The hard left offer no solutions

The stupidest argument since the local elections debacle has been that Labour should "go for broke" - it is almost the classic definition of sectarian.

A sectarian of the left is one who defines himself by the differences he has with the public (as Ken Livingstone once memorably said "no compromise with the electorate").

That aspect has been on prominent public display since Thursday with people suggesting Labour should "go for broke" or similar.

Instead of focussing on the issues that have won us three elections - educational standards, high quality health care and being tough on crime and its causes, we are urged to do things like abolish grammar schools, introduce a written constitution (they talk of nothing else down the dog and duck)  and tax the rich till the pip squeak.

These "solutions" are usually combined with a claim we're following "Tory" policies (though I don't remember the Tories trebling health spending and aiming to raise participation in higher education).

[I don't like grammar schools any more than the next comrade (and I went to one), but I don't regard smashing them as key priority. Far better, I'd say, to turn every secondary modern into an academy.]

But more than anything the hard left attack reveals their inner core: they don't think social democrats really should be in power. The mere act of producing election winning policies is a compromise too far and it is far better to return to the natural order of the Tories in power and the left in the streets, protesting.

That is why they advocate a policy programme that merely seeks to polarise and not actually win any new support for progressive policies and politics.

For sure their programme would get a few thousand Guardian readers out to the polls and may even raise turnout in some safe Labour seats. But would it help us win seats in the suburbs, or North Kent?

It's a programme designed to return us to opposition because that is all its advocates feel comfortable with.

Well I'd prefer a thousands days of ideological compromise with Labour to ten minutes of Tory rule.

I'm going to fight for that fourth term, not surrender to the idea a Tory victory is inevitable.



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Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#1)

This is a classic mixture of strawmen and ostrich-head-in-sand dogma. 

Your 'compromise' is going to get you a Tory government.  If we can't re-engage our voters, our supporters and our members; if we can't convince all the members of the vast winning coalition that has got us into power in previous elections that we are on their side, we will lose.

We can do it.  If your lot are prepared to take risks on genuinely radical, progressive policies that will have a real impact on people's lives.

If you'd rather try more of the same we've had it.

Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#2)

Dunc, I'm so glad you're here to argue for us - I just can't be bothered to argue with these idiotic New Labourites any more...

Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#3)

Well said.

I'm afraid the attitude of some in the party, Mr. McDonnell being the most prominent example given his recent spate of media appearances, is a little selfish. They want the party to become some sort of pre-Blair socialist utopia, knowing fully well that the party doesn't have a hope of succeeding on that platform.

As someone pointed out on McDonnell's comment in the Guardian, Cameron has posed himself as the 'heir to Blair' and he is now winning the most votes. That should tell us something.

Labour needs to be a broad coalition of socialists to centrists and everything in between.

Of course, things always need to be renewed, and fighting on a 1997 platform may not work now. We do need to re-engage with core voters who feel let down. But the answer is most certainly not to pander to the ideas of John McDonnell. Some of his points are good, but most are severely old-fashioned and unworkable.

Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#5)


Could you detail some of the 'severly old-fashioned and unworkable' points?

The truth is that you were proposing constitutional change on another thread (the sort 'tankist' doubts is being debated in the Dog and Duck); none of the policies that anyone is proposing (including John who has been brilliant on this actually - the worst thing that could happen in this situation would be for huge numbers of activists to turn their backs on the party; John's intervention will help prevent that) is 'hard left' or 'old left' or whatever other phrases are being banged out.  They're Labour.  They're about fairness.  And, yes, they'll re-engage with core voters who feel let down.

The old straw man that we're old-fashioned and we want to be in opposition should be withdrawn.  We're all trying to save our government - feel free to disagree with our solutions, but DON'T accuse us of having different motives.

Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#9)

NM, the idea that New Labour was every necessary is utterly spurious. We were winning elections and polling over 40% in the 1990s long before Blair came in charge, on an explicitly democratic socialist platform: he completely squandered that, going for an incredibly unambitious agenda instead of a marginally less popular, but completely electable one. You cannot deny that the potential for a real social democracy was there, and he blew it. No-one's asking for Bennism, we just want a party that stands up for its people, that has a coherent and passionate morality and which speaks in a language that people can understand, not in meaningless, inane buzz-words. The reason that Cameron is winning is because people from across the political spectrum have been disappointed by New Labour - even Tories wish we were more 'real' and more vocal about our values.

Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#11)

I strongly disagree. If we'd have followed the course set out by John Smith, we'd have won one, maybe two general elections at most because the Tories were so bad. But the majorities wouldn't have been nearly as large and then we would have been kicked out promptly.

Tony Blair was in touch with what people wanted. You might differ from those views, but I'm afraid that's not what the majority want.

I'm sure the party can become more progressive in lots of ways, but abandoning too much of the 'New Labour' project will be the death of us.

Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#12)

Perhaps - we'll never know - but we'd've achieved a hell of a lot more in those terms than we will have done in our 13 years of wasted opportunities. The fact is that social democracy works; attempts to reconcile neo-liberalism and social justice do not - I think that would've given us greater longevity. The British people were not scared or disturbed by social democracy in 1994; probably they're still not - but since no-one's mentioned it for a decade, it's completely unknown territory for most people. And I think you'll find the New Labour project has already been the death of us; soon it'll be over, get used to it: this is going to be our party again now.

Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#14)

This is pathetic. It's not your party anyway so get over yourself.

And if you think that when Brown goes it's going to change how you want it to, you're deluded. There will never be a pre-Blair-style government in this country again.

but we'd've achieved a hell of a lot more in those terms than we will have done in our 13 years of wasted opportunities.

If you're talking about nationalisation, building tonnes of council houses and sky-high taxes on the rich then none of those would have been achievements because the following Tory government would have reversed them all (or in the case of council housing, sold them off).

Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#23)

Most supporters aren't asking for Bennite policies. Smith was on the old Labour right. But he was still a socialist. He, unlike other shadow cabinet members was asking for a 50p, not a 60p tax rate. He argued for international reform. He would have kept some New Labour policies, but some Old Labour policies. But until Blair came about, no party was seriously calling for the right to silence to be abolished. The left and right agreed that prison reform was needed. It was Blair's penchant for sickly Clintonian policies on crime (but Clinton, in every aspect, is at least 10x worse), that was indicative of a masochistic hunger for power, that ignored the most important lesson in politics: every empire falls, it's what the empire does that counts. 

Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#24)

I agree that Labour should and can be more progressive. Prison reform is essential and I agree with a more progressive tax system.

But what McDonnell supporters must understand is that hand-in-hand with this you also have to take forward the reforming agenda like welfare reform, public service reform, a consistent immigration policy...

It's interesting you mention Scandanavian models on another thread. It should be noted that in Sweden, schools have far greater independence from the government than they do here and in Denmark, the labour market is more flexible than ours. Scandanavians manage to combine progressive social democracy with liberal free-markets very well.

Do all this, then we'll lose neither core voters nor the floating voters who we need to win.

Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#26)

The Scandanavian model works because of co-operativism. But how do you suggest we tackle the issues of welfare, immigration and crime?

On one hand, the Wisconsin model seems attractive, but there are gaping holes in that system.

On the one hand, I am against uncontrolled immigration, but I support an amnesty on illiegal immigrants, and support Asylum seekers' rights.

On the matter of crime, well-regulated market-forces can tackle certain areas. I am referring to the issues of drugs and prostitution. But how else can we tackle it?

Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#35)

The Wisconsin model is certainly interesting, but it is perhaps too strict and opinion is divided over whether it has been successful or whether it's just forced people who can't find jobs to turn to charity.

On immigration, I fully support free movement of labour within the EU, but I think a points system should be used for anyone outside the EU who wants to come here.

I can't support an amnesty for illegal immigrants - it would give the Tories such an easy ride and it's morally wrong in my opinion.

On crime, I'd very happily see the legalisation (and regulation) of prostitution. On drugs, my socially liberal credentials fall down! I'm not in favour of legalising cannabis, but I don't want it to be reclassified as a Class B drug either.

Maybe we could look at tougher sentences for the worst crimes, but also radical prison reform. We need to remove the one third of prisoners who have mental health problems and build proper facilities for them for example.

Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#22)

New Labour  HAS  been  the death  of Labour and  now  it's  dead. Time for Real Labour   and a Government  which includes everyone from  Ed Miliband to John McDonnell.  The  phrase "all the talents"   springs to  mind.  But Gordon  has to go  because he just won't  do that.

Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#10)

I think it will be a great shame if the blairites/leadership pretends that the only alternative to playing the same tune on the deck of the Titanic with no reverse gear is to invoke hard-left policies.

AV is not hard-left, nor is the environment, not is social housing, nor is improving NHS dentistry, nor is opposing ID cards, nor is opposing 42-days.

Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#13)

Quite. There's nothing here to scare the middle class - most of it's just common sense. Apparently Gordon will start the fightback this morning; I'm praying he'll come on the radio and announce the death of New Labour...we shall see!

Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#15)

Yes, because that really wouldn't scare the middle classes would it?

Jesus christ man, you haven't a clue.

Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#16)

You just don't get it - everyone, across the political spectrum, is sick to death of New Labour, it's style of government, its language, its attitude to people: it's not healthy for politics, it's not necessary, and it's not moral. As I've said, we managed perfectly well to have a broad class coalition before New Labour, and we will manage again after it's gone. We can't carry on like this if we want to win a fourth term. Personally, I don't want a Tory government, but I don't suppose it'd bother you too much - after all, it's what the middle classes want that matters, isn't it?

Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#17)

As I've said, we managed perfectly well to have a broad class coalition before New Labour, and we will manage again after it's gone.

Before New Labour we never served two full terms in government, let alone three.

And it's you who doesn't get it. People are sick of Labour full stop. Not just New Labour. It's what happens in politics.

But looking in the Labour party, I cannot see one single MP of the far left who could ever be Prime Minister of this country. Can you?

Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#18)

Er - look at the Euro elections 1994, with Beckett in charge - 44% of the vote...more than in 97, despite being a social democratic party - funny that, eh? How can people be sick of Labour when they haven't had Labour for 14 years? Of course pendulums swing, but the point now is stopping the swing and reversing it - it can be done, it just takes a little courage. I'm not of the so-called 'far left': I'm probably a Tribunite, but I'm equally happy to be a Hattersleyite. There are plenty of great Labour MPs who would make a fantastic cabinet - Karen Buck, Katy Clark, Emily Thornberry, Ann Cryer, Jon Cruddas, Peter Kilfoyle, Diane Abbott, Angela Eagle, Margaret Beckett etc. As for leaders, I'm happy for Brown to stay so long as he changes policy; unfortunately New Labour's distaste for the broad church has prevented many credible centre-left candidates emerging - it's been sycophancy or nothing for a decade: hardly conducive to a healthy PLP.

Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#19)

What have Euro elections got to do with it? In 1999 and 2004, the Tories won the Euro elections and went on to lose the general elections.

Nobody doubts Labour was popular under Smith, but it wasn't anywhere near as popular as Labour under Blair.

I'm sorry, but your vision for Labour is never going to be realised. It's a cold, hard reality you're just going to have to get used to.

Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#20)

Oh well then, let's not worry about the Tories getting 44% in the locals then, shall we? That result - and all the other opinion polls at the time - indicated that a totally workable coalition existed prior to New Labour - to pretend otherwise is simply false. We do not have to please everyone! Better to lose some votes than tie yourself in to kow-towing to people whose interests are opposed to our own. And don't patronise me; my 'vision' is simply that Labour returns to what it was before Blair - a party with a heart, which believed in 'doing as you'd be done by'. I really don't think that's too much to ask...

Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#4)

I used the phrase "go for broke", and I didn't mean old style hard-leftism. Not for a second. We don't just have a binary choice between Blairites and  the hard left. We could have a European reformist social-democratic approach that happily sits somewhere in the middle of both.

Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#6)

Absolutement. Ask yourselves this question. Do you Labour supporters want to live in Sweden, or Texas? If the former, we can appeal to people's moderate, progressive tastes, while still keeping our commitments to socialism- whether democratic, or social democracy. I don't agree with all aspects of Sweden's policies, on say, Drugs or Prostitution, but not adhering to policies on matter like that, could still be compatible with building a Swedish model.

Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#7)

Whether the term "hard left" has, or ever had, much use I rather doubt. And it seems odd to criticise the left as "sectarian" in a posting that completely smacks of sectarianism.

Let us be realistic. We all know that the party (like any major party) is a coalition. It has to be a coalition. If it is not a coalition it does not exist. Our task now is to construct a coalition that will hold our party together and also attract that coalition of voters to enable the policies to be put into effect.

The somewhat dogmatic "New Labour" agenda that has dominated our party has actually ruled out sensible policies that would attract a lot of popular support (e.g. nationalised railways). But whatever wing of the party you are from I do not think it is too difficult to put together a programme that would attract a broad consensus in the party and in the electorate (you could call it social democracy if you like).

That is policy. Another aspect is the rebuilding of a democratic party with democratic machinery, that was unfortunately so damaged by Blair - in that Faustian compact that seemed to trade power for internal democracy. Without a functioning democratic party we are lost, as the recent elections partly illustrate.

