Goodbye Gordon

lulu Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:23:10 PM GMT Print-friendly version Facebook

Gordon Brown is clearly a decent man, which is why he must know it is time for him to go.



Gordon Brown clearly cares deeply for the Labour Party, but there is no nice way to put this: to save Labour, to give us a chance of fighting back he has to go.

Does anyone really think we can recover under Gordon? I'm sure (at least I think I am) we won't go into an election 24 points behind, but we must all know that Gordon Brown cannot bring the Labour Party close to winning.

So, he has to go. And better to go now with some dignity - simply admitting that Labour cannot win with him as leader - that to be dragged out in a coup in six months time.

Then we need a contested leadership election. Either Gordon can oversee that or someone who won't be a candidate will get the chance to be PM for six to ten weeks (Jack Straw? Harriet Harman?)

That election, I bet, will be contested by a "new Labour" candidate - Miliband, Milburn, Purnell, Johnson and someone from the left - probably Jon Cruddas because he'll also pick up the old right vote too.

The hard left will scream about how unfair it is they cannot get their man on the ballot but that's life, while the Brownies (Balls) will stay out of this one because they will be licking their wounds.

Labour's first step to recovery will be that election because it will force us to engage with the public and the real issue will be what policies and tactics can beat the Tories.

But we have to have that election first and that means Gordon has to step aside.



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Goodbye Gordon | 33 comments (33 topical)

Re: Goodbye Gordon (#1)

by NorthernMonkey on Sat May 31, 2008 at 01:13:08 AM GMT

I cannot agree here lulu.

We cannot change leaders twice in a single term whilst we're in government - it would look ridiculous.

I agree that Brown has been very poor (as I expected) but he should be leader all the way up to the general election. The party may have made a mistake by coronating him as leader last year, let's not make another mistake by losing our heads now.

Labour may well lose the next general election. I'm not sure any new leader would be able to lead Labour to recovery in less than two years. We don't want another new leader in addition to Brown and Blair to have to end his career in this term.

Wait til 2010 and let a new leader rebuild.


Re: Goodbye Gordon (#5)

by TonyH on Sat May 31, 2008 at 03:24:48 PM GMT

I take no joy in it but I agree with Lulu (And appreciate the tone of the post).

I agree it would look bad changing leaders twice but I fear this remarkable slump will only look worse.

He's not to blame for everything but he's at the centre of most of it and in the name of meritocracy and for the good of the party - and indeed for the good of the country because we can't have a government keep drifting like this - he needs to go.


[ Parent ]

Re: Goodbye Gordon (#33)

by Ghost of Nye on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 05:15:13 PM GMT

Sad but true, Lulu. We've got ourselves into this - it would be catastrophic if, less than a year into his Premiership, Gordon was seen to be pushed out due to a loss of confidence in his leadership.

Additionally, I just don't see any natural leaders at this stage - Purnell or Miliband are definite contenders for the future, but neither has the sufficient experience or, to be totally frank, gravitas to take the top job at this point.  Plus for the reasons you already highlight, the likes of Balls are just too aligned to Gordon to demonstrate any significant change in direction to satisfy the PLP.
 
But this is where positives can be drawn – unlike the previous handover where the new leader was all too obvious, Gordon is in the position where he can bring on and blood an intended successor or successors.  
 
Let’s look towards a reshuffle later in the year to give some of the young up-and-comers a push forward. 


[ Parent ]

Re: Goodbye Gordon (#2)

by antibloodsports on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:08:23 AM GMT

The attack should be aimed at the Tories.

 
We have less than 18 months to save the country from catastrophe, using several of those months on a leadership conteest would be hugely counter productive, madness actually.

People should get behind Gordon Brown and tell the Tories to shuv it.


Re: Goodbye Gordon (#3)

by snowflake5 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 01:36:05 PM GMT

I'm reluctant to change leaders simply because there is hysteria in the press. Look at what the press did to the Conservative party and to the Liberal Democrats - hyping things, getting hysterical, goading party members to "decapitate" their leader.

