10p Tax: Minister's resignation threat

alexhilton Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:44:25 AM GMT Print-friendly version Facebook

Sheffield Hillsborough MP Angela Smith has threatened to resign as a junior Treasury Minister over the abolition of the 10p tax band.

According to this article, she has received assurances from the government and will not be resigning.






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10p Tax: Minister's resignation threat | 26 comments (26 topical)

Re: 10p Tax: Minister's resignation threat (#1)

by Just Labour on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:57:05 AM GMT

Err. Wrong Angela Smith.

Your picture is of Angela Smith MP for Basildon who is PPS to Gordon Brown and not of Angela Smith MP for Sheffield Hilsborough, PPS to Yvette Cooper and reportedly resigning over the abolition of the 10% tax rate.

Bit poor guys. Still, Torygraph got it wrong too! http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=&xml=/news/2008/04/17/nresign11 7.xml


Re: 10p Tax: Minister's resignation threat (#3)

by pregethwr on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:13:15 AM GMT

Indeed. At this point this newspost is libellous.


[ Parent ]

Re: 10p Tax: Minister's resignation threat (#7)

by alexhilton on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:27:37 PM GMT

Of course - very sorry. I was in a hurry and took thew telegraph's lead on this.

I should have remembered that Basildon Angela is Gordon's PPS


[ Parent ]

Re: 10p Tax: Minister's resignation threat (#18)

by swatantra on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 09:56:14 AM GMT

You had us worried in Basildon!


[ Parent ]

Re: 10p Tax: Minister's resignation threat (#2)

by treborc on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:08:26 AM GMT

I wonder what assurances she had, mess me about and you will be deselected.


Re: 10p Tax: Minister's resignation threat (#4)

by davidfloyd on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:40:33 AM GMT

Well, a suitable end to a principled response to a measure that was government policy before she took her role in the first place. Was she not listening during Brown's budget speech last year?

Maybe other ministers are going to demonstrate a similar delayed reaction to disastrous policies. It's not too late for a few of them to quit over the invasion of Iraq. And what about Denis Healey's decision to go to the IMF?

 



Re: 10p Tax: Minister's resignation threat (#5)

by lastword on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:47:54 AM GMT

Just which Angela Smith is it?!


[ Parent ]

Re: 10p Tax: Minister's resignation threat (#6)

by Laski on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:48:39 AM GMT

I'm still to hear a valid argument as to why a 10p band for the first 2.2k is the best way to help low-earners. I bet she couldn't give me one.

A tax-cut for the entire population is not how you help low waged people.


Re: 10p Tax: Minister's resignation threat (#24)

by rwendland on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:08:07 PM GMT

The best rationale I've heard (on TV - forget who) for this change was that the introduction of the 10% band was an early crude quick help measure for low-earners soon after Labour came into power, to be used while a better more targetted system was implemented (NMW & Tax Credits). Now we have the better system of help working, it's time to undo the crude temp fix and go back to a simpler tax system which avoids some technical problems, and add more targetted help via Tax Credits. The crude temp fix benefitted some who didn't really need it (or needed it less), so unwinding that will obviously create some complaints we have to live with.

So I think there probably are valid technocratic reasons for the change, but politically it is has been terribly handled.

Politically, I think we should have unwound it much slower through fiscal drag so people would not notice a big change. eg over the years not increasing the 10% band in line with inflation as Tax Credits increased.


[ Parent ]

Re: Compensate don't restore - 10p tax: Vote here (#8)

by Peter Kenyon on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:29:32 PM GMT

Dear All

We seem to be agreed there is no case for restoring the 10p tax band, especially with the cut to 20p from 22 of the standard rate.

But there is a Labour case for compensating 5.3 million working and retired people on low incomes.

Please cast your vote here:

http://www.labourhome.org/poll/1207677635_YFNgdYaR

So far 94% agree.


