Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it

When shadow Health Secretary, Dr Liam Fox appeared to suggest that the Tories should become the anti-abortion party. In 2001 Fox was quoted in the Conservative Christian Fellowship prayerbook as saying that the UK's 'pro-abortion laws' should be scrapped. In 2005 Michael Howard almost made abortion a general election issue when, towards to start of the campaign, he told Cosmopolitan magazine 'I believe abortion should be available to everyone, but the law should be changed. In the past I voted for a restriction to 22 weeks, and I would be prepared to go down to 20.'

It is because of examples like this that I am just a little sceptical about the new campaign launched yesterday by the Tory MP Nadine Dorries. A former nurse, Ms Dorries is leading a parliamentary campaign to reduce the upper limit for abortion from 24 weeks to 20 weeks when the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill is debated in the Commons later this month. The last time the law on abortion was amended was in 1990 – given the fact that both medicine and science have advanced significantly one cannot agree that a review of abortion legislation is long overdue.

At present, all legislation on abortion in Britain is considered as a matter of conscience and decided under a free vote. What worries me is that some MPs and campaigners may use the forthcoming debate as a means of polarising attitudes where the issue of abortion is seen only of terms of being a vote winner, or a vote loser. Yesterday’s Daily Mail led on the launch of Ms Dorries’ campaign and will no doubt be a strong advocate of the need for a change in the present law. Britain has a long and enviable record of allowing its elected representatives to make up their own minds in matters of conscience. The danger, as I see it, is that some of Ms Dorries’ colleagues may well be tempted to frame the debate about abortion in such a way that it heralds the first tentative steps to try and establish a political arm for the Christian right in Britain.

Ms Dorries has stated that the campaign is not a religious campaign (yet 6 out of the 10 organisations linked to it are backed by Christian evangelicals) nor, we are told, is it politically motivated. Let’s hope it stays that way.




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Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#1)

All political decisions are matters of conscience, abortion no more or less than going to war or cutting benefits for single mothers.

No free votes or all free votes - we should not accept free votes on some issues to pander to religious pressure groups.

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#2)

If you make such matters 'party political' then you most certainly will end up pandering to religious pressure groups.

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#4)

Totally agree e10.
I also agree with Dorries' proposal - we need to act to prevent abortion being used as contraception.

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#5)

Agreeing with the Tories are we?

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#6)

Yes, it would appear so...

Usually, on moral matters - be that poverty or whatever - Labour is on the side of right; on abortion, we have I fear been taken over by silly liberals with little regard for the rights of the child, which is sad. There should be no abortion unless the woman's life is genuinely in danger - it cannot be a 'lifestyle choice'.

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#7)

Silly liberals?

May I remind you that the vast majority of people in this party are social liberals and it was Labour that legalised abortion in the first place over 40 years ago.

For someone who cares so much about tradition and history of the Labour party, I find it suprising how little regard you have for women's rights. Pro-choice campaigns support many of our candidates (both financially and otherwise) and if we don't stick up for the pro-choice campaigners, nobody will.

I don't think we need to adopt conservative policies on social issues - even Blair never did that.

Any other positions where you are socially conservative?

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#10)

How on earth is it 'conservative' to place value on human life - I thought that was what we on the left were all about? Easy abortion devalues human life, and puts the rights of the strong above those of the weak: not very socialist. Not sure what you mean by women's rights? Where is there a right to put your desire to continue your present lifestyle before the life of an unborn child?

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#11)

Because the foetus is not a human life. It is a potential life and therefore of less value than an actual human life.

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#12)

Just like a child is a potential adult and therefore of less value? Or an adult a potential pensioner? a ludicrous argument with no moral basis. It is that very potential which makes the foetus so important and sacred: when, all else being constant, the foetus would be born, and the mother's life would not be endangered, the moral case against abortion is clear. If that were the reason, why not have abortions at 8 months? It's still only 'potential' by your argument. The problem with the pro-choice case is that it's arbitrary - it only makes sense to define life beginning at the moment of conception. Otherwise, is the newborn with his umbilical cord still attached not 'alive' because he's still temporarily dependent on his mother? Is he only alive when he can fend for himself? Surely his neonatal dependency is almost as high as in the womb - what's the distinction? I get the impression this is an 'ignorance is bliss' argument - if I can't see it, it's not 'alive' yet.

