10p Scandal parked for now - re-unite around New Labour

Frank Field MP and many others throughout the Party almost got the job done, as thankfully Gordon Brown finally had the sense to promise to compensate those poorest people losing out from the abolition of the 10p tax rate. Time will tell if they get anywhere near adequately compensating the lowest earners. People are right to be sceptical and we must be vigilant after this catastrophe.

However, for now we must support the new Labour Government, sidelining an ever-present minority with their outdated left-wing agenda who want to overthrow new Labour and who advocate election-losing, indulgent idealism.

We certainly need to work on getting across where we want to be, and re-connect with day to day concerns of ordinary voters who feel over-taxed, overburdened, and taken for granted by government.

There is much to do if we want any hope of winning the next General Election, but after May 1st we should re-group to carve out a reinvigorated, progressive New Labour agenda for the Election and beyond. The likes of Stephen Byers, Alan Milburn, Charles Clarke, John Reid et al are all needed to steady the ship back to a Blairite course that won us three elections.

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Re: 10p Scandal Sorted - re-unite and Fight (#1)

Dear "Progressive Future"
It's a funny way to go about re-uniting by sectarian attacks on the left in the party. It's actually the right who are looking a little outdated at the moment, with the collapse of confidence in the international banking system, the rescue of British banking by the state, the nationalisation of a major bank, the nationalisation of railtrack, the nationalisation of Metronet, etc.
Furthermore, it seems that the most damaging sniping at the leader has been coming from some of people most associated with "new" Labour - Charles Clarke etc.
Still at least you have lost the capital N from your "new Labour" - that's a good start.

Re: 10p Scandal Sorted - re-unite and Fight (#49)

When it comes to finance you have to follow simple principles, which our party seems to have forgotten.

We used to have three simple principles.

1) you can't be taxed on the same income twice (double taxation).  We dropped that by removing the pension tax credit and as a result pensions are taxed once on the coporation tax before divident and once on the pension income.  The result - a big hole in pensions and the closure of final salary schemes

2) A progressive taxation system.  The more disposable income you have the more you pay.  We dropped that by getting rid of the 10p in the pound rate and all hell breaks loose.

3) You avoid complicated administration.  We dropped that by introducing tax credits which are utterly stupid.  a) they are a regressive tax move for parents who earn more than the taxation thresholds b) they are complex to administer and given that most of us wouldn't trust a civil servant to manage a two car parade I can't for the life of me think why we thought they could handle it c) data starts flying everywhere: the result, our credibility gets shot to bits.

I can't believe we are going to end up with a tory government over such total stupidity by trying to be too clever by half.  Its the same with loans, its the same with the deputy leadership campaign and its the same with tax. 


For a bunch of new labourites who are enamoured with the private sector, they seem to learn very little of how to run a business.


Mind you after the drubbing that we have just received I may just have needed to let off some steam.

Re: 10p Scandal Sorted (#2)

I'm sorry, but that's absurd 'progressive' future. Not only do we not know what's being done yet, but none of this gets us away from the fact that a Labour PM explicitly chose to raise tax on the poor rather than the rich - that is utterly shameful, and nothing can erase that. As for 'election-losing indulgent idealism', I think you'll find it's a surfeit of these disgusting New Labour policies that will lose us the elections, not a deficit. Let me know on May 1st if I'm wrong. If we want to win, we have to get back to our values and inspire people, particularly our activists and supporters. This tax scandal is just an indicator of the total moral vacuity of New Labour - it's just so sad. There are so many 'left' things we can do which have no effect on the swing voters you're so scared of - but you still won't do them. We just need to stop and think - why do we need unity? Is it just so we can enact Tory policies? If so, what's the point - we need to get back to our 'moral crusade'. If we don't, we will certainly lose the next GE.

Re: 10p Scandal Sorted - (#3)

Not nearly enough, see John McDonnell's article on CiF.

Get rid of the conmen, cheats and crypto-Tories, replace them in Government with decent Labour folk and policies, then we can talk about unity.

Re: 10p Scandal Sorted - re-unite and Fight (#4)

"Now is the time to re-unite and support the new Labour Government, discarding the divisive points made by a minority with their outdated left-wing agenda who simply wanted to overthrow Gordon and who advocated election-losing, indulgent idealism."

