anti-Catholic statements had “a strong whiff of the 17th century about them.”
“The logic of her argument is to suggest that no single person who subscribes to any moral or religious code should dare to stand for election to Parliament,”
Mr Pound said.
“That would not only disenfranchise the majority of current MPs but finally confirm that a sterile, sour and secular society is the political desideratum. God forbid, say I.”
Mr Pound said that if there was no place for Catholics in non-religious political parties, it pointed to the creation in the future of an exclusively Catholic party.
“This leads inevitably to exclusively Muslim, Hindu, Anglican and even atheist parties.
“That dystopic vision is one that I do not subscribe to and I worry that Mary Honeyball has so little intellectual rigour as to fail to see the blindingly obvious,” Mr Pound added.




Many Roman Catholic Labour members are increasingly concerned about a climate of anti-Catholicism in the party. As one RC blogging priest put it:

British Catholics have always had an affinity with the Labour Party, it is the working class roots, the interest in social justice, the internationalism of both groups that have held them together. I spoke to a friend from Crewe just after the by-election there, a Catholic friend and life-long party supporter said, "None of the Catholics I know who take their faith seriously can take Labour seriously anymore". This was just a few days after the vote on the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill.
With Labour desperate for votes, though "it doesn't do God", should be aware that alienating Catholics and other Christians could cost it dearly.





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Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#1)

Labour is not anti-catholic, its secular - respecting above ALL else the strong seperation between church and state. What labour is against, is the religious lobby trying to force their "morality" upon the rest.

The HFEB is the most progressive legislation in perhaps the last 2 centuries. Stem cells is going to change medicine forever - and shame on the person that listens to the churches morality in that regard. Its a bunch of cells, not some monster.

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#5)

"Labour is not anti-catholic, its secular - respecting above ALL else the strong seperation between church and state".  Where exactly is this in the Labour Party constitution or rule book?

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#8)

It doesn't need to be formalised in a rule book - it's what most of us believe.

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#34)

This is a perfect example of aggressive secularism in action.  It may be what most "of us" aggressive secularists believe, but it is grossly unrepesentative of the population as a whole. And you cannot rationally claim that a party stands for X - let alone for X "above ALL" if it is not in the manifesto, constitution or rule book. It's perfectly clear that Blair, and several other Cabinet Ministers, don't share your view.  But go ahead - drive the Catholics out - and Labour's vote will fall below 20%.  Is that what you want?

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#37)

Nobody's ever said anything about driving Catholics out so stop stirring things.

Tony Blair acted in an extremely secular manner when he was Prime Minister and didn't let his faith force him to preach from the despatch box. As it should be.

And I find it strange that you consider it to be wrong that the majority of the party who are generally secular should be able to say that the party itself is broadly secular.

You've made it clear that you're not a Labour supporter anyway so I don't know why you care so much.

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#2)

I think this is mostly a lot of hot air. Yes the Party must represent catholics, but that does not mean caving in to church pressure on abortion and stem cells. Some of these people may have a legitimate point, what Honeyball says is certainly unacceptable. But I think most of them are just sour about the HFEB. I'm afraid we live in a democracy, and Labour was respectful in that they allowed a free vote - and look who won.

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#3)

I am shocked and saddened by the tone of Mary Honeyball's article. See here.  http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/may/20/cardinalssins

Replace "Catholic" with "Jew" or "Muslim" and see how it reads then.

For instance, I think there would have been an almightly row - and rightly so - if it had been suggested that practicising muslims should be disbarred from political office in a Labour Government.

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#24)

I'm from a Catholic family and I don't have any problem with this.  She doesn't say all Catholics should be debarred from holding office.  She asks a question - whether it's appropriate in a democracy for members of the government to allow their allegiance to the pronouncements of the Pontiff to trump the will of the people?  Legitmate question. 

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#6)

"Labour was respectful in that they allowed a free vote - and look who won".

