26%

Group51 Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 12:10:13 AM GMT Print-friendly version Facebook

Woo!  Go New Labour!

 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/24/npoll124.xml





Well done Gordon, the Tony Blair policy continuum is going gangbusters!  Full steam to 2010!

 Holy Smokes!



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26% | 26 comments (26 topical)

Re: 26% (#1)

by otware on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 12:45:50 AM GMT

The shit is hitting the fan at a relativistic speed.


Re: 26% (#3)

by nickc on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 09:27:09 AM GMT

And it's all the fault of Gordon. He, and he alone, has plunged the Party into this mess. He has to go.


[ Parent ]

Re: 26% (#2)

by madasafish on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 07:10:10 AM GMT

Meanwhile a rat deserts..

http://harrietharman.blogspot.com/


Re: 26% (#6)

by CitizenAndreas on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 02:58:35 PM GMT

Or perhaps this is a little closer to the truth.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7366578.stm


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Harriett (#4)

by Julian The Wonderhorse on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 10:20:37 AM GMT

Even the most diehard leftie must have laughed at this one.

Come on, isn't it time to get rid of Gordon?


Re: Harriett (#7)

by CitizenAndreas on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 02:59:14 PM GMT

No, don't be so bloody stupid.


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Re: Harriett (#8)

by otware on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:33:14 PM GMT

Well what do you propose? Him staying? That plan has disaster written all over it.


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Re: Harriett (#9)

by CitizenAndreas on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 07:24:51 PM GMT

Good question..

But let's start with what I don't propose, and that's turning on our party leader just because it's flavour of the month with the media. Gordon's in a tight spot, but the current situation feels more like something of a bandwagon, and I think jumping on is the wrong thing to do.

That said, the current situation is not good, the change to the 10p tax rate was a policy and the polls are not looking good. Gordon has to turn things around and he should have the chance to do that, I'd say let's see how things stand in a year, if it's still bad, it's time to reconsider the leadership situation.


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Re: Harriett (#10)

by NorthernMonkey on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 10:49:23 PM GMT

I think we're going to have to stick with Gordon until the general election. Having two leadership 'contests' in the space of a couple of years is not good for the party in government.

Let's just see what happens on May 1st.


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Re: Harriett (#11)

by doctordunc on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 10:55:27 PM GMT

It may be fortunate then that we haven't had a leadership contest for 14 years...

Having said that, expectations for May 1st are so low (except for me - there can only be a swing to Labour where I'm standing!!) that almost anything can be spun as being not as bad as predicted.  We can probably rebuild from such a scenario tolerably well.  I suspect the main headline from the night could well be one of marginal disappointment for Cameron rather than humiliation for us.  But we shall see.


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Re: Harriett (#15)

by stewrigh on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:03:21 PM GMT

Hey come on Gordon is the best leader you've had since Michael Foot -  Pleeeaase don't get rid of him


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Re: Harriett (#17)

by stewrigh on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:07:39 PM GMT

Yep that's why you simply must keep him


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Re: Harriett (#16)

by stewrigh on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:05:37 PM GMT

No - please don't he's wonderful


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Re: 26% (#5)

by treborc on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 10:45:29 AM GMT

My god you lot have changed a few moths ago you were calling for the return of Blair, oh my god you still are.


Re: 26% (#12)

by Group51 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 01:28:44 AM GMT

I don't want Blair back, and I'm not defeatist.  I'm not a left-winger, I'm a social democrat. I was New Labour when it was right, back in the late 90s.  I haven't moved much, I'd probably vote for Milliband.

I want Labour to have positive policies to vote for (AV and Lords reforn; carbon credits; proper diplomas), not negatives to vote in despite of (42 days; tax cuts for the well-off; war with Iran).  I want policy to be presented coherently, not bit by bit.  

I want the issues that were raised in the deputy  leadership election (housing and services pressure for example), to be centre stage, not Tory issues like inheritance tax, capital gains and fear if immigration.  We can never out Tory the Tories.

I'm utterly perlexed that the Tories are going to end up looking greener that us at the next election.  I was amazed to find that they are proposing to use stamp duty to encourage efficiency renovation in the existing housing stock - oi, I thought that was my idea.

What got me about the 10p fiasco (and I still think the HMRC debacle was our Black Wednesday) was that Gordon Brown was reportedly angry at the rebels when he was in the US.  Given he later said 'we get it', I can only think that he is generally 'out-of-touch'.


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Re: 26% (#13)

by madasafish on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:47:37 AM GMT

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/matthew_parris/article3818366.ece


Re: 26% (#14)

by Free Radical on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 03:08:18 PM GMT

Matthew Paris writes in his article (cited above)

"The best prospects for the Parliamentary Labour Party, though dismal, are to hold its nerve, bite its tongue, cleave to the leader it has and try to keep him upright and on his feet. This should minimise the scale of defeat next time. The party's second-best prospects would lie in dispatching Mr Brown tomorrow, decisively and cleanly, and hoping to anoint a successor.
Labour's worst prospects lie in leaving Mr Brown in place but sniping at him and undermining him until he almost literally cannot stand up any more. It is this third prospect, the worst of all worlds, that looks to me likely."
 
Although he goes on to warn about Tory unpreparedness for office, Paris may have a point about Labour - though he may be overstating Labour's problems - let us remember that he is a Tory and a journalist. Furthermore, things are not comparable to the situation of the end of the Major government when the Tories were tearing themselves apart over one hugely significant policy issue - Europe.