What a stupid hypocrite. The most divisive people I see are these hardened New Labour types. They do not recognise the right of any ideology to the left of theirs to exist. Luckily history will not look kindly on them.

Re: 10p Scandal Sorted (#5)

The text of Darling's letter is here.

While this may have cooled the political situation, I'm not convinced it will calm those that look at their weekly or monthly pay slips closely, who will see the amount they get there drop due to increased tax. A lesson to learn is to use fiscal drag to slowly adjust the tax system if at all possible.

I'd like to see starting age for the NMW main adult rate reduced a bit, from 22 years old. Seems a cheap and easy thing to do for the usual October re-rating date, which will attract good media coverage for a group the 10p change has hit. I can't see any real justification for 21-year-olds not getting the full adult rate. Lower it to 21 or 20 I say.

Re: 10p Scandal Sorted - re-unite and Fight (#6)

Two things, the people angry about this can't be dismissed as a left-wing minority - that's the last thing anyone would ever say about me in the Labour Party.


Secondly, my initial reading of Darling's letter is that all he has offered is a 'fudge' and it doesn't solve the problems. The bottom line is that this will still hurt low-paid people who are working really hard. It is ludicrous to argue that any form of benefit is better than letting them keep a bigger share of the money they earn through hard work.


Politically it sends out all of the wrong signals. And just stop for a second and think how impossible it will be to explain Darling's fudge on the doorstep.

Re: 10p Scandal Sorted - re-unite and Fight (#7)

If it weren't for the rebels (mostly NOT New Labour) this would have gone through. So, no, I'm  not uniting behind New Labour. We dismantle it bit by bit until we get a Labour Party  worth the name.

Re: 10p Scandal Sorted - re-unite and Fight (#20)

I'm sure if the party 'dismantled' itself the way you want it to, there'd soon be no Labour party at all.

Re: 10p Scandal Sorted - re-unite and Fight (#21)

Whoes fault is the membership crisis then? The "trots"? Look no further than Tony Blair & Co.

Re: 10p Scandal Sorted - re-unite and Fight (#22)

What? Oh yes, the man who led our party to three general election victories and our longest period in government - yes he's the man who's made us unpopular.

Re: 10p Scandal Sorted - re-unite and Fight (#28)

So you deny that membership has fallen?

Re: 10p Scandal Sorted - re-unite and Fight (#41)

No, not at all. It won't stop falling until we're out of government.

Parties in government tend to lose members because members get complacent - parties in oppositon tend to gain members because the people who join want change.

Re: 10p Scandal Sorted - re-unite and Fight (#44)

I hope you're right =)

Re: 10p Scandal Sorted - re-unite and Fight (#31)

Yikes.  You know Mrs Thatcher could claim the same at the end.

Re: 10p Scandal Sorted - re-unite and Fight (#40)

Yes and that's why the Tories love her!

Unfortunately we don't seem to have the same loyalty to our most successful leader. Maybe in a few years...

Re: 10p Scandal Sorted - re-unite and Fight (#45)

"Yes and that's why the Tories love her!"

They got rid of her, and the Thatcherites are known as the loony right, the euro-sceptic wing.  I find it troublingly ironic that it is Blairites, who were meant to be about finding a path between dogmas that are now rigidly clinging to late 90s middle-england policies, unwilling or unable to embrace a third-way.

Re: 10p Scandal Sorted - re-unite and Fight (#47)

That doesn't really have anything to do with what was being said. I said it's a shame to see the lack of loyalty when sticking up for our most successful leader and somehow that got interpretated into Blairites rigidly clinging onto 1990's dogma? And it was Blair who embraced the Third Way anyway.

They got rid of her

Yeh, after 11 and a half years...

Re: 10p Scandal 'parked' for now/beware Old Left (#8)

'rwendland' and 'stuartbruce' both make fair and reasonable comments; yes, it's a far from ideal situation to put it mildly, and naturally the devil will be in the detail.

However, the relief felt today by backbench MPs is surely felt too by reasonable Party members and activists, that we pulled back from the *morally reprehensible* position of letting hard-working, lower-paid childless people & retired women aged 60-64, pay for the tax cut afforded to more affluent people.

I would have been ready to leave the Party if this measure stood.
So goodness knows how some people at the top thought they could do this and think we would swallow it.
Don't ask me, we just have to move on and stay vigilant.

