I was both surprised and pleased to see that John's / the LRC's immediate press release was not a sectarian rant against the Compass MPs, although of course the emails on various lists from his office staff did blame Compass.

But this thread highlights a key point...I think those who voted against the government were correct in doing so. But it's very difficult to lay blame at the door of Compass when the Campaign Group does not have the discipline to support its Chair... 

I still firmly believe that John is making a mistake. He may be angry at those MPs who voted with the government - and he's right, they were totally wrong - but I'm sure that many, many ordinary Compass members were opposed to 42 day detention. What he is doing is like blaming ordinary members of Compass for the failure of their MPs. At the Compass Conference who would be his audience? John Cruddas? No, ordinary Compass activists.

It is the case that we need a forum in which the left and centre-left can talk eg compass and LRC, as well as left wing trade unionists.  I have setup a facebook called Labour Trade Union Progresssive Actvists it has admin from LRC and compass members and so far has 250 members or so since launching earlier this week.  We also have input from the NDP and democrats from the states and some colleagues who were once in the party and want to stay engaged in the process.  Lee Skevington CLP secretary in Yeovil is the secretary, Philip Lewis from Unison and the LRC, gives TULO input, compass youth as well as members from the socialist youth network are getting involved.  The youth delegate from the Democrats National Committee is also wanting to get involved.  This is a chance for all of us on the centre-left and left to talk informally, use the forum!!  A new website is on the way.

Lets talk and not score political points of each other.

Thanks

John Wiseman
Founder
LTUPA founder

Sorry, check Hansard not the BBC. Bob Wareing rebelled, and David Taylor voted in both lobbies - a way of abstaining while showing you're there.

So the Campaign Group breakdown (still bad in my view) is 16 against 42 days, 7 for it and 1 abstention.

Aside from Cruddas and Trickett - anyone know any other Compass MPs?

"I do not want to be associated with those that are willing to support undermining the basic human rights that socialists have fought and sacrificed themselves to secure and protect over generations."

Will he be leaving the Party then?

I repeat that this not a time for ripping into each other the new labour project is stumbling and the left and centre left could be stronger than ever. It is a fact that both the compass MPS and socialist campaign group have questions to answer eg all should have rebelled like John and others have said.  We should work together.  There is many in the LRC and compass who would have voted against.  I would say to Henry G, Susan and Owen we can't afford this debating, we have to be strong and lets keep talking

John Wiseman
PPC Westmorland and Lonsdale

I don't agree with Cruddas or Trickett on this occasion. They essentially voted for this messy piece of legislation, because it was messy, and because it would be held up. I don't care it it means little in practise, if the sentiment of the bill is to indicate how 'tough on terror' we really are, or to appeal to the Sun, then I'm against it. The government wasted valuable time, when they could've debated the real ways of defeating terrorism. Lets list them:

1) Concentrating their efforts on allowing wire-tap evidence in court.

2) Ending their role in the war of drugs, which would allow Afghanistan to build up their economy.

3) Withdrawing funds from the World Bank until they clean up their act, which would give economic independence to Iraq, and allow them to have a more beefed up co-operative in the oil industry. It is the lack of a Marshall plan in Iraq that is serving as a breeding ground for fascism.

4) Start mediating efforts for multilateral non-proliferation. Particuarly in Kashmir, which would do more to de-stabilise Al-Qaeda than a peace process in Israel.

5) Declare support for free Kashmir, Chechnya, and Palestine.

6) Concentrating on energy independence, which would allow us to force pressure on countries with oil supplies that abuse human rights.

7) Help Muslim women and democrats and gays, so as to help defeat fundamentalism.

8) Having a commitment to secularism, and a clean arms policy.

We need a general commitment to being anti-tyranny. In many dictatorial countries, who we arm, the only opposition movement is that of Islamic fundamentalists e.g. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Uzbekistan etc. Muslim democrats, many of whom are comrades on the left are being driven into the hands of these clerical madmen. The motives are more often than not, about oil.

Similarly, despite all the terrorism, the fight for a free Chechnya or Palestine is a noble one. The foundations of these ideologies are Islamic fundamentalism, but it is layered with opposition to the Russians, or Israelis killing their fellow countrymen.

The first nuclear war, if we are not careful, will be between India and Pakistan. Nearly a fifth of the world's population live in these two countries. Only efforts to start multilateral disarmament can quell jihadism in Iran and Pakistan.

Drugs fuels every terrorist group. The FARC, the Taliban etc. Even loyalist and republican paramilitaries still left in Northern Ireland, who are stoking up sectarian attitudes amongst the young, gain their finances through drugs. Does anyone think that if we left Afghanistan alone, that Hamid Karzai wouldn't legalise 60-70% of his economy?

The World Bank spreads Thatcherism on steroids economics across the world, through blackmail. They destroyed Russia and Argentina, leaving Russia vunerable to that Soviet-fundamentalist Vladimir Putin. Some countries bravely fight back. The Bolivians refused to have their water companies privatised, because it would have trebled water bills, leaving many without clean water. The World Bank also controls an economy of a country lead by a man who is the leader of a party (Jalal Talabani-Patriotic Union of Kursitan), that is a member of the Socialist International. Iraq has snippets of a co-operative hydrocarbon law, and without the World Bank on their backs, it would be a properly co-operative law, which would allow Iraq (now estimated to be the country with either the first or second biggest oil supplies) to build up their economy. They could reverse the regression that has hit healthcare, education, and its water, electricity and sanitation systems. They could build roads (as could the Afghans). It is their economic depletion which has caused jihadism. If Britain had massive unemployment, especially amongst young, bored, and frustrated men, then it wouldn't be long before Blacks and Whites and Asians started turning on each other.

Bob Wareing is no longer a Labour MP - having resigned the whip last year - and voted against extended pre-charge detention in last night's vote.

The Guardian seem to have made a mistake by noticing his absence from the list of Labour rebels issued by the Press Association, and assuming that because he rebelled over 90 days then he must have backed the government. The reason he wasn't on the list of Labour rebels of last night is that he's no longer a Labour MP.

Well guess what - NINE paid up Socialist Campaign Group MPs voted with the Government: John Austin, Michael Clapham, Ann Cryer, Bill Etherington, David Hamilton, Austin Mitchell, Dennis Skinner, David Taylor, Bob Wareing


Wareing isn't a Lab MP anymore.
Taylor voted in both lobbies (his way to show an abstantion instead of just not being present). Austin and Etherington didn't vote.
The remaining 5 Campaign Groupers (Cryer, Clapham, Hamilton, Mitchell and Skinner) voted in favour of the 42 days proposals.

Press reports quoted Mitchell saying he has voted for it "to save Brown for the nation. If he had lost, he would have been on his way out". "

Dear comrades

As somebody in a stake in the four wings of the left and centre-left

1 Trade Union Movement
2 Co-op movement
3 LRC
4 Compass

I say this

Get your arses in gear and make sure we work togther and stop this political sniping, it is personalities overs substance.

Get a grip

John Wiseman