Policy consultation - what do we want?

According to the Guardian, policy documents are winging their way to CLPs and union branches immediately after the elections, and we will be given full opportunities to submit as many amendments as we wish.  I'm not 100% sure what happens then (NPF members care to enlighten us?) but it sounds like a positive step.

Best when we're boldest?

Here's a great opportunity to get some radical policies discussed at the highest levels.  However, if every CLP submits a slightly different amendment any water could be very easily muddied.  While there's likely to be much disagreement on a broad party-wide forum like this, it does seem like a good arena in which to knock around some ideas and some forms of words.

What do we want to see?

A few to start with, for my part:

* Government bills on Trade Union Freedom and Agency Workers (perhaps one big Workers' Rights Bill)

* Finish off Lords reform, quickly, and go for 100% elected

* 4th Option re: social housing



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Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#1)

Agreed, but I don't favour a fully-elected Lords until we have AV and compulsory voting for the commons: that should be our number 1 priority constitutionally. A fully-elected (almost certainly PR) Lords would be a huge challenge to the legitimacy of the commons in its present form. I think an interesting approach would be for MPs to remain linked to constituencies, elected by AV, and for 'peers' to be elected on regional lists/STV, with no specific geographic affiliation. Then the legitimacy of the MPs would not be challenged, and everyone would have a representative of their party to go to for help at the regional level. It would take a while to bed in, obviously, and the allocation of responsibilities would be a little unclear.

A commitment to tackle economic inequality is also absolutely essential, but I'll leave it to better minds than mine to specify policies to that end. Certainly we need the 4th option and TUFB; I'd also like to see the ring-fencing of tax revenue from cars, to be used on public transport - that would make it seem a lot more legitimate.

Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#2)

Nationalise the banks.

Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#3)

This is certainly the time to act to push for radical policies and a return to the centre-left.

However I an under no illusions that this is anything other than another gimmick by no-substance Brown.

Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#5)

Yes you are right. It's an attempt to head off demands for Brown's departure which could follow bad results tomorrow. Won't work though.

Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#4)

I think if there was an overwhelming response in favour of:

AV/PR
Agency Rights
and so on.

Then it would get noted, if it's millions of little amendments with little general direction then it will be easier to ignore.

If most places say the same thing then it will be easier to implement, it could be done legitimately and with the idea that all of the Labour party are behind it.

It might also give him a bit of leeway re: 42 day detention is everyone is against it. 'I have listened to the party...' etc. That said his comments in PMQs suggest that's not going to happen!

I love the idea, how far it changes things will only be seen in practise, but in fairness I could never imagine this sort of thing happening under Blair, even as a gimmick. Maybe I'm wrong though.

Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#6)

I think I am right in saying that the bill extending the detention period comes before the house before the deadline for submissions to National Policy Forum. We'll have to rely on MPs to do the job we sent them there for, in that case.

Agree totally with the views on agency workers rights, social housing, etc. And I like the idea for AV on constituency basis for MPs and PR for the Lords. How about a move to institute the living wage? I am also becoming much more sympathetic to the idea of devolving more power to local government. Any thoughts?

Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#8)

I worry about more power for local government - the national govt tends to get blamed regardless. Also, it's bad for those living in pockets of poverty in rural areas. For instance, is it fair that Oxfordshire County Council has huge power over Oxford's council estates? I'd rather have a more interventionist national government, to be perfectly honest.

Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#9)

In my experience the reverse if often true, voters use local elections to give national governments a good shoeing, regardless of how the local council performs. I also think there is nothing wrong with making councillors more accountable to their constituents - give them more responsibility and if they mess up people would be more likely to take note and give them the heave ho.

Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#7)

A renewed comitment to civil liberties, including habeus corpus, and a dismantling of some of the more reppressive legislation of recent years. Rejection of detention without charge for 42 days.

An end to the British forces occupation of Iraq and Aghanistan and a commitment to a genuine peace process in these countries.

A commitment to abide by the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and to acknowledge our responsibility under the treaty to pursue our own nuclear disarmament.

Repeal of conservative anti-trade union legislation.

An end to PFI and PPP policies and a halt to further privatisation.

Review of planning legislation and the instigation of a comprehenisve review of urban development under a leading architect such as Lord Rogers.