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#13)

I'm not in the slightest interested in what your feelings are.

The feelings of women who need to have abortions for whatever reasons they feel necessary are what matters.

Neither you nor a ball of cells is of any concern.

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#14)

Right, so everyone gets to decide their own morality regardless of the consequences for others?

That way Thatcherism lies...

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#15)

No, everybody should have control over their own body. Nobody is talking about making abortion compulsory. It's about giving women the choice about what they want to do with their body and no other person's.

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#16)

So wait, you think it's morally acceptable for a woman to abort a child just because she wants to put her career first? What about the father's choice, or the baby's rights? We should be providing adequate contraceptive advice etc and adequate social support that abortion should be rare in the extreme: clearly we need to do things about this too, but there is a moral line which should not be crossed.

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#17)

You keep saying that but I don't see a foetus as a baby or as a person with rights.

Obviously the father has a say but the final say should always be the woman's.

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#18)

Quick question rifles - at what point does
a foetus become a human being?

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#19)

When it's born.

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#20)

So the act of being has an effect of transforming a clump of cells into a human being?  What physical changes to the baby (aside from being propelled from the mother's body) warrants this change in designation?

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#21)

Quite. You haven't yet given a compelling reason why the foetus is not a human being, why it has no rights, and why its potential to become a human being (by your definition) does not give it rights. I do feel that some on the left feel they have to adopt the whole baggage of (supposedly) 'left' issues - we don't. What makes us left is our morality: things like pro-abortion, animal rights etc are just bandwagons which probably discredit the left and prevent our key issues (greater economic equality and better human relations) getting the attention they deserve.

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#23)

Can't really see the point of continuing this but have to take issue with the nonsense here:

"things like pro-abortion...are just bandwagons which probably discredit the left"

Utter crap. The vast majority of people in the country are pro-choice (not going to sink to using your vile terminology - as if anyone is pro abortions per se).

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#25)

No need for language. I just worry that we're denigrating human life - how can that be vile? I find it a bit odd that someone who otherwise seem left-wing should be so callous on this issue - would you agree with the Guardian's Kira Cochrane that we should think no more of having an abortion than having a tumour removed? I think that's a genuinely depressing idea, and a dangerous one. It is far more defensible to say that life starts at conception than birth - again, is that before or after the umbilical cord is cut? The child is not independent, so perhaps they can be safely killed up to the point when they're self-sufficient? It's just not a logical position.

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#28)

Also, if a foetus is of no moral worth, why not be pro-abortion per se? Why have any qualms at all? If you really believe that, it's no different to having your appendix out...

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#22)

Erm, yes.

Nothing other than the act of going from being a foetus to being a person.

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#24)

So if nothing physically changes in the baby between when it's in the womb and after it's been ejected, why the change of designation from a foeus to a human?  If there's no physical difference, what's the moral difference, and what is that brings about this change?

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#26)

What's the difference between the value of someone's life if they are a soldier in a war or a civilian sitting at home? They are the same person, the context is everything.

What brings about the change is the act of giving birth and thereby creating a human being from something which wasn't before.

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#27)

Thanks Rifles.  Your comparison on soliders is, to my mind, completely different.  It's about roles, not about the physical maturity of a person.  However, that's not the issue here.

You seem to be saying that a human being is created by birth, rather than conception.  So nothing changes physically, but something changes morally. 

I take it you would oppose babies of one day old being murdered?  So, therefore, you believe that a child in the womb can be killed, in a morally justifiable manner, right up until birth, but as soon as it's born, it cannot.  Is that right?  If so, could you explain what precisely it is that changes a foetus to a baby human?  If it's not physical, then what is it? 

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#39)

Yes, that is right. As I have already explained, the change which occurs is going from being a foetus in a womb to a person outside the womb.

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#41)

Thanks Rifles, but that doesn't answer my question - what is actually behind the nature of the change which the physical act of birth gives rise to? 

As a follow-up question, do you believe that human beings have inherent value, and where does that value come from?