Re: Compensate don't restore - 10p tax: Vote here (#9)

by alexhilton on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:34:28 PM GMT

Peter, I don't agree that there is no case for restoring a 10p band. Whether it's 8p or 12p or something else isn't the point, it's the principle of an introductory rate of tax that makes it progressive.


[ Parent ]

Re: Compensate don't restore - 10p tax: Vote here (#10)

by lastword on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:30:52 PM GMT

Absolutely and they need to get on with introducing 50% at the top too.


[ Parent ]

Re: Compensate don't restore - 10p tax: Vote here (#11)

by Laski on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:41:02 PM GMT

What is the argument for a miniscule 2.2k band followed by a whopping 29k band?

If people want to help the poor than the 10p band is just bad maths.

People seem obsessed with the doubling of the 10p rate, but I never hear people mention the lowering of where the top band kicks in, and the boost in personal allowance. 


[ Parent ]

Re: Compensate don't restore - 10p tax: Vote here (#12)

by Laski on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:41:07 PM GMT

I would love to see the maths for this supposed 5.3 million? Love to ...

Maths that include tax credit changes and personal allowance changes, and the 22p cut. I'm overwhelmingly sceptical of this total. I think it's probably one dimensional.


[ Parent ]

Re: Compensate don't restore - 10p tax: Vote here (#23)

by rwendland on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 05:57:47 PM GMT

A breakdown of who the 5.3 million are can be found in para 40 of here. In summary:

  • 2.2 million would be single working people with no children who are not getting the working tax credit. They may not be getting the working tax credit, most of them, because they earn more than £12,500 but less than £18,000.
  • 1.2 million losers who will be two earner couples with no children. They may not qualify for the working tax credit or they may fail to take it up.
  • 0.4 million losing households who are one earner couples without children, most of them because they will be in a range of about £17,000 to £18,500
  • 0.7 million two earner couples with [one?] children who lose again twice from the income tax and national insurance changes but maybe only gain once from child tax credit/working tax credit.
  • 0.3 million losers who would be tax paying women between the ages of 60 and 64 who do not get tax credits and are too young to be compensated by the rise in the pensioner tax allowance [but do get extra  heating allowance]
  • 0.5 million non-workers who pay more tax on their taxable benefit or pensions than they gain. Those might be early retirees or incapacity benefit claimants.


[ Parent ]

Re: Compensate don't restore - 10p tax: Vote here (#25)

by Laski on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 10:41:21 AM GMT

Is this a joke? 

What a disgrace that list is. Pseudo-mathematical hack work at its worst.

We're making a massive fuss over people that earn 12.5k-18k a year who have lost a tenner? Oh behave.

We're quoting numbers of people that choose not to take tax credit? Oh behave.

0.4 million one-earner couples with no children? Can someone explain this concept please. One earner couple with no children that earn over 17k? What is the non-earner doing? Oh behave. 

0.7 million two-earner couples with a kid who do actually gain from credits, but there are no numbers listed as to how much the losses and gains are. This claim has to be rejected without further proof. 

0.3 million 60-64 women who we admit get extra finance but we don't say how much. Oh behave.

blah blah blah FIVE MILLION blah blah blah. Scaremongering and misrepresentation at its worst. People are actually falling for these lies. It's a tragedy.


[ Parent ]

Re: Compensate don't restore - 10p tax: Vote here (#13)

by serenitynow on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 02:14:30 PM GMT

Not sure that there is any consensus that a progressive taxation system is off the agenda.

When the State has to compensate the very same people it undermined in the first place it is just compounding one bad policy decision with another.

Any compensation measures are easily removed by future governments becasue they are targetted and not universal, whereas universal changes to the taxation system by introducing progressive bands is always harder for future administrations to undo.

It is not credible to argue that this rich western nation cannot afford to alleviate poverty through a progressive taxation system, if we can fund two wars, nuclear refurbushment and the Olympics then we can surely find the £7bn to fix the taxation system.


