Getting out of the Brown stuff

What will it take to restore the Party's reputation and popularity?

I flatter myself that I’m a pretty accepting and compromising person when it comes to party politics and sticking up for this Government. Perhaps I’m a little naïve, but I think that the electorate are more accepting than they’re given credit for.

As a Party, we’ve had some defending to do since last year – another donation scandal, HMRC data loss followed by several other Government losses, the handling of Northern Rock nationalisation, CGT and non-dom tax announcements and climb downs, dwindling poll figures (even though they’re pointless anyway), Chinese Olympic thugs in Downing St., talk of plotting etc etc blah blah blah

Now it’s enough to make the case on doorsteps or canvassing before an election to make the best possible case in each argument: “Nobody was prosecuted.” “The data loss was awful but not unheard of. Large private companies lose data too, so to be fair, we ought to consider what the Chancellor did once he found out. He acted decisively and appropriately.” “The opposition had no option on Northern Rock and therefore no credibility to attack from sidelines.” “CGT changes show a co-operative government” etc etc.

Not long before one sounds like a blinkered, lacky apologist but there are counter arguments to be made in the Government’s and the Prime Minister’s defence. However, do you know what sticks in my craw about this guy? You know what the really vexing thing is? He rarely, if ever, shows up to face the music. He’ll have us do it on doorsteps where people are less collegiate than a lobby journalist but won’t do it himself.

He doesn’t answer questions. He didn’t invent the practice but certainly perpetuates it. Can you imagine canvassing someone by asserting “I think Gordon has a vision for Britain” and then have no cue from Gordon expanding on that ‘vision’? How disrespectful is it for a Labour activist to dismissively answer a question from a voter with “I think the important thing is…” when they mention something awkward? Yet this is the PR practice of a craven leader when he actually shows up.

I remember in the run up to the Iraq war, Tony Blair went into a hostile studio audience and faced slow clapping, almost farcically tough questions and an angry Sir Trevor MacDonald. Even if you disagree with a policy, you’re somewhat assured when the main protagonist of the policy is willing to go into enemy territory to defend it.

Not so with Gordon. I look at the conference Q&A where barely a question from his own Party members went satisfactorily answered. The video link is out there somewhere. Waffle and platitudes around the topics raised.

Whenever there was a crisis for Blair – Gordon was nowhere to be found and a statement came a few days after the fact. We’ve now stumbled from issue, to crisis, to non-issue for almost a year and this guy never makes his argument convincingly.

To put it frankly – someone who has hidden away from difficult conversations with the public and the press has no real right to associate himself with courage.

Someone who contrived relentlessly and remorselessly to oust the most successful leader this party has ever had is in ill a position to expect loyalty.

Someone with the least credible ability to argue a case or policy has no right to call himself leader.

Yet – I still have hope for Gordon. If he were only to begin answering questions comprehensively, spoke frankly and admitted where he made mistakes. He’s restore confidence or, at the very least, belief in his ability.

If he only dropped that utterly fake and patronising grin on those awful Youtube videos and reverted to the wonkish, bookish but informed and reliable man we understand him to be – he’d make serious progress.

If only he could get these new PR people to actually do their job properly by doing their job less visibly – he could speak credibly on honesty and spin.   

A credible, straight talking leader could flatly call out journos on the hypocrisy of their recent “lack of leadership” articles when they berated Blair for “sofa decision making”.

An honest, trustworthy leader could give people a straight appraisal of the economic situation so they get an assurance about where they stand rather than believing every word sounds like spin.

Am I dreaming colleagues? What will it take for Gordon to turn it around?



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Re: Geting out of the Brown stuff (#1)

Forget it.  Roll on D Miliband I say.

Re: Geting out of the Brown stuff (#7)

I don't really think a leadership contest before the next general election is a good thing - we should stick by Brown good or bad now until 2010 and then decide.

But when the time does come, I'm inclined to agree with you that David Miliband would be the best choice. He seems likeable and intelligent and whilst Cabinet ministers seem to be under attack from journalists on all sides, I've yet to hear much criticism of him despite his prominent job. I note quite a few commentators seem to be pushing him forward now.