Excuse me?  So the sight of Harriet Harman, Emily Thornberry and Judy Mallaber, carrying out a personal whipping operation and screeching that "the sisters" wouldn't forget if anyone voted against them, was just coincidence? 

Fool yourself if you want to Otware, but don't try and patronise others with the idea that this was anything other than a gun held to the heads of wavering MPs, under the auspices of a "free vote".

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#9)

What exactly is wrong with Members of Parliament trying to strongly persuade their fellow MP's to back their own view.

That is not 'whipping', it's just democracy.

And it's certainly no different to Nadine Dorries who vigourously tried to persuade MP's to back her view.

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#12)

Nothing wrong at all with persuading fellow MPs with reasoned argument - its the thinly veiled threats to those that vote otherwise that Catholic Labour supporters object to. Several MPs have reported the aggressive tactics that Ms Harman and her team employed during the vote, not least the forming of a "human corridor" to funnel Labour MPs into the lobby to vote against the Motion.

And note how many Ministers in addition to Harriet Harman took an active role in what clearly was a vigorous whipping operation: Joan Ruddock, Barbara Follett, Rosie Winterton to name but a few.  Hardly representative of a free vote when members of the Government are physically jostling you to vote in a certain way, is it?

Nadine Dorries might be a nutter, but at least she didn't stoop to this hypocrisy.

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#13)

Until someone can provide evidence of this 'physical bullying' then I won't believe a word of it. Most of this gossip has come from Dorries herself, so it's not to be believed.

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#15)

I've no idea what Dorries has been saying on this and I'm not much interested. I'm more interested in the state of my own party, and going on the basis of three Labour MPs present on the day of the vote.

And I've also mentioned to them the possibility of going public and providing the kind of evidence you are requesting - two of them mentioned career threats made to them privately and repeated in the din of the vote itself.  The other just laughed at the possibility of going against several powerful Ministers.

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#17)

Again, absolutely no evidence for this and it's just idle gossip.

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#16)

Also, what prominent MPs of a feminist persuasion do in regards to a free vote is hardly the fault of the Labour Party. You'll have to come up with some pretty convincing evidence that it was party policy to 'whip' in a free vote, which is just logically insane anyway.

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#4)

Poor old Mary Honeyball. She's a lovely person, but perhaps not the sharpest tool in the box

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#7)

Several comments so far to the extent of "desert if you want to" just make me wonder if it was Unison or Unite! pointing out similarly expressed prejudice against Trade Unionists as has been reported against Catholics whether we'd still be hearing the same high-minded guff about Labour governing without external influence.

Some of the comments made regarding Catholic adoption agencies throughout the SORs debate has left many Catholics wondering whether we are really welcome in this party any more.  Just remember that the Catholic vote has supported Labour right from the start (including helping to keep the Party above the Lib-SDP Alliance back in ’83, let’s not forget), and continues to keep several MPs in the North-East out of the danger zone, even in spite of many of the patronising gestures laid down from London.

While Government must always rule “for the many not the few”, just remember that traditional Labour supporting Catholics will only take so much before we desert, and desert for good.

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#10)

So what do you expect? That the secularist majority in the party should just role over to accommodate your needs even though they go fundamentally against our principles?

This party in no way discriminates against Catholics, but the majority are entitled to strongly disagree with what the Vatican, or the leadership of the Church in Britain, has to say about everything from contraception, abortion, gay rights to gender equality.

Mary Honeyball's comments were very wrong, but it's also wrong to suggest that there's something bad in being secularist and arguing against the views of the Church leadership.

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#11)

However, having read Honeyball's comments in full, I wouldn't say they were that bad.

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#14)

So disbarring people from public office on the grounds of their religion is acceptable?

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#18)

No, but people are entitled to argue against their views which their religion forces them to comply with.

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#19)

There's a difference between being inclusive of all beliefs and simply bending over to do as the church says.

For example, abortion. Catholics hate it. Solution: Catholics don't have to have abortions.