Do you actually think it did John Major any good in his last three or four years to be constantly facing leadership challenges? Do you think the LibDems have benefited from knifing Charlie Kennedy and then Ming?

It is also not the Labour style to change leaders in a hurry and out of panic. After the general election, if we lose, we will have a proper election, and it will be down to the members and affiliates who the next leader is, not some puffed up hack in Fleet Street. We the members want proper candidates with thought-out platforms to choose from, and these platforms can't be worked out overnight. Potential candidates should therefore use the next two years to think hard about how they see the future of Labour.


Re: Goodbye Gordon (#6)

by TonyH on Sat May 31, 2008 at 03:30:36 PM GMT

That's well argued but it probably cedes the next election?


[ Parent ]

Re: Goodbye Gordon (#14)

by otware on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:15:35 AM GMT

The next election is lost.


[ Parent ]

Re: Goodbye Gordon (#18)

by AngryVoter on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 08:31:15 AM GMT

Major, however, had the courage to turn around and face them down with his famous "Put up, or shut up" competition. I don't see it happening in the Labour Party because of it's high complex and over protective structure.

I think this is the problem now that people have with Brown overall. He sniped at Tony Blair a lot, and then wasn't even democratically elected by his own party.

Continued Major-like parralels are completely wrong here. This is more Callahan-style collapse than Major.

Major was democratically elected by his party as leader in 1990. Major ran a half-decent government from the get-go, and his popularity slid gently and gracefully from his GE in 1992 [Which recorded the most votes ever in a general election in history] to his defeat by Tony Blair in 1997, most of it starting from Black Wednesday onwards. 

What's happened here is a total evaporation of support for Brown and his government. The press is reporting facts and screw ups like it has done for the last 11 years. To suddenly blame the press [Who's papers preach to readers who closest reflect their personal views]  is a desperate and false accusation because Labour "fell out of favour" with them.

One thing that I've noticed in the last few weeks, watching programs and reading newspapers that were still writing off Cameron and the Conservatives into the run up to May 1st is that the newspapers don't have that great an effect on forumlating our opinions. The campaign on the ground and the actions of the government are the real issues that people fight on. The local newspaper scorned the Tories in the run up to our local election a year ago.

The Tories became the controlling council group for the first time in history. 


[ Parent ]

Re: Goodbye Gordon (#20)

by snowflake5 on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:58:58 PM GMT

By the time Major had his "put-up or shut-up" election, he had been goaded constantly about his leadeship for three solid years. At the time it seemed as though Tories did nothing but plot to unseat him! Major's actions were those of a desperate man. Tories are admiring him in retrospect for it - but at the time the reaction of the public was "What? Why does the prime minister have to hold this unnecessary eladership election?"

Tory re-writing of history also extends to the myth that Major "ran a half-decent government". No he didn't, else Tories wouldn't have been trying to unseat him. In the depth of his recession the budget deficit was 7% of GDP. the bulk of the National Debt on the books was accrued by him. He botched rail privatisation. he botched electricity and gas privatisation. He was a cock-up merchant pure and simple.


If you compare Major and Brown simply by record, Brown comes off like a complete genius. Yet Tories, who at the time wouldn't support Major are now eulogising him!

Regarding the press, there is only one left-wing paper, and that is the Mirror. The Guardian has always been SDP and always takes it's opportunities to bleat at Labour governments. The Independent is pure LibDem. The FT is deliberately neutral. The rest - Mail, Sun, NOTW, Express, Times, Telegraph, are all solidly right-wing.

However I do take your point that politics isn't entirely about the press. The bulk of the British press has always been right-wing. If elections had been solely down to the press, Labour would not have won a single election in the last hundred years. Yet three of the biggest majorities won in post-war Britain were won by the Labour party. Therefore we should hold our nerve no matter what the hysteria in the press.


[ Parent ]

Re: Goodbye Gordon (#23)

by otware on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 05:09:43 PM GMT

I don't find the Guardian to be particularly 'SDP' in its outlook. It always sides with Labour over the Tories (except when they occasionally have a Tory columnist, which doesn't happen very often). The Guardian is mostly to the left of New Labour, which does not make it 'SDP'.


