Why the 10% starting rate had to go

People need to look at the tax system in the round before criticising individual aspects of it. What those who decry the removal of the 10% starting rate conveniently forget is that - due to the tax credit system - it is the wealthy, not the poor, who will lose most from it.


The question of the optimal taxation policy has vexed economists for many a decade. However, one thing is quite clear from the academic literature: varying marginal rates of taxation with income is a rather blunt instrument when it comes to addressing the issue of supporting those on low incomes.

In fact, a far better system is to ensure people face the same marginal rate of taxation. The reason being is that in a system where lump sum transfers already occur (in the UK this is through the tax credit system), then the group who gains most from lower marginal tax rates are those who do not even need lump sum benefits - the realtively wealthy.

Where lump sum transfers compensate those on lower incomes for increases in the starting band, they do not actually stand to lose out. For those who do not receive tax credits, they - other things being equal - pay double the rate of taxation on that part of their income than they otherwise would have.

A lot of the current arguments around the 10p starting rate are based on a confused understanding of how the tax system works.

Gordon Brown, and everyone in the Labour party, should be promoting to the electorate the progressive changes to the tax system which have occurred over the last decade.

Particularly because the Conservatives would undo all of them.

The Conservatives' line of giving back the 10p starting rate (which they can't afford) and dismantling the tax credit system (which they can) is actually a far more pernicious reality in which the worst off stand to lose the most.

Tax changes over the last decade have targeted resources where they are most needed; redistributing from those who can afford to pay, and providing for those who can't. The 10p tax change is no different when set in the wider tax policy context.

The sad truth of those who argue vehemently against the lastest tax change is that they have not properly thought through the implications for those on whose behalf they claim to be fighting.

And not least because it makes a less sympathetic Conservative government far more of a reality.

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Re: Why the 10% starting rate had to go (#1)

A complicated answer.

Try explaining that to the public.

I tried to follow it and understood it on the second reading.

Not a snowball's hope in hell of getting it across. the case is lost when people see the reduction in takehome pay.

"Oh but if you fill in a form and claim..." is hardly going to endear the system to anyone.

Lets see : who introduced the 10p rate? And who is taking it away..?

And you then go on about the Conservatives.."undoing " things.

"The sad truth of those who argue vehemently against the latest tax change is that they have not properly thought through the implications for those on whose behalf they claim to be fighting."
 
Nope.. wrong ..it should read:

The sad truth of those who argue vehementl yFOR the latest tax change is that they have not properly thought through the implications for those on whose behalf they claim to be fighting.

Re: Why the 10% starting rate had to go (#2)

Why are you trying to defend the indefensible?

They thought that everyone who earned under £18,000 a year who loses out with the loss of the 10p tax band, would benefit from tax credits. But tax credits only apply if you're receiving the state pension, if you have a disability or if you have kids. What's more, a lot of those who have applied for the Working Tax Credit have had their applications screwed up, been overpaid, and had the money clawed back. Hardly an incentive to apply for more cash.

Those who don't have children under 18, including young people, students, and older people who have taken early retirement, are losing out to the tune of £200 a year.

That may not sound a lot to you, but when you also work out that the petrol, gas & electricity, food and council tax have all gone up steeply in the last year, £200 a year is a lot of money.

On top of that, why are we penalising the very poorest, who probably need that money more than anyone, when we're benefiting people who earn up to £35,000?

They made a serious mistake. Now they need to own up to it, apologise and promise to make it better, retrospectively at the Pre-Budget Report in the autumn. It will be difficult and they'll need to put their best brains on it so that it doesn't cost the Treasury any money, but maybe they could combine it with a tax increase on the very rich. Now, that would be a Labour thing to do.

Re: Why the 10% starting rate had to go (#6)

You don't have to have children to get Working Tax Credits if your pay is very low.

A 25 years old single person earning £215/week for >30 hours per week would get £678.60/year (£13/week) WTC in 2008/9 by my calculation. This incentive is intended to help enourage single people into full-time work, even if the wages are very low.

Also worth pointing out that the Child Tax Credit has been increased well above the rate of inflation, to try to impact child poverty. The Per-child element has been increased by 13%, and the deduction income threshold has been increased by 23%. So any general claim that the latest changes is hitting the worst off is well off the mark - it is more a redirection.

Re: Why the 10% starting rate had to go (#3)

My general point - and perhaps it didn't come across all that well - is that if you decide that those on low incomes need additional support through the tax system, then why give EVERYBODY a tax cut?

The 10% starting level was a bad idea to begin with. Reintroducing it won't target help towards the most needed. Were it to be introduced, then the man who earns £50k or £100k a year will benefit by the same amount as the man who earns just £10k.

Why is that progressive?

Making the tax credit system more robust, and extending it to help more people who are on low incomes targets tax resources.

It means that those on low incomes get the support they need. And that the wealthy aren't given unneccesary tax cuts.