My only point was to advocate getting back on the horse after the leader and some of his allies took us to the precipice, and to focus our energies on the most important battle of May 1st - primarily getting Ken back in for London and defending other Labour reps who also deliver the goods across the country.

As for my reference to a left-wing minority, I'm sorry but this refers to those few commentators who relished the idea of the New Labour leadership/Government falling apart so the Old Left could advocate turning the clock back by touting their unrealistic brand of class-war socialism.

We "hardened New Labour types" have no problem with recognising such views and the right of people to express them. We just want to make sure you stay away from the levers of power. We've come too far  - three election victories and many progressive changes in society, for a minority of inflexible, dogmatic Trots to muck it all up.

After the London and local elections will be the interesting time when those with mainstream, sensible views should get more involved with forming the next manifesto and our future direction that takes further our successes on 'building opportunities and fairness for all'.

Re: 10p Scandal 'parked' for now/beware Old Left (#9)

I think most people in the party appreciate that our problem at the moment is a minority of inflexible, dogmatic neo-liberals who unfortunately haven't been kept far enough away from the levers of power.

Sorry - would have liked to join in the unity love-in but the sectarian attacks appear to have emerged from the original post.

Re: 10p Scandal 'parked' for now/beware Old Left (#11)

"Progressive Future" You are surely naive if you think that the left comprises simply a "minority of inflexible, dogmatic Trots."
There are an awful lot of members who are disappointed (and sometimes apalled) by some government policy without wishing a Labour government to fall apart - yet another of your slurs.

Re: 10p Scandal 'parked' for now/beware Old Left (#14)

The other thing that annoys me about this is that the left have concentrated on the issues and I've seen very little sign of entering the political aspect of the whole thing on our part.  Whereas elements of the right have, once again, taken the opportunity to tear lumps out of each other, posit alternative leaders, attack ministers, etc. without much ideological or principled basis for the attacks (I'm thinking particularly Charles Clarke here, but he's not alone). 

The fact is that this situation has seen left-wing activists and MPs working with centre-left and concerned members and MPs of any and no wings of the party in an entirely constructive way, with a desire to a) join our comrades in defending the least wealthy and most vulnerable in our society (which is what we're here for) and b) to help our party in the lead-up to local elections that were being put in jeopardy by idiocy at the top.  This appears to have been an agenda/prospectus shared by 'progressivefuture'.  As such, the attack on the left seems quite particularly unwarranted and unneccessary.

Re: 10p Scandal 'parked' for now/beware Old Left (#15)

Yes I quite agree. While the real shock-value of the signatures on that amendment came from the surprising ex-ministers, it was the left and centre-left that made up the bulk. If it wasn't for them there would have been no U-turn.

Re: 10p Scandal parked for now (#10)

Please stop worrying about "winning the next election". Worry instead about doing the right thing. Nothing is certain in politics, but realistically at the moment there is (roughly) a 10% chance (at most) of winning the next election, a 20% chance of a hung parliament, a 30% chance of a Tory majority of about 50, a 30% chance of a Tory majority of about 100, a 20% chance of a Tory majority of 150 and a 10% chance that Labour will become the third party and suffer a fate like the Liberals about 80 years ago.

Re: 10p Scandal parked for now (#12)

That seems unlikely given that a CON:40%/LAB:30%/LIB:20% result would still not give the Tories a majority. It's difficult to get over 40% in a British GE, and I can't see a Tory landslide happening any time soon. But introducing AV and compulsory voting is an absolute must, ASAP, if we're to reorient our politics in a healthy, progressive direction, and bring Labour back to its values.

Re: 10p Scandal parked for now (#13)

That's miles off.  I think quite a likely result could be that the Tories get more votes and Labour still win the election (what impact that would have on discussions about PR, etc. I don't know...) 

A Tory majority is still a long-shot; I don't say that to be complacent, just realistic.  It would require a landslide that Cameron has shown no signs of conjuring.  A hung parliament and even a minority tory government are distinct possibilities without a serious turn-around of our fortunes.

Re: 10p Scandal parked for now (#17)

Even before this debacle the Tories are 10 points ahead in the polls. Before the last debacle (the Election that Never Was, just 5 months ago) the Tories were 10 points behind. One more Clunking moment (does anyone here think 42 days isn't barmy??) and we could be looking at 20 point Tory leads.  And does Gordon show any signs at all of learning from his mistakes?  He won't even admit he makes any.