See the Independent's John Rentoul: David Miliband, this is your Country Calling



Re: Geting out of the Brown stuff (#2)

It will all depend on how well Gordon protects the average voter from the likely forthcoming economic downturn. I think many other factors will fall into insignificance compared to that. If we have less tough times than the US and rest of EU, the voters may be thankful.

A precis of what the IMF Chief Economist said on C4 News a few days ago: 25% chance of global slowdown, US in mild recession - recovery not expected for 2 years, but emerging states keeping global economy spinning, largest spending shock since the 30s, we need to use public spending in creative ways. 5% chance of a major international bank failing, with huge fallout.

It's the economy, stupid.  

Re: Geting out of the Brown stuff (#3)

Gordon  is  a  charisma  free zone  but  could  turn it roind  by changing  policy direction. As he  is  not  going tothen  he won't.

Re: Geting out of the Brown stuff (#4)

The assumption that charisma is necessary is part of the problem. No need for charisma. People would be happy with a bore if he was an effective, believable and credible bore.

Re: Geting out of the Brown stuff (#6)

Gordons not for turning, so where does that leave us?

Re: Geting out of the Brown stuff (#13)

He did change policy direction, he turned back to Blair.  So much for change!  Heck!

Re: Geting out of the Brown stuff (#5)

James Carville said on this week's 'Meet the Press' that the most important lesson that he learnt from Bill Clinton was: "If we focus on us it hurts us, if we focus on them it helps us."

Worth bearing in mind? 

Re: Geting out of the Brown stuff (#18)

The Labour Party is the Labour Party - not the anti-Tory Party i.e. we don't exist simply to keep Tories from office.

You make a valid point but these are serious times for Labour. The most important thing for Gordon is to actually lead - not triangulate, not fluff his lines, not bluster and not try to be something he's not.

By the by - perhaps if Bill Clinton focussed on himself from time to time he'd be undisputedly remembered as the greatest modern president rather than having his proud reputation indelibly tarnished.

Re: Geting out of the Brown stuff (#8)

I have a feeling these posts will become part of the news story themselves. But anyway....anyone who convinced themselves that charisma, communication and media skills were unimportant in the post-Tony era was a fool. If that was the case, why did the public switch their allegiance so quickly to the Tories because a chinless Etonian was good at offering a counterintuitive narrative of change straight of out the Book of Blair?  People say they are sick of spin, but they want clear messages from a confident leader.

Re: Geting out of the Brown stuff (#15)

SW - surely you don't believe that it was Cameron's charisma, communication or media skills that put Labour in its current position?

The series of Labour mistakes alongside our Leader's seeming inability to get on top of them is the problem.

People say they are sick of spin, but they want clear messages from a confident leader.

I agree - it's what I'm asking for. I'd like to see clear, confident communication of competent administration because let's remember - we're the governing party for the next two years. 

I'm not looking to 'add to the news story' but, to me, there's a glaring gap between what we assumed we'd get with Brown (including what a load of people screeched for as they clamoured to be rid of Blair) was the substantive, honest executive - the big clunking fist - and what we have.

We have the worst of both worlds - a guy light on substance and light on fluff. We don't need to be rid of him - just his current cowardly methods that clearly aren't working.

And another thing - let the Tories, the press or whoever see us question our leader. We're entitled and should expect of ourselves fair, sober, searching criticism of the leadership. That happens in a democratic organisation.

Re: Geting out of the Brown stuff (#26)

SW - surely you don't believe that it was Cameron's charisma, communication or media skills that put Labour in its current position?

I believe it is, to an extent. The British people like young, charismatic leaders and in this age of celebrity, a little glamour doesn't do any harm. People may not admit to this, but it's the truth.

If David Davis won the Tory leadership contest, Labour would still be performing poorly but the Tories wouldn't be doing anywhere near as well.

Re: Geting out of the Brown stuff (#33)

Ok - to an extent. The point about a David Davis leadership I agree with.

These polls are, in my view, referendums on the last few weeks' press coverage. It's not even so much that Cameron has been getting good coverage - Brown and the economy have been getting bad publicity. 

The election that never was, was Brown's doing. The data loss was government/civil service failure. The dip in economy associated with Government not Cameron's answer which is non-existent. The 10p rate was Brown's idea and the subsequent MP and Minister's briefing against him is Labour-on-Labour violence.