Contraception - Vatican thinks its evil. Again, Catholics are free to do what they want with regards to birth control and protection. But let's not forget the damage that these extremist views do in Africa...

My point is that just because Catholics (or any other group for that matter) personally don't like something for religious reasons doesn't mean it should be banned. If you were a secular Israeli would you be happy if Israel made it illegal to eat pork and shellfish?

Basically what you fail to understand is that people resent being told what they can and can't do because of a minority of people who frankly hold views that are extreme when compared to the average person. I don't want to see scientific advancement stopped, for example, because a minority of hardliners hold a personal belief that it is immoral. They have no right to push their belief onto other people.

Having said that, I agree that Labour needs to do more about maintaining it's support. But this isn't just about Catholics, it's about the muslims Labour is alientating, it's about the general white working class that Labour is alienating. This must surely be achieved by being more inclusive of all groups - not just bowing to the wishes of the Pope and his bishops in Britain. 

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#20)

 
Indeed there is a difference between inclusivity and sheep-like adherence – but there is also a difference between genuine respect and the oft-trumpted respect for faith-led opinions (usually trotted out by those who in the same breath attempt to justify ignoring deeply held opinions on the grounds that they have arrived at the “wrong” answer, an arrogance which turns the collective stomach.
 
You have raised two examples for your point – firstly you highlight the example of abortion, suggesting that if Catholics hate abortion, then “Solution: Catholics don't have to have abortions”.  What you – I suspect deliberately – miss here is that abortion is not simply a matter of personal morality, impacting as it does on the life of the unborn child, the rights of the father, and the ongoing happiness of the woman concerned.  You might as well state that some Labour supporters (such as myself) object to the Iraq War – solution: don’t enlist in the Army to fight there. 
 
To take your second example of contraception in Africa – I assume you are referring to combating AIDS – you might consider familiarising yourself with the evidence first: by far the most successful scheme in reducing the infection rate is Uganda’s ABC prevention strategy, which stands for Abstinence, Being faithful, and (as a last resort) Condom use.  This has reported a 70% decline<sup> </sup>in HIV prevalence since the early 1990s, linked to a 60% reduction<sup> </sup>in casual sex (http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/304/5671/714?ijkey=46cff837218a1ccc424c39db7403bc75c3 44f4c9).  Despite substantial<sup> </sup>condom use, no other African – or indeed, Western – country has shown either similar behavioural responses or<sup> </sup>HIV prevalence declines of the same scale. The nearest result has been achieved in Zimbabwe, where researchers have reported that prevention programmes also based upon the principles of abstinence and being faithful have cut the national infection rate by 2.5%.  While some may try to dismiss this initially modest reduction, this translates into thousands of lives saved and also compares to Western contraceptive-based schemes which far from any reduction, have seen an increase in new cases during the same period.
 
My point is that principled and evidence-based stands taken by Catholic Labour MPs are being too easily disregarded by elements who are only too keen to paint this as simple adherence to a supposedly foreign and irrational belief, a conclusion which is all too easily accepted by those content to clam their hands over their ears and bellow “NO PROBLEM HERE”.
 
Yet what you principally fail to grasp is that Catholics are objecting not to the fact that Church teaching is not being accepted and implemented verbatim, but that their opinions are instantly being disregarded, on the arrogant and erroneous assumption that Catholics are somehow unable to think for themselves.  There is a reason that people of faith hold religious belief, and this is because they have (for the most part) thought independently about metaphysical issues, and come to the conclusion of a particular religious and ethical viewpoint.  As you point out, if persons not of that faith do not like or agree with that teaching, they are not bound by it.  Simple solution, if you don’t like the teaching of the Catholic Church, don’t follow it.  To address once again your first example, nobody was advocating the total banning of abortion (even the rabid Nadine Dorries, who I might point out is certainly not a Catholic, declares herself pro-choice of a sort).  What was being proposed and debated by several Labour MPs was reducing the time limit to reflect the fact that premature babies are surviving earlier, the possibility that they can feel pain in utero, and the spiralling numbers of abortions performed each year (as evidenced by today’s report: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7462934.stm).  Agree with the evidence or disagree, but don't patronise us by the simplistic suggestion that Rome say, we do.
 