Re: 10p Scandal parked for now (#18)

Yes, but bizzarely the recent ICM poll taken over the weekend puts the tories just 5% ahead, which seems absurdly poor given the current state of affairs, and would still leave Labour with the most seats...ICM are notoriously fickle though...

Re: 10p Scandal parked for now (#35)

See the latest YouGov poll.

Re: 10p Scandal parked for now (#23)

This is the nub of it. The issue is not really new Labour or old Labour - few people outside the Party understand or care very much about labels like that - the problem is that we seem to have landed ourselves with a leader who is not up to the job. No amount of relaunches or policy commissions will change that. The Party has to face the fact that the choice we have is either to lose with Gordon or, possibly, win with someone else. 

Re: 10p Scandal (#16)

Now I've had my rant about sectarianism on the right (sorry I'm having a bad day!) - any chance any of you economist types could come on here and explain how the compensation package is actually going to work, before I try and explain it on the doorsteps on saturday?

Re: 10p Scandal (#19)

Yvette Cooper said on Newsnight the detail will come out in the pre-budget report. Seems like they are working thru options. Only semi-definite is that 60-64 retirees (female only?) will get some extra in the Winter Fuel Allowance (it's easy to do) - a nice bonus before Xmas!

Re: 10p Scandal (#24)

It's not over:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/apr/24/economy.welfare

Re: 10p Scandal (#25)

The compensation package is designed to be as inflexible, expesnive to operate , impossible to understand as possible and with minimal takeup by those in need  . It will involve lots of from filling and be universally unpopular.

Gordon Brown loves his Tax Credits.. universally acknowledged as a great idea in theory , but complex and really useless in practise.

Since Gordon's signature is over all this mess, you don't really think and solution is going to be simple?

If you do, tough. it is not . Even Yvette Cooper had no idea last night.And if she had no idea cos she was not "properly briefed", what do YOU expect? Sense?

Gordon is practising at losing Labour votes: the more he tries the better he gets.

You should not have elected him. It's all the fault of the Labour Party members in choosing such a  leader.

You did elect him? Surely?

Re: 10p Scandal (#27)

What a complete load of Horlicks,

The benefits of tax credits have been huge, incentivising work relative to living off benefits and really making a difference to families with children. Yet you seem content to poison the well by exaggerating the size of the administrative problems.

I therefore conclude that you are either:
a) Thick
b) A Tory
c) Both

Re: 10p Scandal parked for now - re-unite around (#26)

Is this post a parody?

Re: 10p Scandal parked for now - (#29)

The facts are

We should not be taking money from the low earners!!!
There is no comprimise on this.  There should be no need for tax credits.  If workers in families were paid at a reasonable rate, they wouldn't need them.  The Government should increase the minimum wage, review the changes in incapacity benefit and bring back the 10p tax rate.  I am sick of all these credits, give pensioners the index link back now and some credibility.  We are the only party that can deliver on these things!!

Wiseman

Re: 10p Scandal parked for now - (#30)

I'm sorry. Anyone who thinks Tax Credits are the way forward is named Gordon Brown.
They are expensive to administer, are often  incorrect ,require form filling and have an appalling record of incorrect payments causing stress and anxiety to beneficiaries.

It would be far simpler:
to increase the lower tax thresholds so no-one earning say under £10,000pa pays any income tax. Period.
Lowering the upper tax thresholds slightly to pay for it.

Implemented in two months, automatically through the PAYE system.
Bingo.

Instaed we get a complete mess, untargetted , late , retrospective and deigned to hurt the poor.

I say "designed "advisedly. 

Do not believe it was a musatke. The Treasury has modles of the impacts of tax changes. Gordon KNEW he was taxing the poor more before he did it.

He KNEW they would be hit badly. So he's "helping" them by making them reliant on state handouts like Tac Credits.

And he wants to help the poor out of poverty? And the unemployed to  work?

he may say that  but the reality is he wants a client state of people dependent on handouts and a huge army of penspushing civil servats to administer it.

Horlicks? Nope. By his actions.. not his words.. you know the truth.. and the truth is Gordon is doing his best to help the poor ... become poorer.
He loves the poor. And he's doing his best to increase their numbers. 

Just wait for the next Poverty report to come out. It's delayed till after the May elections. Poverty to be halved by 2010? No chance.