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#43)

Are you on the right website? I don't find philosophy that interesting these days.

In summary answers:

- a physical movement? I don't really understand what you're getting at.

- inherent value? Not sure about that.

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#46)

Sorry not to be clear - I'm just trying to understand why it is that you're happy for a baby in the womb to be killed (right up until it's born), but a baby outside the womb you're not.  For that to be the case, there obviously needs to be something in the nature of the baby that changes.  What is that? 

You've rightly accepted that there is no physical difference between a baby in the womb immediately before it's born, and immediately after it's born, so there needs to be something else which justifies it being killed in one instance, and it not in the other. 

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#47)

"For that to be the case, there obviously needs to be something in the nature of the baby that changes."

Why does there?

One quality has changed. It is now outside the womb. That is sufficient change for me to describe it now as a person rather than a potential and therefore its life as of more value.

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#48)

Seem to be going round in circles...the point I would make is that simply being in the womb rather than outside does not make it a 'potential' life.  It is a life.  The act of giving birth doesn't change the status of the baby.  It is the same immediately before, and immediately afterwards.

And on the point of value...why does a human outside of the womb have more 'value'?  What is it that determines that value for you?  Does it come with age and development i.e. the older the better?  Does a 90-year old have more 'value' than a 1-year old?  I'm curious as so far you haven't really given any source from which you derive your concept of value.

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#49)

"It is a life."

Saying so doesn't make it true. Giving birth might not change the physical nature of the foetus/baby but it does change it from being an human-in-waiting to being a human. You haven't given a source for your concept of human life beginning at contraception (presumably? if not, when?)

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#50)

Ok, I can see we're not going to agree on the changes!  I'll give you my source of human life if you'll give yours, and where you derive your 'value' of life from.

I'm a Christian, and believe that humans are made in the image of God.  I believe that life begins at conception.  Sperms and eggs are potential human beings - foetuses are not.  They're real humans at an earlier stage of development.  I believe that's very clear from science, and also from what the Bible teaches as well.  I believe that noone has the right to take anyone's life away, whether that person is in the womb or outside of the womb.

I've had this brought home to me in a new way in the last few weeks.  My wife's a few weeks pregnant, and we're working through the implications of this on our current way of life!  It's certainly a little scary, but what's struck me is the fact that children are a gift, in my view from God.  We are in no position to be killing a child in the womb - we do not have the right to do that, just as we don't have the right to kill children outside of the womb or adults.  I understand that there are some very difficult situations where abortions are understandable (rape etc).  However, this doesn't detract from the underlying principles outlined above.

Hope that makes sense!  What about you, where does your concept of human worth and value come from?

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#51)

I don't need an externally-derived system of value, thanks. A basic regard for humanity seems to do me fine.

Potential humans are a lesser priority.

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#52)

Sorry to bang on, but that really won't do Rifles.  Value and worth needs to come from an objective, universal source.  You say 'basic regard', but I view killing babies in the womb as showing basic disregard. 

If not from a religious or moral point of view, where does your regard for humanity come from? 

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#53)


It is a moral point of view if you like. Humans have value and therefore rights. Why must that value be derived from an external source?

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#54)

I didn't say external, I said objective and universal.  I completely accept that people can have different moral viewpoints from me, but I'm just curious as to what they base it on.  Can you quantify where the value you place on human life comes from?  You say they have 'value', but you don't say why and where it comes from.

Is this value universal i.e. do you believe that it applies to everyone, everywhere, and for all time?  Or is it simply a product of society and certain periods in time?  In a nutshell, convince me I'm wrong and tell me why I should believe what you believe!

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#55)

"Can you quantify where the value you place on human life comes from? "

No, other than that treating people fundamentally as you wish to be treated is a good place to start. That doesn't make life sacred in itself.

However, given that philosophy doesn't really interest me I'm not particularly in the market of trying to change anyone's mind on this.

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#56)

Commendably honest...!  Interesting points, but we'll leave it there I think - thanks for the debate

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#31)

jljb2 - it is conservative to force pregnant women who are in a desperate state to have backstreet abortions where they are at risk of infection or even death, rather than in an NHS hospital.