You also neglect to address the issue of freedom of conscience.  For example, Catholic adoption agencies were one of the largest groups placing vulnerable children in loving and stable homes, until the Sexual Orientation Regulations (SORs) required them to place children with gay couples, something which goes against the Catholic faith (not to mention the Muslim, Jewish and Hindu faiths, if you look at the respective scriptures).  By forcing these agencies to choose between the faith that motivated their work, and the law, the SORs killed this excellent work at a stroke.  What we as a party have got to realise eventually is that the third sector - much of which is represented by faith based organisations - can very often carry out such sensitive and vital work far better than the State can.  This reason alone would have justified an opt-out for such religious agencies – which to my knowledge, had never received an application from a gay couple to adopt (and why would they?).  However, this simple and uncontroversial step was instantly disregarded by certain figures within the Labour Party, egged on by militant groups such as the National Secular Society.  Whether or not you agree with allowing gay couples to adopt is irrelevant – this issue goes to the heart of individuals and groups to object to issues which they feel are wrong, in order to continue with vital community work.
 
Just to finish off what I regret has turned into something of a rant, may I say that while I do agree with you on Labour’s need to rebuild bridges with the Islamic community, the Party neglects its core vote – and Catholics most certainly make up part of that core vote, I can promise you that – at its peril. 

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#21)

Yeh and the LGBT vote is also part of Labour's core vote.

And if you think allowing Catholic adoption agencies to enforce their own bigotry against homosexuals whilst using taxpayers money is going to maintain that core vote, then you're wrong.

You see, this is why there are fundamental differences here - what you propose goes fundamentally against the core beliefs of any secularist. Why should Catholic adoption agencies be allowed to discriminate using taxpayers money?

How would Catholics like it if taxpayers money was used to discriminate against you?

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#25)

Actually NM, taxpayers money is already being used to enforce secular prejudice to discriminate against the vulnerable – in exactly the example you are so keen to brush aside. 
 
Those who were so keen to force through the SORs without an opt-out for Catholic adoption agencies knew perfectly well that the agencies would be unable to go against their consciences on this.  And if any consideration was made for the children who would suffer as a result, then this consideration obviously came a poor second to their desire to see the Catholic agencies close.  They have got their wish – as a consequence to this decision, the first Catholic adoption agency has recently announced that it is to close, with others reluctantly admitting it could do the same.
 
But in the mad delirium on the part of the militant secular community that no doubt followed this announcement, just pause to think of a few further points: the thirteen Catholic adoption agencies across the UK find homes for a sizeable percentage of the approx. 3,000 children adopted per year, including around a third of those children who fall into the hard to place category.  Also worth considering is the fact that despite the numbers of children being put up for adoption are increasing, the numbers of children actually placed decreased by almost ten percent.  It is bizarre that at a time where adoption agencies have never been more needed, the Government – our Government, and my party – instead turned itself to persecuting those agencies for their beliefs and, indirectly, vulnerable children which Labour should have as the heart of its raison d’etre to protect.
 
In short, forcing the SORs through with no opt-out in this case was a simple act of spite by a militant secular minority, with little or no thought for those who would really pay the price, i.e. children in care.  I never thought that I would hear described as socialism that the poor and most vulnerable should once again pay the price for the “principles” of the powerful – and if those “fundamental core beliefs” of the secularist (as you put it) effectively require children to go without a home, then those beliefs must be held secondary at best. 
 