[ Parent ]

Re: Compensate don't restore - 10p tax: Vote here (#14)

by Laski on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:24:22 PM GMT

It's the perfect time to slap down a higher band and hike up the personal allowance. The political right could not legitimetly come out strongly against it after their pseudo-fuss over the 10p rate doubling hurting the poor. This government have done more for the poor than Robin Hood, and his merry men.


[ Parent ]

Re: Compensate don't restore - 10p tax: Vote here (#15)

by serenitynow on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:44:52 PM GMT

I agree that this government has done many things to help those living and/or working in poverty but it doesn't prevent constructive criticism of bad policy decisions.

I also agree the time is ripe for some decisive action, but I would argue that a personal allowance is not necessarily the best option.

Welfare/taxation systems incorporating personal allowances are very difficult to manage and require very stringent targetting and monitoring, in prcatice they are very resource intensive, something that may be beyond the DWP with all the job cuts being applied.

They also reinforce a sense of personal poverty - I am deprived that is why I receive an allowance which, over time, can (though not always) be very dispiriting.

That is why a progressive taxation system starting low to avoid the welfare trap and shifting incrementally up to a top rate of 50% (for earners over £250K for arguments sake) avoids  over-personalising poverty but still provides incentives for workers to remain off benefits - a crucial element of any system.

As to the political right not being able to remove the the personal allowances in the future; would anyone have believed you five years ago if you said that one day a Labour government would increase the tax burden for some (though granted not all) very low income earners at the expense of other more well paid workers?

Politics is after all the art of the possible.


[ Parent ]

Re: Compensate don't restore - 10p tax: Vote here (#16)

by grimupnorth on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 05:39:36 PM GMT

What  absolute  nonsense. The 1op  tax  issue is causing  mayhem  on the doorstep, is grossly  unfair  and frankly symbolises how  out  of touch  this Govt is with the lives  of  working-class  people.We certainly  DON'T  agree


[ Parent ]

Re: Compensate don't restore - 10p tax: Vote here (#22)

by otware on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 06:08:04 PM GMT

This is probably the most effective new policy in New Labour's goal of extending the gap between rich and poor - one of the few things they've been able to do well, in fact.


[ Parent ]

Re: Compensate don't restore - 10p tax: Vote here (#20)

by treborc on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 01:15:54 PM GMT

Bloody compensation again, when do you you stop compensation, once you win an election, and 93% is not much when you think only 42 people voted.

We need that band brought back in, or we need people removed from tax altogether. not compensation.


[ Parent ]

Re: 10p Tax: Minister's resignation threat (#17)

by madasafish on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:47:58 PM GMT

Tax the poor.. new Labour policy.

Pity no Ministers have the courage to resign.. they are a disgrace to their party.

As for Gordon Brown and Darling, tehir incompetence always amazes me: but then Gordon is a jonah.

Pity the party elected him... ooops.. appointed him. I realise Labour don't do elections and democracy any more than they do social justice.


Re: 10p Tax: Minister's resignation threat (#19)

by Louise Flint on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 10:46:49 AM GMT

We should be emphatically clear that this is not a New Labour policy but a Brown Labour policy.

 

New Labour introduced the 10% rate, Gordon took it away. He is to blame - he is not only put on this earth to remind us how good Tony Blair was but it seems he was put on it to undo the good things he did do.

 

Louise, Doncaster. 


Re: 10p Tax: Minister's resignation threat (#26)

by NorthernMonkey on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 10:58:30 PM GMT

"We should be emphatically clear that this is not a New Labour policy but a Brown Labour policy."

That's exactly right.

I get annoyed by people blaming Blair for this. Brown chose to do it and no New Labour supporter would willingly support it. I know I don't.


[ Parent ]

Re: 10p Tax: Minister's resignation threat (#21)

by treborc on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 02:30:37 PM GMT

What a silly think to say Brown is more New Labour then anyone I know.


10p Tax: Minister's resignation threat | 26 comments (26 topical)