These are our problems and I don't think they were brought about by David Cameron.

I do accept however that people feel more able to turn to Tories now that he appears to have detoxified the Conservative brand.

The point is - and I guess the point of the post is that these problems are Gordon's to fix (not least because there isn't a hope he'll be replaced before the next general election). 

As that awful, old adage goes - Oppositions don't win elections - Governments lose them.

Re: Geting out of the Brown stuff (#9)

To add to my previous point, does anyone who saw George Osborne's stuttering, incoherent, utterly unconvincing performance on Channel 4 news tonight really think that the Tories are anything other than vulnerable if we start training our fire on them rather than on ourselves?

There is going to be no leadership change. Let's get on with the job in hand and not hand the opposition an easy win. Actually, let's not hand the opposition a win at all.

Re: Geting out of the Brown stuff (#10)

Osborne was well skewered by Jon Snow - he wouldn't say "We'd have spent less" or "taxed more" and hadn't prepared a way out from forceful questioning between those two. He did look an amateur under tough questioning.

I agree it's time to pull together. Besides, I can't see why serious contenders would want the leadership right now, facing a lengthy economic slowdown running up to the next election.

Re: Geting out of the Brown stuff (#11)

'Someone who contrived relentlessly and remorselessly to oust the most successful leader this party has ever had is in ill a position to expect loyalty.'

Says it all really. He'll reap what he sowed

Re: Geting out of the Brown stuff (#14)

"I agree it's time to pull together."

Excuse me, no, I don't want us to lose the next election!!

Re: Geting out of the Brown stuff (#17)

The Tories are vulnerable but unless our house is in order we can't credibly expose them.

The most hateful thing about politics and politiking is this bease argument: "Nevermind us - they are worse". It makes people think that they're sick of the whole foul jamboree and voter turnout falls further.

I don't expect a change of leader but would love to see a change in the leader. It is precisely because I don't want to hand the opposition a win that I bring it up - The PM hands them a victory everytime he opens his mouth with a tired slogan, a cheap Youtube video and a policy announcement nakedly designed for a newspaper editor.

Re: Geting out of the Brown stuff (#12)

Brown's pretty much destroyed the Labour party by ending the trade union link by stealth at last year's conference. He's worse than Ramsay McDonald.

Re: Getting out of the Brown stuff (#16)

Personally I was never that keen on Brown - I would have preferred to see a contest when Tony Blair left. As a southener I felt that Brown would struggle to appeal to the middle class voters we need to keep us in power.  But he seemed to have so much support in the PLP that I thought maybe he should be given the benefit of the doubt - if all these MPs who knew him much better than us ordinary members were so convinced of his abilities he must really have something more to him than I could see. And, for a few weeks last Summer, I thought he had. But then came the non-election. Most political disasters cannot be laid at the door of a single individual - they arise from failings of parties and governments in general (eg the winter of discontent or black Wednedsay) - but the non-election was entirely 100% Brown's fault - a totally avoidable car crash.

Even after that I thought he deserved another chance but for me the absurd late signing of the Lisbon Treaty clinched it - you just cannot behave like that as PM - it was humiliating for Brown personally, for the Party and the UK. 

The Party has to face the fact that this man cannot win us an election. Without him we may have a chance. With him we are toast.   

Re: Getting out of the Brown stuff (#19)

Like you, Nickc, I was never keen on Brown.  I live in the south in an area where we depend on middle class votes.
I just couldn't understand how we got ourselves into the situation where the Premiership of the country was up for grabs and we were forced into having just a single candidate - what a farce - makes it look like a former Soviet Union election.
When you think of the calibre of candidates the last time this happened (Callaghan, Healey, Foot etc) - where were their equivalents last year?
How on earth did we let this happen?

Re: Getting out of the Brown stuff (#20)

We (the activists) didn't, the PLP did.  Personally I dn't it's many MPs' fault.  Many of them was told in no unertain terms what would happen to their careers if they didn't support Brown.  Many wanted to nominate McDonnell just to ensure a bit of a contest but felt the hand of the whips office upon their shoulders...