Just as a sign-off, may I also add that I have NEVER met or even heard of a gay couple who have even so much as approached any one of the thirteen major Catholic adoption agencies in the UK – and why would they?  Catholic belief on this issue is well known, and there are alternative agencies where those gay couples who make up 2% of prospective adoptive parents, could apply (if you know of any, then – as has been debated at some length this week – produce the evidence: habeas corpus).  This could easily have continued with no slur or detriment caused to the gay community, many of which had no objection whatsoever to the proposed opt-out.
 
Far from acting out of bigotry, as you seem determined to believe, Catholic charities including the adoption agencies have up until now played a huge role in reducing poverty across the UK.  This will be a poorer country without them and, sadly, responsibility for this falls on Labour.

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#28)

If the Catholic Church really cared about those children, they would appreciate that it's far better for a child to be brought up in a loving, stable home (whether that be with heterosexual or homosexual parents) than in an orphanage where they're stuck with tens of other children and cannot be given the love and attention they deserve.

But of course, the Church isn't interested in that kind of logic and they think it's perfectly acceptable for them to discriminate against homosexuals using taxpayers money.

If the Church is so stubborn that it's prepared to abandon the needs of the children just because they cannot bear to treat homosexuals in an equal manner then that is THEIR OWN FAULT and not the fault of the Labour government.

I'm sure when gay people try to adopt they don't particularly care which agency they adopt from and would be quite prepared to choose a Catholic agency if they wanted to. And of course you don't know any gay couples who have adopted at a Catholic agency so far - that's because under the current laws the Catholic agencies can turn gay people away as they see fit!

If the Catholic agencies choose to close down because of their own stubborness and bigotry then they should be taken over by the public sector. I don't see any problems with that. It will be the Catholic Church who will lose out, and that may be no bad thing.

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#30)

NM, if you can engage your brain, maybe look at the available evidence before making any more rabid outbursts, you would come across as a far more credible advocate for your position.  But less me address your points in any case:
 
Firstly, it is not only taxpayers money which subsides the work of Catholic adoption agencies.  You seem to be forgetting (or conveniently ignoring) the fact that Catholic adoption agencies are also funded by church going Catholics through contributions made via the collection box passed round at mass, as well as through individual bequests and one-off donations.  It is therefore Catholics themselves who primarily fund these services (as well as through their own tax payments), and as such it is not unreasonable to allow these same individuals to have a say in how the service is run, provided - as underlined by Richard - the interests of the child are held to be paramount.

Secondly, you are also incorrect in asserting that under current arrangements Catholic agencies can turn away – in fact, if refusing any couple for this or any reason, agencies have a duty to defer such couples (gay or straight) to another agency who will.  This was not a perfect solution for Catholics, but one which the church was willing to accept in the spirit of compromise.  Unfortunately even this was refused, with leakings by certain Government ministers of "no let-up to the Roman tendency", apparently out of the very form of spiteful and ill-informed bigotry which your last post has expressed.
 
Finally, and most importantly of all, it certainly will not be the Catholic Church that loses out, but vulnerable children.  It does not go unnoticed that you offer no proposal whatsoever as to how to place such children with loving families – your “hit and hope” solution is neither supported in evidence, nor justified in practice (as you may have read from several of the links included in my previous post, other adoption services are extremely concerned at the loss of many of the largest and most experienced service providers).  As long as you can comfort yourself with your own self-deluded notion of “equality” you seem quite content to see others – even vulnerable children – get screwed over to accommodate your “principles”.  In doing so, you expose yourself as the lowest form of hypocrite.

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#33)

NM, if you can engage your brain, maybe look at the available evidence before making any more rabid outbursts, you would come across as a far more credible advocate for your position.

I already have provided evidence for my points. If you check the other thread you'll see it, but you've yet to reply to it.

Firstly, it is not only taxpayers money which subsides the work of Catholic adoption agencies.  You seem to be forgetting (or conveniently ignoring) the fact that Catholic adoption agencies are also funded by church going Catholics through contributions made via the collection box passed round at mass, as well as through individual bequests and one-off donations.  It is therefore Catholics themselves who primarily fund these services (as well as through their own tax payments), and as such it is not unreasonable to allow these same individuals to have a say in how the service is run, provided - as underlined by Richard - the interests of the child are held to be paramount.