Like withdrawing troops from Iraq, the death of spin, 3 million new homes in 10 years (so house sales have promptly halved ) etc.. Gordon makes promises he has no intention of keeping 'cos he cannot.

Like many other promises he has made, he'll break it.. 



 

Re: 10p Scandal parked for now - (#32)

It isn't that easy, changing the tax rates like that would be incredibly difficult. It would mean editing and proofing every single HMRC guide, sending them out to every employer. There is also the possibility of an employer not using the new tax code and the legal ramifications if an employer pays too much.too little tax.

And yes, he does that is why we have brought hundreds of thousands of children out of child poverty and also why we have record low unemployment.

Re: 10p Scandal parked for now - (#33)

The government has done something for the poor with children and for pensioners.
But, "record low unemployment"? Unemployment now stands at 1.61 million - many times the level of the 1950s and 1960s. There was an almighty fuss when it first hit one million.
I think you mean record employment?

Re: 10p Scandal parked for now - (#34)

"There is also the possibility of an employer not using the new tax code and the legal ramifications if an employer pays too much.too little tax."

That is a problem faced every day evetryone is paid. It is called a "reason why not to".

I ran payroll for a large company for a while. Canging Tax Codes is not that difficult.

It certainly is easier and less stressful for the poor employee than waiting 6 months and losing money from their wages.. and having to fill in tax credit claim forms.

But hey Gordon does not want independent people .. he WANTS people to be poor and state dependent. Why else would he do this?

Re: 10p Scandal parked for now - (#36)

If you want to talk about being dependent on state handouts, take a look at the Tories policies wrecked working class communities leaving vast swathes of people on state handouts.

The way to deliver a targeted package to help out a small group of tax payers is not to implement a policy that changes the system for all 30 million taxpayers in the country.

As fot tax credits, what exactly is the problem with a system that recognises that raising children on a low wage is harder than just getting by on a low wage?

Re: 10p Scandal parked for now - (#37)

"The way to deliver a targeted package to help out a small group of tax payers is not to implement a policy that changes the system for all 30 million taxpayers in the country. "

Rubbish
Gordon HAS changed the system for everyone. He abolished 10% tax and reduced 22% to 20%.
Please keep up.. :-)

The way to help the working poor is:
not to tax them at all.
The way to help the unemployed is specific benefits.

Of course this is too simple for Gordon so he makes it so complex that neother Yvette of teh Treasury can teel anyone how they are going to sort out the mess that they denied existed but which they created.

Mr Stalin and Mr Bean seem intermingled .

Re: 10p Scandal parked for now - (#38)

And if you think I'm biased and wrong, read what the FT says. It sounds familiar...
http://blogs.ft.com/westminster/2008/04/will-the-10p-losers-be-waiting-for-compensation-cheques-unti l-october-2009/

Re: 10p Scandal parked for now - (#39)

And before you ask, i do not work for the FT>

Re: 10p Scandal parked for now - (#42)

"As fot tax credits, what exactly is the problem with a system that recognises that raising children on a low wage is harder than just getting by on a low wage?"

Well, we already have working tax credit. The real question is why it's harder to not have kids and be 25 than it is to not have kids and be 24.

Re: 10p Scandal parked for now - (#43)

Unfortunatley a terminal illness means we are no longer a Hard Working Family so £7 a week worse off looks like out lot despite the Chancellor's letter.

It's not a Left-Right issue. It's an issue of basic human decency being chucked out the window.

Re: 10p Scandal parked for now - (#46)

Really sorry to hear this. And I'm afraid you're quite right. £7 a week may not seem a lot to Gordon and his Special Advisers on their £100k+ salaries and gold-plated pensions, but to people struggling to make ends meet it can be vital.  Waiting 6 months or so for Yvette to get her act together and hoping for a handout from the Treasury (possibly after filling in a lenghthy form) just isn't right.  Will they pay interest to people who have had to go into debt to tide them over until then?  Of course not.

The sad truth is that Gordon thought headlines of "cutting basic rate tax" would help him win the next election and didn't care that he was clobbering 5M low paid people in the process. He denied it was a problem until Frank Field forced him to, and he still won't admit he made a mistake. And the compensation is grudging and unclear: it could have been done much better with tax theshold adjustments.

As I said earlier, Labour should stop worrying about winning the next election and focus on doing the right thing.  The continued future of Labour as a serious political force is at stake.

Re: 10p Scandal parked for now - (#48)