[ Parent ]

Re: Goodbye Gordon (#25)

by NB on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 08:36:09 PM GMT

Major may well have been the 2nd worst PM since Jim, but he never AFAIK told blatant lies to Parliament and the BBC, and the consecutive growth over which Gordon has presided began under Major. Major also had the courage to fight elections - something Gordon conspicuously lacks.


[ Parent ]

Re: Goodbye Gordon (#26)

by lulu on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 09:51:20 PM GMT

NB - are you a Tory?

 

John Major told Parliament talking to the IRA would make him "sick to the stomach" while he was, guess what, talking to the IRA.

 He was a liar, a cheat and a fraud. Gordon Brown is none of these things. But Gordon is also not an election winner or anything like one. And for that reason the Labour Party must expect him to go.


[ Parent ]

Re: Goodbye Gordon (#28)

by jkitleft on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 06:28:56 PM GMT

I can never forgive Major for his policy in the Balkans. He refused to help- in ANY way. He didn't have to send troops, he could have just lifted the Bosnian arms embargo, and enforced sanctions on Serbia. He also could've let the refugees come in to the UK.


[ Parent ]

Re: Goodbye Gordon (#21)

by jkitleft on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:17:42 PM GMT

I think the media has a great effect upon elections. On every issue, apart from immigration, Ken was leading Boris. When mayoral qualities were brought up, Ken was leading Boris. At the end of this polling, when asked who they would vote for, people said Ken. But Boris won.

The petty reporting of the insignificant Jasper affair, because he wasted a shiny penny of the London budget (well, a tiny amount anyway), and other such matters swung the election. Labour could've said that Boris once supplied the address of a journalist to allow an old friend to beat him up. But they didn't. If the papers had only been debating policy, then Ken would've won easily, and this is a fact, as it was proven by when people were polled on the actual issues London was facing.


[ Parent ]

Re: Goodbye Gordon (#4)

by NB on Sat May 31, 2008 at 02:26:58 PM GMT

Well how many more disasters is Gordon allowed?  He is already the most unpopular PM in recorded history, and has lead Labour to insolvency and the lowest poll levels since Foot. Should he be retained if:
a. Labour goes below 20% in the polls?
b. the Party goes bust?
If the membership really think he is the right man for the job then he could stand in an election and the members would back him. Does anyone really think that, if he were a candidate with the other serious contenders, he would win?


Re: Goodbye Gordon (#7)

by TonyH on Sat May 31, 2008 at 03:40:02 PM GMT

(sorry for commenting on everything)

I absolutely agree. Gordon standing would allow him to get all this behind him if he won.

But when he didn't we'd all be able to move on and actually get stuff done for the country.


[ Parent ]

Re: Goodbye Gordon (#8)

by lastword on Sat May 31, 2008 at 04:16:12 PM GMT

This is exactly why there should have been a contested election last year (whether McDonnell got the nominations needed or not).  I am still perplexed as to why Gordon was so not confident of his pwn ideas and position in the party that he ran away from a fight with McDonnell.  He lost any credibility he had then.  His career has just been a series of climb downs, avoidance tactics, non-communication and sulks.  I personally have had enough.  It doesn't matter what it LOOKS LIKE to change leader.  What matters to me is we salcage something of the next general election.  We're going to lose but do we have to be destroyed int the process?  No we don't and that's why we should give our party a chance to be in the position to mount a  full scale fight back, come 2013/14 by replacing Gordon.


[ Parent ]

Re: Goodbye Gordon (#9)

by antibloodsports on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:52:45 PM GMT

why on earth are people posting 'we are going to lose' on Labour supportitng websites??!!!

 

What a gift to our enemies and their freidns in the Tory media machine!!

 For gods sake get out there and fight the bastards and talk the language of winning!

Did the Polish resistance in WW2 say "oh well the Germans are going to invade so its a shoe in we will lose, we might as well stay in and talk about how bad it is" ???!

