Should Govt. abortion rebels resign?

It's "Mad" Nad Dorries and her religious fundamentalist friends

The piece above got lost last night due to a technical error. Many apologies to those commenters whose contributions were lost.

Last night, sense and liberty prevailed and the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill provisions were passed.

Four issues were granted a free vote by the Government. These were amendments on abortion, the study of chimeric embryos, the saviour siblings issue and the removal of discrimination against lesbians seeking IVF treatment.

There is a strong argument that there should not have been free votes on these issues, however, I'd like to put that to one side.

A number of Ministers, including three members of the Cabinet, voted against this Government legislation on the grounds that it was a matter of conscience.

I strongly agree that MPs should rebel against their parties on matters of conscience, if they believe the issue is important and their party's position is ethically unsupportable. In the same way, I would support a soldier who disobeys an order that he or she believes to be unsupportable.

Yet I don't understand how it can be described as taking a stand on a matter of conscience when there are no consequences for having done so. A soldier who refuses an order to commit a war crime risks sacking, trial or in some countries, execution. But the ministers, some of whom are whips, risked nothing when taking their stand.

Robin Cook and John Denham rebelled on the votes to go to war with Iraq because it was a matter of conscience, and in doing so, they understood that the consequence was the need to resign from the government. A small number of Labour rebels vote against the Government on all sorts of issues, the vast majority of which could be described as a matter of conscience, yet it is clear that this prevents them from being promoted.

I disagree with the rebels on the HF&E Bill, but I respect their stance. However, can someone explain to me how we can expect any backbencher to be disciplined and respect the whip on issues that trouble their own consciences when ministers and whips remain in post after rebelling against government legislation?

Should the HF&E rebels resign?


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Re: Should Govt. abortion rebels resign? (#1)

Yes

Re: Should Govt. abortion rebels resign? (#2)

No. Its a free vote.

Re: Should Govt. abortion rebels resign? (#3)

There were no rebels because it was a free vote. To retrospectively change the terms on which MPs voted would be unacceptable even if it was a suitable subject on which a whip could be imposed, which it wasn't.

Re: Should Govt. abortion rebels resign? (#4)

Agree. Matters of 'conscience' should always be left to a free vote.

Re: Should Govt. abortion rebels resign? (#7)

I think peoples view on progressive taxation is a matter of conscience, some parties should stand for certain values, people who voted against the bill in my view don't support those values.

Re: Should Govt. abortion rebels resign? (#5)

correct me if i'm wrong but weren't the Iraq war votes free votes?

Re: Should Govt. abortion rebels resign? (#8)

None of the Iraq war votes were free votes; they were all three line whips.

That being said, because so many MPs were going to rebel, the usual logic of MPs fearing retribution if they broke the whip did not apply. Voting against the government on Iraq might jeopardise the possibility of a ministerial career but if the MP had already worked out that this wasn't going to happen, they could vote against happy in the knowledge that the consequences would be limited.

Re: Should Govt. abortion rebels resign? (#6)

Technically aren't most votes a 'matter of conscience'? It seems to me that most free votes based on 'matters of conscience' are actually just easy ways for leaders to avoid facing a huge rebellion.

Re: Should Govt. abortion rebels resign? (#9)

I support abolishing the whip for backbenchers. But the point is not that I disagree with Browne, Murphy and Kelly, but that they showed that their subjective religious reasoning takes authority over an objective analysis. Collective Cabinet Responsibility is a must. They should resign.

Re: Should Govt. abortion rebels resign? (#10)

I don't agree that they should resign because it was a free vote.

But I'd be lying if I said it doesn't disappoint me that the likes of Geraldine Smith, Claire Curtis-Thomas and Ruth Kelly choose to side with the Tories and the Roman Catholic Church rather than with values of equality and women's rights which have stood with the party since its existence.

Also, it's not often you'll hear me praise this man, but well done to the Shadow Chancellor George Osborne - he voted against every amendment to lower the abortion time limit and he voted for IVF treatment for lesbians. Fair play to him for not following the sheep on his side.

Re: Should Govt. abortion rebels resign? (#11)

I do hope not. Even at the very first party branch meeting I attended (in 1985) I spoke against the notion that votes on abortion should be whipped. No government could function if it didn't occasionally allow conscience votes on this kind of issue. I voted for 20 (and then 22) weeks. I would have done so even if we hadn't been offered a free vote. The government could have survived my own resignation, but would have lost a lot of other ministers too.

 Tom Harris MP

Re: Should Govt. abortion rebels resign? (#12)

I tend to agree.  But what makes you think that abortion is an issue of conscience whilst war, privatisation, 10p, etc, are not?

Re: Should Govt. abortion rebels resign? (#13)

I was at the first conference of the Labour Abortion Rights Campaign and I think thte Abortion law we have is too restrictive. I'm very much against imposing whips on this subject: its just an excuse for ignorant attacks on Catholics and we need that like we need an Engllish Milosivic.

Re: Should Govt. abortion rebels resign? (#14)

Labour rebels ? Resign ? Come on please the Secular Humanists don't own the Party. As it was a free vote there were no rebels but even so why should people of good will resign even if they are in the minority for the moment. The fact is the abortion act was never intended as a form of late contraception. Medical science has improved to a point where children born at 24 weeks are surviving. To suggest after the event that those who dare hold the above view should not be allowed to hold responsible positions in the party just demonstrates yet again what an intolerant  bunch the secular humanists really are. Labour has a long history of being the voice of Christian social democrats in this country and we should continue to be a broad church that includes these people and their views IMHO.

Re: Should Govt. abortion rebels resign? (#15)

Today's Labour party is broadly secular thank goodness - we don't need to be spokesmen for the Church - we can leave that to the Tories.

Re: Should Govt. abortion rebels resign? (#16)

Please. There are many individual religious adherents, who no-one can ever hope to be as exemplary as. However, there are also many religious people who can support embryology research. But Kelly, Murphy, and Browne could offer no reason other than embryology research makes them feel uncomfortable, or uttering nonsense about 'Frankenstein' style creatures, as to why they opposed the bill. So it was a subjective reasoning. My problem is not that they are pro-life, it is that on this issue, objective reasoning failed them. Why can't they say they are pro-life, going around the country, trying to lower the amount of abortions, but still vote to keep legalised abortion, like other christains did?

Re: Should Govt. abortion rebels resign? (#17)

It has always been accepted that these kind of issues are subject to Free Votes.  Brown tried to violate that convention but a strong campaign (including a letter to The Times signed by over 100 leading figures from all sides of the debate) restored the position of a Free Vote.  So on a Free Vote they should not resign.

Whether they should resign for other reasons is a matter for them :-) 

Re: Should Govt. abortion rebels resign? (#18)

They aren't obliged to resign seeing as it was a free vote, as someone said above you can't change the rules afterwards. But it was a mistake to allow a free vote in the first place. All politics is either technical issues or moral issues -aka those of conscience. To say that religious morality is inherently superior to other morality, and that therefore votes that have religious issues therefore deserve more freedom of individual choice is a bizzare concept. If a minister was a pacifist at the time of the Iraq vote they would have either kept quiet or resigned. That's how it should be for Christian ministers on issues like abortion. Religious morals are no more deserving of special treatment than other morals, and it isn't anti-religion to say so.