Re: Getting out of the Brown stuff (#21)

I am not at all surprised by GB's lack of leadership skills.  All I have heard from him over many years is a defensive stance to every policy area.  He has always come over to me as having an aggressive and bullying nature, someone who runs away when the going gets tough, someone who cannot make difficult decisions and a man who has always held grudges.  We had some indication about his inability to lead and mutterings from some about the future being a disaster with GB at the helm.  He refused to speak to Jonathan Powell - what did he do to him other than work for the PM.  He lacks good manners and leadership when he cannot maintain cordial relations with those who do not share his view but who aim to serve the wider party.  (Peter Mendelson, Alan Milburn, John Reid etc etc).  I am ashamed that he got the top job without a contest.  He has certainly bamboozled many with his apparent qualities - they have not been apparent to me.  Anyone who aspires to be leader should have changed jobs to ensure a breadth of experience.  Not Gordon - the Treasury job meant he could control other Ministers as he held the purse strings.  Sums him up for me.

Like some others on this board, I will never forgive Gordon Brown nor his cronies, Ball, Nick Brown et al for the disloyalty and serious backstabbing against the former PM.  I would suggest that all read Blair Unbound - this does give a clear indication of the naked ambition of Gordon Brown - his craving for the leadership and the awful bully that he is.

Contrary to others views, I do see charisma and personality being important particularly to voters who are not tied to any political party.  As others have stated, Gordon Brown does not appeal to middle England - he lacks style and seems very dull.   Further, I have always been led to believe that the PM was a master strategist.  Really -at what cost?  He announced in last years budget that tax would be reduced to 20p and removed the 10p band.  He got what he wanted - the headlines in the press.  My reading suggests that the treasury assumed some 200,000 people would be affected.  We now know that it will be over 5million people (myself included).  The press reports even when dealing with concerned MPs at the PLP recently, he could only focus on how wonderful he was at being able to reduce the basic rate to 20p which was something that the Tories could not do.  What a strategy and what a leader.   I am not interested in what the Tories were unable to do - economic circumstances were different 10 years ago and it gets boring listening to Gordon Brown trying to outmanoevre the Tories rather than be a PM.  He has no understanding of how this policy will affect poorer people.  As a woman aged between 60-65 i will pay £212 a year more.  Council tax rises, energy and food means that I am much poorer and at a time in my life when I can least afford it.  Shameful policy.

So to answer the question about hope for the future.  I have no hope under Gordon Brown regardless of how many new PR men he brings in to Number 10.  If his sick video, with his ghastly makeup recently aired about malaria is a result of his new PR team he needs to change them quickly.

I am devastated at just how bad things are.  I do not blame the PM for every mishap.  However, many of the errors have been of his own making and sums up that many people have been conned about his abilities.   I do not think anything can be done now to make the party or the PM more popular.  We should just count our blessings that David Cameron is not running away with the polls.  As the economy gets more difficult this will most certainly happen.

Oh for the days of Tony Blair.  We had a leader that the country could have been proud of.  We have someone now who is an embarrassment.  His body language with the American president, his late signing of the Lisbon Treaty, getting lost at Buckingham Palace etc etc.

In despair.............

Re: Getting out of the Brown stuff (#28)

I think that sums it up nicely.

It's difficult for Brown to command loyalty when he showed such a lack of it to his predecessor.

Re: Getting out of the Brown stuff (#29)

Tony Blair? He  started this catastrophe.... because Brown  refused to  ditch New Labour, he will  finish it. It could  have been so different....

Re: Getting out of the Brown stuff (#31)

He started the catastrophe by winning three general elections? And at least he didn't abolish the 10p rate.

Re: Getting out of the Brown stuff (#34)

As much as I believe, that Blair was often in the hands of the media, I also believe, that he did have integrity. Say what you want about his foreign policy, but he did believe in liberal interventionism-he truely did, for all its flaws. On domestic policy, I think he lacked a degree of sincerity. But because he had a way of convincing people of arguments, he was not afraid to walk into a hostile crowd about the NHS or Iraq.


When Brown came in, there was a sense that Old Labour could be back. With a cautious Foreign Secretary, and a Home Secretary in control after the terrorist attacks, an anti-Iraq War minister in cabinet, a fierce Blair critic as a foreign minister, and a league of ministers in the old-school socialist form, of people like Joan Ruddock, his cabinet embodied this sense. An end to presidentialism we thought. A constitution that was long overdue. Oh how people fawned on him.