Easy abortion? Abortion is never easy and why on earth you think that by lowering the limit you will reduce the number of abortions is beyond me.

Your viewpoint is not only naive, but it is morally corrupt and based on religious doctrine rather than socialist values. On social values, you my friend are a conservative.

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#32)

Except that I said a) that when the woman's life was in danger, abortion is fine and b) that we need to do a hell of a lot more in terms of social support, contraception and sex ed in order to reduce the number of abortions taking place. Lowering the limit is by the by really; we need to develop a more rigorous moral code for these matters, for when it is and is not appropriate: I don't think 'I want to get on in my career' is a good reason to abort a baby. And, as a devout atheist, I fail to see how my belief can be based on religious values - it's based on a morality of protecting the vulnerable and standing up for those without a voice - the essence of socialism, wouldn't you say?

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#34)

What like standing up for pregnant women who are in a desperate position?

You care more about an unborn foetus or a ball of cells than you do about living women. And your attitude seems to be along the lines of women who have abortions are just being selfish. You don't seem to have any empathy with what some women go through in having an abortion. Most think it would be crueller to to give a baby up for adoption where it grows up knowing that it's parents didn't want it than to not bring the child into the world in the first place.

Not only is your position morally wrong in my opinion, it's also incredibly naive. Not only will you not see much of a reduction in the number of abortions since such a small percentage have abortions after 20 weeks, but you'll force those women that do want an abortion after 20 weeks (usually teenage girls, the mentally ill and those women with relatively minor medical complications) to turn to backstreet doctors to perform the operation instead.

That's not socialist, that's an abomination.

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#45)

I do think my original position was too harsh - you have convinced me of that. However, I suppose what I'm trying to get at is that sometimes the pro-choice lobby doesn't see any moral qualms related to abortion, or pretends not to, and therefore fails to push for a reduction in the number of abortions occurring using support and education. And I'm not sure many adopted children would agree with you on that one! I wouldn't for a minute suggest they're being selfish: some are simply 'not ready'; but I'm not sure that's a morally valid reason to abort a child. When you have problems of teenage pregnancy and mental health, the first priority should be resolving those. Certainly, as I said, I would never ban abortion, but I think we need to consider the moral aspects more, in order to ensure we channel our efforts towards prevention rather than 'cure'.

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#35)

jljb2, If you dont like abortion then don't have one!

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#38)

NM, you really are hilarious!  Would you care to explain why having 'Conservative' social values is so evil?  And what exactly are 'socialist values'?  I think I'm right in saying that religious doctrine has been around for thousands of years, but socialism only really surfaced at the end of the 19th century as we know it now.  Funny, that...


Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#40)

I'm not sure "socialist" values directly relate to issues of personal and individual morality, but if you're wondering why socialism emerged at the end of the 19th century then you should probably do some reading on the Industrial Revolution.

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#42)

Indeed it did.  And from my very crude analysis seems to be dying out after only a brief period in the sun, certainly in this country.  But that's another debate for another trhead on another day...

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#57)

I didn't say social conservatism is 'evil' (although in many cases it is), but I strongly disagree with it.

Social conservatism exists to restrict freedom and to force conformity - it is the very essence of 'big-state conservatism'.

I think I'm right in saying that religious doctrine has been around for thousands of years, but socialism only really surfaced at the end of the 19th century as we know it now.  Funny, that...

Exactly - religious doctrine is finally on the way out (and has been since the 1960's) and is being replaced by secular, liberal values. Thank goodness.

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#58)

I would rather have a nation of religious people who were committed to the true values of their religion that a load of atheists without a strict moral code. I strongly believe that we need, as atheists, to develop a strong code of morality - and to start praising these values and evangelising them. It's simply not good enough to allow all individuals to have their own code of morals -that's a recipe for Thatcherite individualism.

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#59)

Your stance is highly immoral. Thatcher would have been proud of your views on abortion.

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#60)

And of yours on economic and social policy, no doubt - which are the core of the Party, after all - but let's not sling mud. The abortion arguments are ultimately inextricable - unfortunately it's one of those rare cases where morality is on both sides. In that context, I propose that we keep the current limit, invest heavily in support, in tackling poverty that fuels teenage pregnancy, in contraception and in sex education, and therefore gradually tighten the criteria for abortion over time. I think that's a reasonable stance.