Not one penny of taxpayers money should be allowed to fund organised discrimination.

And yes it is unreasonable for the Catholic Church to choose to discriminate when using taxpayers money. Would you accept the businesses who pay for the city academies openly turning away pupils on the basis of their sexuality? No (at least I hope you wouldn't - but given your previous views, I'm not so sure).

Secondly, you are also incorrect in asserting that under current arrangements Catholic agencies can turn away – in fact, if refusing any couple for this or any reason, agencies have a duty to defer such couples (gay or straight) to another agency who will.  This was not a perfect solution for Catholics, but one which the church was willing to accept in the spirit of compromise.  Unfortunately even this was refused, with leakings by certain Government ministers of "no let-up to the Roman tendency", apparently out of the very form of spiteful and ill-informed bigotry which your last post has expressed.

I'm perfectly aware that Catholic agencies have to legally defer gay people elsewhere - but this is turning them away. You're clutching at straws here. If a gay couple choose to adopt a child from a Catholic agency, regardless of how good they may be at raising children, the Catholic agency will openly turn them away just because of the way they were born and tell them to go elsewhere.

You make it sound like the Church has been positively generous by compromising to 'defer' them. The law doesn't go far enough. The Church should be made to allow all individuals and couples to adopt based on their own personal qualities and not on their sexuality or marital status.

And you've got a cheek to throw around accusations of bigotry given what you've said in recent posts.

Finally, and most importantly of all, it certainly will not be the Catholic Church that loses out, but vulnerable children.  It does not go unnoticed that you offer no proposal whatsoever as to how to place such children with loving families – your “hit and hope” solution is neither supported in evidence, nor justified in practice (as you may have read from several of the links included in my previous post, other adoption services are extremely concerned at the loss of many of the largest and most experienced service providers).  As long as you can comfort yourself with your own self-deluded notion of “equality” you seem quite content to see others – even vulnerable children – get screwed over to accommodate your “principles”.  In doing so, you expose yourself as the lowest form of hypocrite.

Vulnerable children already lose out under Catholic adoption agencies because the guardians who decide their fate would rather keep them at the orphanage than provide them with a stable, loving, decent home with a couple who happen to be gay or with an individual who happens not to be married. This is truly shameful and I'm proud that the Labour government is doing something about it.

And I already have said a way to make things better - if the Catholic agencies still want to maintain their bigoted stance then the state can take them over and run them instead. All the people who work there will probably want to continue regardless of who owns it (at least they should if they really care about working with kids). And under the rules, the agencies should aim to provide stable, loving families to all children and not just minimise their chances in life by only accepting married, heterosexual couples.

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#36)

The catholic vote has always been loyal to Labour. It was the churches who produced the most devastating reports about poverty in the '80's.

What most secularists are saying though is that personal beliefs should not distort objective decisions. Gay rights is congruent with allowing religious adherents into our party. Tony Blair is a deeply religious man, but even if he had personal religious objections to gay rights (which I'm sure he doesn't), he didn't let them interfere with his progressive agenda for gay rights.

Noone was saying catholic agencies HAVE to give children to gay couples, but it simply legislated to stop them discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation. If an individual hetrosexual couple are fitter to be parents than an individual homosexual couple, then the legislation didn't prevent the former from being given the adopted child.

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#22)

Secularism should ensure neutrality of the state towards religion.

People are entitled to religious beliefs. John Kerry has said he personally opposes abortion, but wouldn't legislate against it. This seems to be the right approach. By all means, try and persuade pregnant women not to have abortions, but don't legislate against it.