Then Cameron triangulated him. An Inheritance Tax policy that failed to address tax evasion, (or did not explain that only 6% of estates pay it), that they purported to care about with an unworkable levy on non-doms, rather than say a 50% tax rate on non-doms. They failed to explain that Stamp duty by making a £250,000 house £255,000 does not stop someone buying a house, nor that the best reform, is to make stamp duty a progressive tax. But it played on peoples' fears. It was delving into the politics of fear. Brown could have said this, and have been lauded. But he took the bait.

Then he backtracked on CGT, which could be used to reaportion funds to building homes. Then he dithered on Northern Rock. Then he dithered on agency workers. On so many other issues, where being progressive would have been accepted by the general public.

Re: Getting out of the Brown stuff (#22)

Am I the only one not drinking the David Miliband cool-aid?  The man is likeable enough, but he is straight out of the David Cameron / Nick Clegg cookie cutter.  I'd rather not have 3 party leaders that could possibly be mistaken for each other in a crowded room.

My picks would be either Yvette Cooper (who was the only Labour financial person who did a decent job selling the budget) or John Denham, for his southerness and his opposition to the Iraq war. 

Re: Getting out of the Brown stuff (#23)

D Miliband has integrity.

Re: Getting out of the Brown stuff (#27)

But has a track record of uselessness.

Re: Getting out of the Brown stuff (#30)

Like what? I don't think he's really put a foot wrong has he?

Re: Getting out of the Brown stuff (#24)

The comments on this post are sobering. Although not all say Brown should go, none of them could be described as supportive of his performance. The Party seems to have already written him off.

Re: Getting out of the Brown stuff (#25)

Personally, I think that we are doomed.  Only the scale of the task posed by the electoral system stands between the Tories and a pretty decent working majority.

We've gone full circle in that I hear too many people replying to criticisms of the government by saying, "Yes, but it would be worse under the Tories." Probably, but after 11 years in power we should be voting FOR something not against.

Re: Getting out of the Brown stuff (#32)

Brown is in need of a couple of home-runs, that's clear. That said, these ultra fluid midterm polls are really nothing to get itchy about. There is far too much reactionary scaremongering going on, and far too many of our own buying into the propaganda.

Cameron is fighting dirtier than the Torys have in a long time. He's covered in it, and I'm confident that in a run-up to an election Brown would be able to highlight the rank failings of his opponent for all to see.

 I can't subscribe to fighting like-with-like being the acceptable answer. Brown needs to come out strong and clear with his message, and get back to his roots.  He's message has lost its way a little.

Oddly, Gordan's future will take a nice upturn if Ken can come through for him; that would create an opening to have a couple of popular descisions show these polls up for the sham that they are. Any gains the Tory party have made in the last 6 monts are instantly transferrable with a short period of reality-politics.

Re: Getting out of the Brown stuff (#35)

I speak as a former Labour voter, and a member of "middle England".

Gordon Brown is a particularly unattractive personality:
1.he's a Scot (so am I) but a dour one and living in England it grates that without Scots MPs he'd struggle to have a Government.
2. he cannot admit he does anything wrong. There is a YouTube clip on which he blames the Conservatives for the sale of Britain's gold reserves at rock bottom prices. Yes. Really.
3. He is clumsy in physical action and clumsy i his speech.
4. He may have personal warmth on a one to one basis but on TV - which is all 99% of the population will ever know- he comes over as a robot.

In other words, it's difficult to like him and even more difficult to respect him.

Milliband looks and acts like a teenager: Hutton and Denham have gravitas and some common sense.. The remaining cabinet ministers are a bunch of second raters.

Ms Flint acts like Margaret Thatcher so there is one possibility.

Admit it. The Party is full of wimps who have made a huge blunder and if any think the economy is going to rescue you, think again. Two years of pain: rising food price AND taxation :are going to hit many very hard.
Well done Gordon for piling on the pain. As for the poor well no Conservative Chancellor could do what Draling has done: tax the poor more to give to the middle classes. Thanks .. but no thanks.

A cabinet full of mediocrities and yes men and women.

Re: Getting out of the Brown stuff (#38)

" I speak as a former Labour voter, and a member of "middle England".