The decriminalisation of illicit drugs (as a major crime reduction and public health initiative).

A 100% elected second chamber.

The restoration of local democracy. Decentralisation of many central government responsibilities to a local level. Introduction of proper checks and balances on the power of directly elected mayors.

The restoration of the democratic machinery of the Labour party.

Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#15)

1) Yes
2) Yes and no. I have recently changed my view on Iraq. In principle, I am now in favour of intervention. I think we have achieved some left-wing goals. Stopping Saddam getting access to North Korean missiles, and Niger's uranium ores. Reversing the biggest ecological disaster in modern history, inflicted upon the Marsh Arabs. Increase sovereignty for the Kurds, and eventually independence. A coherent hydrocarbon law, that stops Iraq being exploited by China, Russia, and France (and the French nuclear industry) as well as US oil companies, and the Saudi Arabian wahabi sect, and the Iranian theocratic fascists. The restoration of the largest Democratic Socialist movement in the Arab world, and of a free trade union movemnet. Of course the US and UK have failed to stop the carnage, for which they should be criticised. But to help Iraq, the left in the western world must show solidarity with our Iraqi comrades. By all means, lets be disgusted by neo-liberalism being enforced, leading to deeper inequality, and unemployment rates, and segregation. But lets be disgusted by the death of Hadi Saleh. Lets show our brotherhood with Jalal Talabani and Abdullah Muhsin etc. Lets support universal healthcare, public education, trade union rights and redistribution of wealth, which is achieveable. See Afghanistan on a later topic of yours.

3) Yes

4) No-banning employment discrimination, on the basis of union membership and introducing democracy seems to be the right step. But this democracy should be extended, to allowing the workers to have a say in how their workplace is run.
5) Yes

6) Yes
7) See my piece on ending prohibition on drugs. It would boost Afgan democracy significantly.
8) Yes-based on the German federal system.

9) Yes-pehaps allow all council legislation to be directed to the mayor's office, and they can veto legislation. Allow for devolved English regional parliaments, and increased power for the Welsh and NI assemblies.

10) Who doesn't agree with that?

Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#19)

I don't want to send this thread down the route of a row about Iraq, but...

* The Kurds had autonomy before the invasion and, to a certain extent, are now more vulnerable to incursions on their regional sovereignty (from south and north)

* Your reference to the enforcement of neo-liberalism does not sit easily with your suggestion that there is legislation protecting Iraq from exploitation by US oil companies - in fact US oil companies have made a killing and all the talk about oil profits being 'kept in trust for the Iraqi people' nothing but smoke and mirrors.

* The uranium from Niger story was always a lie.  Repeating it 5 years later does not stop it from being a lie.  You can read about it here.  If you're tempted to doubt the UN, the Israeli government agreed too.  The documents upon which the whole story was based were forgeries.

* We are spending much of our time supporting a faction that is in out-and-out alliance with what you call Iranian 'theocratic fascists' against other factions in Iraq, for no obviously useful purpose.

We need to say we were wrong, and we need to ask for international help to get out.  Could we really tolerate the possibility of, if there is a change in government in the US, us being the only significant world government saying the Iraq escapade was anything other than a disaster.

Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#20)

Jkitleft
We seem to have a lot of common ground here. I can not agree with you about Iraq and the achieving of "left wing goals." It's reminiscent of the old argument about exporting socialism by conquest - the Russian 'liberation' of Eastern Europe. Your position is admirably detailed but it neglects to take into account human dignity and people's wish for national self determination - in general people do not wish to be forcibly occupied except for brief specified periods. Some have pointed to Japan and West Germany as examples of happy occupations (perhaps) but both those regimes were utterly defeated and imploded (especially Germany). Iraqis were, it appears to me from this distance, not well disposed to the West before the invasion, having suffered the Western support of Sadam, Western bombardment of Iraq and severe UN sanctions.

In fact we (the US and UK primarily) have reduced Iraq to a pitiful state in which many Iraqis apparently believe conditions are worse than under the hated Sadam.

We have failed miserably to secure a true political solution and are now sponsoring a civil war against elements of the Shia.

We caused a very high mortality in the destruction of Fallujah as the Lancet paper makes clear. Overall, the paper makes clear that the Western invasion and its aftermath has led to over 660,000 excess deaths.