A third aspect is leadership. To be honest, even if we might believe Gordon Brown not to be the most natural leader, it does not look feasible to me to replace him this side of a general election without courting further disaster. And if we were all to be able to rally round him, hold our nerve and reconstruct our Labour coalition, then we can still win a general election.

Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#8)

You criticise and you criticise, but what policies do you have? More city academies? More of the same!! Don't you learn? New Labour is not an asset anymore!

Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#21)

Why are so many numbskulls in the party saying this is a mid term issue and we will eventually recover.  A 20% deficit to the tories is shocking and makes the days of Michael Foot look like an election winner.

The New Labour policy of triangulation by shifting to the right and EXPECTING the poor and working class to vote for us anyway has now failed.  The poor and working class are staying at home or voting for someone else.

McDonnell is right in saying that all the hard working councillors we have lost is a result of New Labour policies. The 10p tax rate is a perfect example.  The Tuc & Tax Justice Network have estimted the level of tax avoidance of the rich and large companies equates to between 37 & 125 billion a year.  Between 1500 & 5000 pounds is what the average family is paying to subsidies the tax avoidance of the wealthy but lower income families are told they have to pay more tax!  The real benefit scroungers are not the poor but the wealthy avoiding tax to a huge degree and expecting us all to pay and subsidies there income.


If Labour nationally had adopted a fairer local taxation system, addressed the pitifully low level of benefits including jobseekers allowance and income support, pushed for a large first class council house building programme and a minimum wage of 7.00 an hour or more and reduction in the working week working people WOULD have turned out to vote for it.  By adopting a minimal programme they are staying at home.

Brown is yesterdays man.  New Labour was formed in 1995 based upon election defeats in 83, 87 & 92.  Many of the people who voted for Thatcher have either died or changed there views.  We are 16 years on from 1992 and have a new electorate who will think differently from the mid 80's.  What a poor lack of imagination from Brown and his Ministers.  We are likely to lose the next election and after that we may a shift to the left with a new leader.  Then we will see the majority of New Labour MP's suddenly become socialists as many MP's did under Blair.

As usual career ambition over rides principle.  What weak lot we have in the PLP/

Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#25)

Agree the hard Left haven't the solutions; you could liken them to the fanaticism of a relgious sect, with few practical solutions to today's problems. Its Progressive Labour that has to evolve from new Labour, otherwise the Party will be confined to a really long spell in opposition.

Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#27)

The left does have the solutions  - New Labour is the problem.We're not buying the "loyalty" ticket anymore as it will  only lead to catastrophe. Our  loyalty is to the thousands   betrayed by New Labour and the 300 councillors betrayed on Thursday.

Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#28)

Just take a look at Seamus Milne's calls for a shift to the left. Even the Guardian regulars are mocking him.

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/seumas_milne/2008/05/the_progressive_premium.html

Sorry, you're just going to have to accept that your beliefs have come and gone. Britain's moved on.

Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#33)

1945: a shift to the left
1978: a shift to the right
twenty years later, Labour, therefore, move to the right
2008: a shift to the left, therefore Tories become more 'moderate'.

Why did people vote for 'Red Ken' for 8 years? Why was he rejected now? People turned out in droves for Ken, even when they were turning off Labour. It was only because a colonialist buffoon looked like a clown, that he was defeated. Maybe Ken wasn't as 'Red' as he used to be, but he still carried that name.

I don't particuarly care for Seamus Milne's articles. But if you asked people why they were turning off Labour, the biggest reason was about taxation, especially that of the 10p rate. The middle-classe are revolting about non-doms, and taxation on the uber-rich.

Every 30 years, a massive shift in political opinions happen. It was thirty years since the shift to the right. Notice how the Tories had to become more moderate in order to gain any credibility. Notice then, how Labour looked like they were standing for nothing. Britain is shouting out for more progressive taxation. It's not that New Labour types can't hear it, it's that many are choosing not to listen.

Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#34)

How can progressive taxation be considered extreme or "hard left"? It's like the UK has become America.

Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#29)

If you are not loyal then get out. End of. Freeloaders can get lost.

Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#30)

Oh there's a solution.  When you hit rock bottom start digging.

Idiot.

Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#31)

By freeloaders do you mean a large number of lackeys elected in 1997?

Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#32)

Also, don't say 'End of'. It's quite sickening

Re: The hard left offer no solutions (#36)

Why don't you get out? Or at least shut up. End of.