In the UK, sex education is not taught in around 40% of schools. We have pregnancy rates of between 40-50 per 1,000 girls aged 15 to 19. In the US, with very conservative attitudes, the rate is 49. In the Netherlands, where the ultra-liberal sexual health programme "Long Live Love" is even taught in the religious schools, the birth rate plummets to just 4.1. The rates of infections in the Netherlands for HIV amongst the young, is just an eigth of that in the US.

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#23)

I am a catholic, but agree pretty much with a socialist agenda

John

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#27)

What part of the socialist agenda do not agree with John? ;-)

Not all catholics slavishly follow the Vatican on every issue. I find some of the above argument and those on another thread quite worrying, coming from fellow socialists. i dont care what informs my comrades' opinions. However, I do object when they suggest that I cant have a voice or an opinion because it might be affected by the fact that I am a catholic. I find that as insulting as the Church threatening excommunication on catholic MP's who supported the bill. We are talking about policy and issues that are polarising. Its easy to lump all catholics in together under the same umbrella on these issues, which frankly is patronising. I personally supported the bill. People of all faiths and none should be welcome in our party. 

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#29)

It's those who claim the party is "anti-Catholic" who "lump Catholics in together under the same umbrella". If s/he wanted to be more accurate and to distinguish, as you do, s/he could have said that the party is anti- some areas of Catholic teaching which some Catholics are faithful to.

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#31)

Thats a fair point but is a little narrow. There are plenty views expressed against catholics per se on the subjects in point. That ignores the breadth of views that catholics in the party hold on abortion and stem cell research. Not everyone taking part in the these debates makes generalisations I have to say. I think its nonsense to suggest that the party is anti-catholic. There are areas of policy where catholics whose opinions are informed by the church hold the minority opinion. My view is that doesnt make their opinion any less valid and they have a right to their own beliefs without being run out of the party if its the minority view.

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#32)

You can argue all day about what fundamental beliefs are essential to Labour Party membership (are there any?) but anyway, I have to say I haven't noticed many views expressed against catholics per se in the party. This all seems to fit far too neatly with the Daily Mail "Christianity under thread" nonsense campaign.

Honeyball's incoherent dribblings are the worst I've seen and she's fairly harmless.

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#26)

Look, it's really quite simple.  The government puts up a bill.  Government ministers should be voting for that bill.  If a minister's "principles" mean that he or she can't support the bill, then they should resign.

The issue arose because some ministers wanted special treatment - the ability to act according to "principle" while keeping their red box and ministerial car.  In the end they got this special treatment because the "principles" they were invoking were religious, rather than political.  This whole affair was quite the reverse of "anti-catholic", it was in fact pandering of the worst kind.

As for the Young Labour bloke, he seemed to be miffed because he was in a tiny minority in London Young Labour, and he just couldn't take it.  Diddums.

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#35)

Graham. Do you really not understand the concept of free votes on matters of conscience?  This has been accepted by governments of all parties: indeed there was a massive protest from leading figures on all sides of the abortion debate when Gordon tried to whip this through.  This is a well established constitutional convention.

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#40)

NB - isn't it something of an anomoly that the issues that are most contensious from certain religious moral positions are regarded as "matters of conscience" but that other moral position are not treated as such? Most of politics is moral in nature - normally loyal Labour MPs who voted against 42 days would almost certainly say that it was a major issue of conscience for them. The same with backbenchers who voted against Iraq, or any one of numerous other examples.

The convention of free votes on matters where the major religons express a strong opinion is a bad convetion which gives the religious special treatment not given to those without faith but no less lacking in ethics. The fact that that's how it's always been done isn't a justification for it.

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#41)

I agree that the 42 days matter should have been a free vote as well. But it's wholly wrong to "argue" from "some matters of conscience are not given free votes" to "no matters of conscience should be given free votes".

Anyway this is a tolerant Christian country in which 70% of the voters at the last election were Christians vs 22% of no religion (and the proportions in previous elections were almost certainly significantly higher). So it's not unreasonable that Christian views carry considerable weight in parliament.