Where is that great policy faultline in Labour now? Nowhere that I can see. The current situation smacks more of a general malaise, anxiety amongst MPs whose seats may be at risk, and some sense of grievance amongst activists denied a leadership election. What we need to do now is hold our collective nerve... No matter what side of the party we are on we all have an interest in winnng the local elections and the coming general election.


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Re: 26% (#18)

by Group51 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:53:54 AM GMT

"This should minimise the scale of defeat next time."

Arrrrgh!  We are only going to lose if Gordon Brown continues as he is doing.  We must not wait until after an election defeat to re-group, re-think and renew; we need to do it NOW!


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Re: 26% (#19)

by Free Radical on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:24:08 PM GMT

We have to be realistic about what we can achieve, and also about the alternatives. In my view the idea that our problems would be solved by substituting a leader now is a fallacy. Do you really think that, for example, David Milliband would come in with some magic wand and restore our fortunes?
Much of the sniping at Brown comes from the ultra Blairites and the media. Other sniping is coming from the disillusioned left. But this is a recipe for tearing the party apart and keeping us out of power. Let's look at policy. Do we want to return to the extreme position that Blair had taken us to and from which Brown has, marginally, rolled back? Few in the party, I believe want that.
My view is that, for better or worse, Brown is our leader at least until a general election. I certainly oppose some policy, especially the inept 42 days proposal and will fight hard to prevent that getting on the statute book. But by and large our best policy is to support the leadership where we can. Otherwise we all lose everything.
Importantly, there is no parallel with Major, because the last Tory government was torn apart by an important policy rift - we have no such comparable rift in the Parliamentary Labour Party.


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Re: 26% (#20)

by otware on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:55:12 PM GMT

I agree that replacing Brown will do little good, in fact it might be detrimental if they don't go to the public for a mandate, so long as the unpopular policy stays the same.


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Re: 26% (#21)

by doctordunc on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:09:00 PM GMT

While I entirely agree that the personality nonsense from the likes of Charles Clarke, Lord Levy et al. is completely pointless and seems almost designed to damage the party at election time, I do have to ask in what ways you feel Brown has (however marginally) rolled us back from the Blair position.  I really don't sense any return to a social democratic agenda.  It feels different, I grant you, but not less right wing.

I think, after May, Brown should take a 'what have I got to lose?' approach and introduce a handful of genuinely bold, genuinely radical and definitively REAL LABOUR policies.  But I sense he won't.  And I sense it's because he doesn't believe in such policies, rather than he doesn't think he could sell them.  According to Guardian, a senior backbencher said 'he was the party's choice'... which, of course, he wasn't.  But, with or without a contest, he would have been the overwhelming favourite.  I can't help feeling a contest would have forced Brown into setting out an agenda.  A bit of vision helps get through the difficult patches, and prevents everything some seeming so reactive all the time.

"On your side" is apparently the new 'message'.  It's not a bad message, but I think it needs to be a two-phase one, and the first bit needs to be showing he's on OUR side - i.e. Labour's side.


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Re: 26% (#22)

by Free Radical on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:13:22 PM GMT

Well at least we are talking about policy.

Otware - what is the 'unpopular policy', specifically? Obviously the 10p tax rate abolition, and I am very opposed to the 42 days legislation. I am also opposed to the continuing preparation of the NHS for privatisation, at least of delivery of service, and to the PFI and PPP schemes. But, by and large, I don't think government policy is particularly unpopular and the maintenance of higher levels of public spending, especially on things like education and the NHS has been very welcome - and much better than under the Tories. I am by the way completely opposed to the ongoing British presence in Iraq and Afghanistan. But in what ways are we worse than the Tories - and is government policy taken as a whole unpopular?
To doctordunc - I always saw Brown as a neoliberal, very little different to Blair. So, not having high expectations of change I am not particularly disappointed in Brown. I agree with almost everything you say, but I stand by my assertion that Brown has rolled back marginally on Blairism - and that is in not pursuing the even more radical rightward course advocated by the likes of Milburn, and, as we have seen in the last few days, having to listen to the party. Furthermore, and importantly there has been a very welcome policy shift away from uncritical support for the US Republican adminstration's position.
Certainly it would have been better for him to set out an agenda. But I go back to the big picture - a Labour government, even a rightwing neoliberal one is still worth defending, as better than the Tories. It is also a government that we have some hope of influencing through the party. That means that, for better or worse, we have Brown and I think that means we need overall to defend him. Criticise what we see as policy mistakes in a constructive political way, yes, but defend him.


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Re: 26% (#23)

by otware on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:14:32 PM GMT

I broadly agree with you. The unpopular policy I refer to is mainly privatisation and the Iraq war, but there is other stuff too.


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Re: 26% (#24)

by otware on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:14:48 PM GMT

I broadly agree with you. The unpopular policy I refer to is mainly privatisation and the Iraq war, but there is other stuff too.


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Re: 26% (#26)

by doctordunc on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:45:08 PM GMT

Well I agree with you entirely on the substantive point.

(I too had few if any expectations of Brown, politically - but I don't think he's done much which Blair wouldn't have done, and possibly one or two things to the right of Blair; I agree the tone has changed re: the US, but that's partly owing to the reality of a change of personnel here and the prospect of one there).


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Re: 26% (#25)

by Group51 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:13:12 PM GMT

I didn't say I wanted Brown to go.  Brown promised change.  He needs to deliver.


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26% | 26 comments (26 topical)