Iraqis are not stupid and understand that the real motivations of the invasion had nothing to do with humanitarian goals and was about their oil - control of their oil and also limitations on the power of Iran.

The US administration has no intention whatsoever of leaving Iraq and is constructing permanent bases in the country.

The insurgency (and I am not talking about the most extreme elements like Al Qaeda) appears to have a fairly wide popular base.

Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#38)

Ok- I have been debating Iraq, and I've moderated my views-again.

I have come to this conclusion: In principle, I would've supported intervention, but like all of Blair's policies, the plans were written on the back of a fag packet.

I believe that Blair should've addressed the Socialist International, with words to this effect:

"On September 11th, the United States was attacked. It was an attack felt by all in the western world though. It's unwarrented, unprovoked, and coldblooded nature, shocked us all. Iraq was the only nation to endorse these attacks. I cannot be sure that Saddam is developing WMD's. But no-one can doubt, that he wants them, and would use them if he had them. Even if he was found not to be developing weapons, an intervention would be a step forward for non-proliferation. This is an oppertunity to rid the world, of one of the greatest tyrannies, in modern history. The time has come, to ensure that in a world now aware that we are all under threat from religious extremism, that Saddam's tyranny comes to an end. UNICOM say that he would like to develop weapons. He's butchered Iranians, and Kurds with chemical weapons. He says his biggest mistake was not developing a nuclear bomb before he invaded Kuwait. He unleashed ecological catastrophes on Kuwait, and the worst in modern history, according to UNESCO upon the Marsh Arabs in Southern Iraq. This is an oppertunity, to allow the Iraqi people to build a democracy, based on the social-democratic values, of which we as socialists, adhere to. So we must support our Iraqi comrades such as Jalal Talabani or Kanan Makiya, to ensure that Iraqis get universal healthcare and public education, trade union rights and redistribution of wealth, tackling inequality and smashing poverty and unemployment. As for oil, we must ensure that no longer will oil companies exploit the oil fields of Messopotamia, off the backs of the despotism enforced upon Iraqis, in order to avoid starvation. We must ensure that the Iraqi people, have access to their oil supplies, free from the exploitation of western society. Let them rebuild their society, with their oil, so that Shias and Sunnis, Men and Women, Kurds and Arabs, can rebuild their society as an example of the wonders that humanity can acheive. Let freedom ring across Iraq, and the Middle East. Let us rid the world, of the butcherer of the Kurds, and the Marsh Arabas, the democrats and the traade unionists, the socialists and the dissidents. If we don't forget the plight and suffering of the Iraqi people, the Iraqi people, will not forget us."

This could've rallied left-wingers across the world to supporting intervention. It could've stuck a tone with those old enough to remember fighting fascism, in Spain, Greece, Portugal, Italy and Germany. Those who fought oppression in India and South Africa may also have responded similarly. Those countries bearing the brunt of the immigration from the oppressed Kurdistan: Austria, Sweden etc. may have heeded the call, to fight for the removal of Saddam, if they thought that the European social democrats and socialists could help the largest Arab Democratic socialist movement in the world. Liberals and moderates in places like Canada and the United States may also have fought for this cause, in larger numbers.

If Blair had conveyed his case like this, addressing the concerns and questions about the nature of the intervention, it could have been much simpler. perhaps with a larger international presence, Iraq would be a more peaceful country today. Maybe France, or even Russia could have supported the intervention (well, with change in leadership of the presidency).

But again, Blair had instead spun and spun and spun. It ensured that the post-war planning, like his case for war which was written on the back of a fag-packet, would be disasterous.


In principle, I would've supported it. But I believe that the left could've done better to ensure that Iraqis were not subjected to neo-liberalism, and the far more dangerous religious fanaticism in Iraq. There were no major left-wing groups saying 'Ok, Blair's case for war was fraudulant. But our main priority is ensuring that Iraqis can build a fair and equal society. We can criticise Blair and Bush, but we must help our Iraqi comrades, as much as we can.'

I think too many nihilist diatribes were uttered. I think we have failed to stop new forms of tyranny. I don't think we have caused it, but we've failed to stop it. It is now our main goal, to ensure that we can withdraw as safely as possible, while maintaining that the Iraqis can have as much of an egalitarian and peaceful society as possible.