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#61)

I can't support tightening the criteria for abortion, but I agree with the rest. 

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#36)

Do we?

The fact is that very few women indeed suffer a termination after 20 weeks anyway.

Early abortions on the other hand are much higher. If you wanted to combat some perceived abortion as contraception threat, then before 20 weeks is the area on which you would have to concentrate.

Would you oppose the morning after pill for this reason?

safe abortions have always been available for women with money. It is working class women who will be forced into the clutches of back street butchers if abortion is further restricted.

This is a party political issue. Because poor women will suffer most and did suffer most when this abortion was illegal.

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#3)

By not doing so, we already are.

If the Christians want to set up a party to campaign on abortion etc, they're welcome to.

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#8)

Nobody is stopping choice but when does giving a baby an injection to kill it, because a women cannot make up her mind, god god sake 24 weeks a child can be born and live.

So your saying at twenty weeks she is thinking shall I or shall I not, at 24 weeks she say yes i will.

20 weeks  long enough to make up minds.

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#9)

Almost without exception late abortions are carried out for health reasons.

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#29)

treborc, I find your comment incredibly offensive. A little while ago there was a discussion strand on why so few women post on this site. Your comment is indicative of why women get turned off engaging with party politics.

I don't know any woman that taken decisions about abortion trivially and would challenge anyone to show me the evidence that they do.

This strand has hardly touched on the impact pregnancy has on women's lives aside from assertion that they may not want their careers interrupted.

Earlier today my daughter told me of her twelve year old friend who's pregnant and terrified of telling her parents, won't go to a doctor or the hospital because she's convinced doctors and hospitals will tell her parents. She's about ten weeks pregnant now and will find it difficult to talk to anyone because she's too young to get access to a connexions adviser and our Tory County Council scrapped our youth service.

Several years ago I working in the same building of an Irish Women's Abortion support Group who helped women come over from Ireland to have abortions in voluntary sector clinics. One of the girls I saw was sixteen and had got pregnant as a result of a rape.

The situations these women find themselves are difficult enough, without the judgements guilt trips some of the posts on this strand have indulged in. 

I think our party ought to be supporting these women and girls by protecting the existing legislation ... for this reason and this reason alone - It's the right thing to do!


 

 

 

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#33)

But the issue in those incidents is lack of support, lack of contraception and lack of advice and education: that leaves a civilised society with two options: 1) invest heavily in developing support, education, freely available contraception of all forms or 2) expect an increase in abortions, with potentially devastating psychological consequences for those concerned, and a saddening loss of the life of a child who would otherwise have been born. I suggest we choose the former route: I would never legislate to ban abortions, as it is a matter of personal conscience - but I think we need to think a lot more about the morality of it, and put all our efforts into ensuring that it is as rare as possible - for the sake of both mother and baby.

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#37)

Even if you invested infinate amounts of money in "support" and "contraception" abortion would still be needed as peoples lives often don't work like that. Intervention and prevention can't be every where and particularly where violence and abuse and vulnerability are present. 

The picture presented of irresponsible women dawdling about abortion just so it can push the boundaries of moral dilemma's is simply untrue. Women with the knowledge and  the access will always choose early abortion rather than a later one. A bigger influence on why very early abortions do not take place are waiting lists on the NHS. 

The position of "I agree with abortion but only if the mother's life is at risk" does not accept the reality of risks to vulnerable people ... people this party has always said it has fought for. 

The emotive language being used such as "the saddening loss of life  of a child that would have otherwise been born" does not assist looking at this rationally. Approximately a third of all conceptions result in miscarriage in the first two weeks. If we really want to lookm at "life" that way sexually active women should be arranging baptisms of their sanitary towels just in case their contraception failed. 

 

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#44)

Yes, I think you're right. 
But I'm still not convinced that there's any morality in allowing abortions just because the pregnancy is unwanted.

Re: Abortion debate: keep party politics out of it (#30)

Oh look, yet another self-confessed 'leftie' who adopts socially conservative policies.

What a joke.