Marginal taxation is a blunt instrument to combat low incomes, because the people who benefit most - the rich - are those who can most afford to pay.

Re: Why the 10% starting rate had to go (#4)

The issue with this is that people without any dependants on abismally low wages are disadvantaged. How can this be acceptable?

Do you not understand that the issue here is with people who aren't eligible for tax credits?!?

I support cutting the 22p rate to 20p, but the government has just bowed down to pressure from the rich to make up the shortfall by raising tax on the poor (and then claiming that tax credits will help when in some cases they don't). They should have raised the top rate of income tax. 

Re: Why the 10% starting rate had to go (#5)

All this stuff oftax credits is Gordon's mumbo jumbo for making people reliant on the state.  he may not mean to dao it but he is doing it.
As for all the above about not gising the better off a tax cut, it is clear to anyone who thinks about it for about 5 minutes that you could easily offset the 10% tax band by changing allowances in the upper bands.. ie. lowering the rate at which the top rate of tax starts.

None of the above is rocket science.

So why has Darling not done it?
Well for several reasons:
1. He's stoopid.
2. Gordon loves HIS  baby Tax Credits

and err...don't know.

Lets face it . Any normal thinking human with an ounce of common sense would not do what Gordon has done. But because he has zero epathy with anyone, he's tried to be overclever.. and rub the Conservatives' noses in it.

The obvious is too simple.

I feel sorry for all the people whose lives he is srewing up. My younger son is single and will be affected. His view is quite simple. In repeatable language he thinks Gordon Borwn and Mr Darling are idiots. What he actually said is more accurate but unrepeatable.


Re: Why the 10% starting rate had to go (#7)

All he is saying is the rich will win the poor will lose be happy with it.

Re: Why the 10% starting rate had to go (#8)

Yes of course treborc.

That's why the Child Tax Credit has been increased well above the rate of inflation, to try to impact child poverty. The per-child element has been increased by 13%, and the deduction income threshold has been increased by 23%.

That's why 65+ pensioners have had their tax threshold increased 19.6%, and the Winter Fuel Payment for 60+ has gone up well above inflation.

That's why WTC have been incresed so 25 years old single person earning £215/week for >30 hours per week would get £678.60/year (£13/week) WTC in 2008/9, to help enourage single people into full-time work, even if the wages are very low.

That's why the rich (£40k+) are paying about £419/year more N.I.  The N.I. upper earnings limit has gone up 15% from £34,840 to £40,040/year, so that band pays 11% N.I. A 4% inflation increase would have taken it to £36,233, so above that they are being hit with an above inflation £419/year N.I. increase. (The main reason for this was to align N.I. and the 40% tax bands to get rid of an anomoly where "tax" could drop after the N.I. UEL.) To be fair, this is a bit less than the £720 they win from the 22% to 20% tax drop, but they win less than the middle ~£20k-£36k bracket, so is somewhat progressive.

It's a mixed picture. Winners and losers, as in many tax system changes. Children in hard-up families and 65+ pensioners look the biggest winners - that is soooo terrible, and proves Gordon Brown has a heart of stone, does it not?

Re: Why the 10% starting rate had to go (#9)

I do not bother with statistics they are used by many including the government, we now have the lowest unemployment since 1970's, yet a  bit on the ONS state we have 10 million people who are economically inactive, yes I know it includes carers and single mothers and everyone else including the kitchen sink, but in the end remove everyone and we still have near 3 million people who are of working age who have signed on looking for work but cannot for one reason or another have benefits, Thatcher changed the rules of counting unemployment because we had to many, but if you return it to the way it use to be, we would now have 4.5 million people seeking work or unemployed.

The fact is wages have not gone up this year it's being held back which will put people into poverty again, Labour have now worked out wage increases which will see nurses pay go down, and the Police, this is why we have so many threats of strikes coming up.

Why are tax credits and working credits even paid, why not put all this money onto the Min wage, because then you cannot remove it when you feel like.

The fact is your idea of poverty is not mine, and if you think pensioners are now living in the lap of wealth your a new Labour idiot, my gas has doubled this year making everything you have just said worthless.

We need a min wage which should be worth £6.75 now, we need less benefits because they are murder to claim, and we need to see the rich pay more tax and not less.

Re: Why the 10% starting rate had to go (#10)

I'd like to see NMW go up as well, which would also save spending on tax credits.

But I think that has to be a pan-EU effort; we already have the third highest NMW in the EU (see also official stats in PDF or less detailed HTML variant). Our NMW being way higher encourages excessive EU immigration.

One advantage of the recent fall in the pound is that our NMW can go up more without becoming the highest in the EU.

Insufficient unskilled jobs is a problem we will increasingly have to face, as automation and robotic factories progress. I'd like it if society developed a desire for a 4 day week (more jobs) and less-consumerist living, but it is hard to see that developing in the current neoliberal / New Labour climate.