Withdrawing from Afghanistan is simpler: legalisation of heroin.

Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#10)

What is the view on Europe? I suspect that many on the left will be more opposed to the EU, but I for one am very much a Europhile. A superpower than can check America & China whilst hopefull fulfilling a far better humanitarian role is, I believe, good for the world.

Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#11)

Whilst there is an argument for the EU as a counterweight to the USA, I see little evidence of that power having been used effectively, and the anti-democratic nature of the EU is something we should condemn unconditionally. In a globalising world, we have to ensure that the key units of governance remain ones with which people can identify, and over which they feel they have some control. The EU appears to be an inpenetrable bureaucracy over which ordinary people have no power - that's unacceptable. If it gets its act together, maybe it will be worthwhile, but it's not acceptable in its current form.

Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#12)

I agree that the current way that the EU operates is bad. Power needs to be taken away from the Commissioners and their gigantic beaurocracy and given to the Parliament instead to make it more democratic. It needs to be more flexible on things like the Common Agricultural Policy which is now really starting to bite: We have a food crisis - why not grow some wheat (and boost Britain's economy in the process)?

Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#14)

I think that the EU should be a free-trade agreement. And that's it. But, if countries want a joint currency, that's fine with me. I think that it's compatible with having a free-trade agreement.

Currently, though. They spend half of their budget negating the idea of free trade, shackling Africa into poverty. With agricultural subsidies.

Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#13)

Yay, thankyou Duncan for opening up a thread I have wanted for what seems like several years.

I'm not sure about repealing Thatcher's trade union bills.

What would be the best legislation for unions, in my opinion, is a Workplace Democracy act, taking elements of co-operatives into the private and public sectors. Yes to the Agency Worker's Bill, though. But if we enact elements of co-operatives, initiatives like the minimum wage may not be needed.


Constitutional reform: Lords should be based on the German devolution system. So devolved parliaments to every UK region (so NI, Wales, Scotland, and the 9 English regions). We need a constitution, largely based on elements from the US constitution. Introduce a secular republic. AV+ for the Commons.

Now, with housing: Capital Gains tax should be back up at 40%. Capital raised on reciepts from selling council homes, should be diverted to spending on housing. There are 300,000 unused plots, with 700,000 unused homes. Build on them first.

I'll get back to you with other proposals.



Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#16)

I agree with changing capital gains tax, ut I think it should have varying rates like income tax.

I'm also quite intrigued by a federal system with regions divided up, but I can't see it being more than a pipe dream. At least not for a very long time. It is I think too raical to be popular. 

Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#18)

Have you seen the content of John McD's Trade Union Freedom Bill?  It was pretty moderate but important stuff, bringing us in line with most modern democracies.

You can see some of the detail here.  Combined with the excellent Temporary and Agency Workers bill that has been attempted a couple of times now too, we could have a really impressive Workers' Rights Bill that would be a great example of the government being 'best when we're Labour'.

I have long campaigned for regional government and moving towards a federal-type system; I'd be happy to see it back on the agenda at least, though I think it is unlikely to be embraced in the short term.

Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#28)

I've fleshed this out further on Labour Left Forum here.

Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#17)

Change Capital gains tax to 40% and most financial services business will go abroad.

Goodbye 1 million jobs.
Most private capital - as in people's private savings - will probably follow.

Please if you are going o stray into economics policy, learn the basic economic facts of modern life. UBM is not going to lmove its HQ from London to Ireald for fun: it's because of Darling and his incompetent meddling with tax.  Other big companies are going to follow.
Geese and golden eggs.

There is no need to follow the example of Darling and screw everything up...

Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#21)

1) Introduce AV for the Commons and give each part of the country its fair share of seats based on its population.

2) 100% elected upper chamber by PR

3) Devolution within England - including Mayors and Assemblies for cities outside of London, like Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds etc.

4) Referendum on separation of Church and State

5) Referendum on joining the Schengen Zone (with the government campaigning for a 'yes' vote)

6) Legislate for same-sex marriage

7) Abandon socially conservative policies which suck up to Daily Mail readers (like on alcohol, gambling, cannabis reclassification...)

8) Raise the threshold for paying income tax and NI to £10,000 and to make up for this by raising either income tax or NI on the top earners.