No you fight and fight, no matter how great the odds appear stacked against you, you never contemplate defeat and certainly dont talk about it! What a boost that gives our enemies!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


[ Parent ]

Re: Goodbye Gordon (#10)

by lastword on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:51:59 PM GMT

I take it you haven't knocked on a real door step recently then?


[ Parent ]

Re: Goodbye Gordon (#11)

by NarrowlyUpbeat on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:55:46 PM GMT

A few years back I posted a number of comments that Gordon would not be a success. Nobody countered my points which have all turned out to be accurate.  Infact at the time I was demonised and accused of being a troll.

Well for what it's worth here's my suggestion now.

Don't dump Gordon.

If Gordon is replaced the public will believe the Labour MPs are just out to save their own necks and not acting in the UK's best interests. That will confirm what the public suspect - the party will do anything to keep in power - and a party capability of doing anything is not a desirable attribute in the minds of European voters.

Second, most of these MPs "elected" Gordon in the first place.  The public believe MPs must have known Gordon's strengths and weaknesses and chose him for these. Disloyalty is a dirty word amongst many voters. Dumping Gordon because they claim to have recently discovered his weaknesses will not wash with the electorate.  That such a large number of MPs failed to see these weaknesses would not bode well for claims of party competence.

Third, UK, Europe and the world face difficult times ahead. The attribution of these issues are far from clear and certainly do not all fall into Gordon's lap.  The timing of questions about Gordon's leadership against the backdrop of recent bad economic news smacks too much of panic, opportunism and finger pointing amongst MPs. The public will believe Gordon was dumped by the party because of the bad news rather than his weaknesses. Such behaviour does not inspire the trust of the voters would be a poor indicator of Labour MPs decision making skills.


Re: Goodbye Gordon (#12)

by NB on Sat May 31, 2008 at 10:45:59 PM GMT

The question is whether Gordon is (a) merely unpopular or (b) simply not up to the job of PM.  If it is (a) then maybe he should stay, but if (b) then he must go.

Now he may have been a competent Chancellor: he presided over a long period of growth but made a mess of taxation, spending and bank supervision. But there have been so many blunders as PM - do people really think he is up to the job?


Re: Goodbye Gordon (#15)

by otware on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:30:03 AM GMT

I don't think he is up to the job for a number of reasons:

1) His trump card was the economy. That's going tits-up with the credit crunch & fuel prices. It shows that he's not the amazing chancellor than people thought he was.

2) Personality matters. Gordon doesn't have one. All he is seen doing by the press is adressing the Church of Scotland...in front of a packed room of dour Scots. Sums it up really. 

3) He has such little commitment to Labour values, as seen by the stalling over agency workers and the continuation of Blairite domination of the party apparatus. 

4)  10p. What a disaster. He tried a gimmick 2p tax cut on the middle class which nobody really gave 2 shits about. He paid for it by screwing a lot of poor people. Tories do not make good rolemodels for Labour PMs.

5) He has no noticeable drive or vision, which suprisingly are things he keeps talking about.

6) He can't even U-turn properly. Hanging on until the last minute, only when he looks certain to loose does he take any interest in helping people.


[ Parent ]

Re: Goodbye Gordon (#13)

by For the Union on Sat May 31, 2008 at 11:04:55 PM GMT

To replace one unelected prime minister (in every sense of the word) with another would be political suicide; the calls to hold an election would be extreme and impossible to ignore; and we would lose that election on current form. We are after all a DEMOCRACY.

Brown could destroy the whole new labour project - if labour goes down, it will be at the mercy of the far left and political wilderness beckons. Which means that we MUST win with Gordon...by any means necessary. 


Re: Goodbye Gordon (#16)

by antibloodsports on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 05:51:17 AM GMT

agree with fortheunion

so people get flack on the doorstep and yes ive been there recently but you stand with your head held high and a smile on your face and get on with it.

Nothing worth doing is hardly ever easy.