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#42)

How many of those 'Christains' are religious in any way?

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#43)

The logic of my argument that votes of conscience should not be free votes was that nearly all important votes in Parliament are ones of conscience, at least for some people. If a Labour minister had opposed the minimum wage in '97, on the grounds that they believed it would hurt people by causing more unemployment - a moral argument, should they have been allowed to vote against it and yet keep their job?

The idea of free votes on issues of conscience is completly at odds with the idea of collective responsibility. We have it for religious matters simply because in the past religious morality was seen as inherently superior to secular morality, and so deserving of special treatment.

So to defend it, you have to either argue that collective responsibility and whipping are in any situation a bad thing, since any vote could have the potential for a moral objection, or to say that for some reason "Christian views" (it's worth pointing out that in this case it's more about Catholic views, which definitely aren't a majority) deserve an institutionalised protection. If a majority of people in this country want to reduce abortion rights and feel vaguely strongly about it, they will almost certainly get their way at some point in the normal democratic way, not by needing to have priviledges in the system.

 

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#44)

"Matter of conscience" is not the same as "someone might conceivably think there is a moral issue involved".

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#46)

I thought "conscience votes" were those on which the whips calculated that too many Labour MPs would vote against them to be disciplined.  The implication is that the rebels really will "go all the way" and accept the punishment because they care that much about the issue.

I can't say I think much of "rebels" who want to present a note from their mum (or Archbishhop)  saying they can be naughty but mustn't be punished. I am rather more sympathetic to MPs who vote for Party policy as determined by Conference when the leadership is ignoring Party policy.

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#38)

Am I the only one old enough to remember Conference after Conference during the 1980's voting against attempts by the Militant-nutters to impose a pro-abortion commitment on all MP's and PPC's?  Michael Foot and Neil Kinnock, as Leaders, always firmly rejected such a draconian idea, and fortunately Conference supported them.

As an atheist I believe that religion has no place whatsoever in politics, but I also respect another person's right to believe.

What worries me is that some mainly Catholic MPs were prepared to vote for a reduction in the abortion time-limit on faith grounds, despite admitting that the Science and Technology Committee Report had proved conclusively that a foetus could not survive pre-24 weeks.

As for the unofficial whipping that may or may not have taken place, I sincerely hope it did, as the HFEB is amongst the best things this Government has done, and to allow Dorries, Widdecombe and Winterton to take us back to the 1940's would have been a disaster.  If anyone in the PLP needed reminding of that, then they're even more spineless than I currently believe they are.

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#39)

Thanks. So it's clear that Labour has repeatedly rejected attempts to make it pro-abortion. Hence members, and ministers, are free to vote with their consciences.

However you haven't quite followed the S&T Committee situation. Fetuses can survive pre-24 weeks, the rates are: 22 weeks: 0-10%, 23 weeks: 10-35% .

What the Committee said was that survival rates in NHS Hospitals had not increased in the last 10 years.  However: (a) babies born this premature are usually very ill - most aborted babies are perfectly healthy. (b) Regional NHS Hospitals are far away from best practice.

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#45)

Can someone explain why is it not enough for the Catholic hierarchy to urge their co-religionists to eschew abortion from the pulpit and provide practical support to those who go ahead with pregnancies that they don't really want?

Why do they need to enforce their will through the law on all citizens, of other religions and none?

My recollection is that, under the Inquisition, the Catholic church claimed that the nasty stuff with torture implements was done, technically, by the secular authorities. So the priest stood back and prayed while the secular authorities did the dirty bit. I am inclined to think there were some good reasons why a Protestant Reformation took place, even if they were not entirely enlightened ones.

Re: Labour MP decries Labour anti Catholicism (#47)

Catholics, in common with all mainstream Christian and Muslims, believe that deliberately taking innocent humans life is wrong, and that abortion comes under that heading. It's pretty clear that, if you hold that view you can't simply urge your co-religionists not to do it.