9) Abandon 42 day detention without trial plans and bring back habeas corpus.

10) Big increase in investment on public transport - more light rail schemes in our cities and invest in a high-speed rail line linking North and South.

Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#23)

You'll be surprised to hear I agree in almost every particular!

The two I'm leaset sold on are: AV for Commons (no objection to it, but it wouldn't be high up my list of priorities); mayors and assemblies for provincial cities: I'd be more keen to see regional assemblies, with first ministers.

Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#24)

Well that's good to hear Duncan!

I'd prefer regional assemblies too to be honest, but I just don't think they're ever going to happen. People seem to have greater affinity with their cities and counties than with regions.

Mayors and assemblies for the cities outside of London would still be a good outcome.

Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#25)

I agree that Birmingham and Manchester should do away with the conventional city councils and have assemblies with more power, being England's 2nd and 3rd cities afterall.

Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#26)

I like the idea of the Schengen Zone but it will not go down well at all with the public. I can see it now - "Labour government abolishes national borders: free entry for theaving foreigners.".

Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#27)

There have been many reports about how staying out of Schengen actually hurts our security interests since we don't share police information with our European counterparts (part of Schengen II).

Also the EU puts really heavy security on its borders these days and we would benefit from that if we joined the Schengen zone.

Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#22)

dunc - could you drop me an email at editor{at}labouroutlook.com ?

Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#29)

Phew I thought you were Labour, not the silly mixture of New Labour Tory.

All councils to bring forward the building of council houses, stopping the right to buy.

The Railways to be brought back under Government control and to ensure Railways and buses are the cheapest method of travel, it has to be with the rise in fuel costs.

NHS stop the privatization.

The Welfare Reforms again we must ensure no multi billion contracts for American cowboy companies and we need to make sure people who are now exempted from working through the use of the DLA total care, are not forced back into work. And Labour to reverse the biggest employers of the disabled the benefits offices are stopped from closing.

Labour to bring back into force local CLP, in other words listen to the people.

Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#30)

If we copy the Conservative manifesto line-for-line, as seen with inheritance, capital gains etc. We invite people to vote for the real thing, because Cameron has higher trust than Brown.

Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#31)

1. Proper proportional representation, not undemocratic AV, for national elections. 2. Make the party democratic again; reverse last September's motion and give CLPs a say again. 3. Reverse the destruction of the welfare state - with a global economic downturn, we need a stronger collective social safety net. 4. Stronger laws on enforcing media neutrality and ending monopolistic ownership. Most importantly, 5.) stop abusing Labour's core voters at the expense of the wealthier middle classes. "Triangulation" and the march to the right won't cut it any more. At this rate, after any spell in opposition, Labour won't be vaguely progressive at all.

Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#32)

Two more. 6.) Replace the regressive council tax with a system that takes income into consideration. 7.) Reverse the increasing casualisation of labour force, so that people can have careers again. 8.) Scrap all plans for diplomas and constant meddling with the education system. That has only led to half-baked qualifications like AVCEs which are practically useless and unrecognised. 9.) Somehow, fix the occupational pension system in this country. As a young adult, it is no longer worse risking contributing to a pension scheme when returns in over forty years time are expected to be £3000/year(!). 

Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#35)

AV for the commons, regional PR for the Lords. AV's not undemocratic - it removes the need for tactical voting, and ensures a high degree of representation. Given that there are over 100 seats where the combined Lib/Lab vote could defeat the Tory (in places like Lincolnshire and Sussex!), it makes sense, and would force us to stop pandering to the swing voters and move to the left, without having to form a coalition or surrender the wise tradition of single-member consituencies which serves us well. AV's also bad for 3rd parties in general, so would hopefully return us to a full-on ideological Lab-Con battle....On everything else I agree with you.

Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#36)

Doesn't sound unmeritable.

Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#33)

I support local income taxes instaed of council tax. I will pay none.. quite legally.

And if you knew anything about your subject , you would realise about 25% of the population -  those on benefits, OAPs   and the wealthy would pay nothing  - which leaves the poor wage and salary earners paying double.

Great idea.  NOT.

I'm sorry but you are spouting ideas with absolutely no idea of their practicality.

Re: Policy consultation - what do we want? (#34)

Did I say local income tax? No.