 


[ Parent ]

Re: Goodbye Gordon (#17)

by NB on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 06:03:03 AM GMT

It's depressing to see how often people argue "if we do X we will loose the next election, therefore we must not to X".

  1. The next election is almost certainly lost to Labour anyway.
  2. It matters a lot how badly Labour loose. A Tory majority of 30-50 is one thing: a majority of 200+, with Labour also pretty well bankrupt, is another.
  3. Surely it matters more to do the right thing for the country. There is no shame in loosing an election - there is shame in ruining a great Party and grossly misgoverning the country.
  4. We are a democracy - why shouldn't people be allowed an election? 


[ Parent ]

Re: Goodbye Gordon (#19)

by Tolpuddle on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 09:02:18 AM GMT

There is only one possible way to win the next election, with or without Gordon.

1. Understand, really understand, what needs to be put right and what the voters want which they are not seeing from us right now. And i don't mean guesswork or theories about veering to the left or right. Less waste and more value for money probably feature pretty highly - plus the referendum on Europe which was promised.

Repeatedly telling the voters that the tories will be worse isnt going to cut it. They've reached the stage where they think things are so bad they are willing to take that chance.

2. Come into the office on Monday morning, roll up our sleeves, and start doing whatever is needed.

For my money that will be stop fiddling around the edges, deliver on promises, stop making empty statements to the press, and get "stuff" working, but we spend enough on PR wonks to find out what the public actually want.  

Plus. Someone needs to learn that just saying that things are wonderful doesnt mean that they are wonderful. Spin isnt reality. The voters know what is actually happening in their own lives. We need to deliver.

We've forgotten that the government works for the people. Not the other way round. It happens.


Re: Goodbye Gordon (#27)

by Prbo on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 04:05:51 PM GMT

Quick question tolpuddle, and it might sound a little strange, but...

why do you want to win the next election?  looking at the comparable situation of the Tories in 1992, it would have been better to lose that election.  For Labour now, I'd accept defeat at the next election, regroup and aim for the election afterwards.  If you win the next election, probably by a slim majority, you make it even more likely that longer-term annihilation is likely (a la the 1980s).  Just a thought...


[ Parent ]

Re: Goodbye Gordon (#30)

by Tolpuddle on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:12:06 AM GMT

How do we deliver fairness and equality without our hands on the levers of power? How can we ensure fit for purpose hospitals and medical care available to all who need it if we are not in the driving seat? How can we provide best of class education to every child and help each to unlock their best potential? How can we do all the things we promised if we are not in control?


[ Parent ]

Re: Goodbye Gordon (#22)

by Wiseman on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 03:20:46 PM GMT

All have valid points, but we must not lose site of the fact its policy that needs changing in the short term, becasuse we aint listening to the people and our core vote.

Wiseman


Re: Goodbye Gordon (#24)

by otware on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 05:16:06 PM GMT

I think the best thing that can happen is for MPs, grassroots members, councillors and trade unionists to put immense pressure on Brown to change direction and change his style. The debate of whether a change in leadership will help the party or be 'electoral suicide' is pointless - the party cannot afford a leadership election. It boils own to: would you rather have a sick Labour Party with Gordon at the helm or a bankrupt Labour Party without a leader?


Re: Goodbye Gordon (#29)

by NB on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:11:41 PM GMT

If there were an elected leader people might start giving again. At present the Party is pretty well bust anyway, and under Gordon it will probably get even worse.


[ Parent ]

Re: Goodbye Gordon (#31)

by jaymason on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:39:30 PM GMT

like it or lump it labour are stuck with Gordon, as if they get rid of him they will have to call an election, which at the moment labour can't afford. Therefore the UK and the PLP will have to stick with him whether either of us like it or not.

Bust Britain, bust party no more boom (for now anyway) just bust


Re: Goodbye Gordon (#32)

by purplemeanie on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:47:03 PM GMT

gordon or no gordon, the only way to stop the tories getting their hands on the reigns is to adopt PR - now.



Goodbye Gordon | 33 comments (33 topical)