If that's what you really are, why are you launching into an attack that reads like it was written by a Tory. More likely you're a sock puppet indulging in a little light astroturfing.

"Admit it. **blah blah blah Labour Bad blah blah blah**"

No, you are wrong.

Re: Getting out of the Brown stuff (#36)

" I speak as a former Labour voter, and a member of "middle England".

For the record, that's where I stopped reading. 

Re: Getting out of the Brown stuff (#37)

Phew! This place stinks like a Tory Blog.
Where is your loyalty, grassroots supporters?

 Now is the time to be offering Gordon your full support. Not categorizing his flaws for the whole world to see, there's an election in 2 weeks time for heaven's sake!

 Let's have more good news and cheer shall we?

 Thanks,

HHH.

 

p.s. Don't forget to vote Harriet for Leader of the Labour Party after Party Conference! 

Re: Getting out of the Brown stuff (#39)

I note the responses. That kind of response is why middle England will not vote Labour. See the Local ELections to come.

At least Tony Blair was inclusive.

Re: Getting out of the Brown stuff (#40)

I agree that one or two Tories may have posted comments above.
However, the most poignant for me was from Liz, and reading her post it's clear she's not a Tory (unlike madasafish).
I have been a member of the Labour Party since I was at school - fought the Trots through the 80's, and thought Blair was brilliant (I still do).
The behaviour of Brown and his cronies has disgusted me.  I will still vote Labour (I can't do anything else), but I just beleive we have made a terrible mistake in letting Brown get away with this disloyalty and selfishness. 

Re: Getting out of the Brown stuff (#43)

You are right.  I have supported Labour for 45 years and could never vote for another party.  I am in a real dilemma about whether I should vote in the next election because of Gordon Brown. It is a long time since I have felt so down about my party.  I always "felt" that Gordon Brown would be a disaster and of course we have all had leaks over the years about his appalling behaviour towards cabinet colleagues and Tony Blair.  Somehow, he thinks that he has always had the "right" to be PM.  I am also disappointed that there was no competition for the leadership.  A telling comment in Blair Unbound as it related to David Miliband points up why he did not stand.  He worried that his supporters would be mangled by the Brown mob.  

A sad state of affairs in the recent Us television interview.  In order to ingratiate himself with the audience he stated that he had worked closely with Tony Blair for 25 years.  His PR people wanted him to say this to improve his standing in that country after the poor initial meeting with the US president.   What a mess - no British Prime Minister should have to lower himself in this way.

Pat S - I could go on.  Retirement from employment is wonderful!  I have time to read everything and being a politicala animal keep abreast of what is going on. I will have to watch that knowledge does not make me an old cynic!   Regards 

Re: Getting out of the Brown stuff (#44)

Unless you live in Kirkcaldy you won't actually have to vote for Brown - it's your local candidate/MP that you will be supporting. I won't have any difficulty doing that, Brown or no Brown, though if I was in a constituency of one of his key supporters it might not be so easy. 

My view is that unless there is a dramatic improvement in the next few months (and I don't think there will be) we must lobby our party colleagues and MPs to tell Brown to go. Don't worry about the complicated leadership rules - he would have to go if it was clear that he had lost the confidence of the Party and the PLP. I think we are quite close to that point now.  I find it very telling that no one has come forward on this board to defend him.

Re: Getting out of the Brown stuff (#41)

One of things that made me laugh out loud eairler this week was Number 10 demanding that backbenchers and Cabinet Ministers fully support the PM.  Err hang on a minute did'nt Brown and his cronies undermine Tony Blair for 10 years in just about everything he did.  As somebody has mentioned the book 'Blair Unbound', paints a damming picture of Gordon Brown character and those around him.  It's amazing how things come back to haunt you sometimes.

Re: Getting out of the Brown stuff (#42)

Re: Getting out of the Brown stuff (#45)

But not nearly as bad as this (from the same person).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7352612.stm


I'm not a Brown fan but you really have to wonder where the Labour parliamenatry whips have gone.  Desai's comments are positively treacherous.  Is there some sort of negative history between him and Brown?

Re: Getting out of the Brown stuff (#46)

"Gordon Brown was put on earth to remind people how good Tony Blair was."

It does ring true, though, doesn't it?  Even Miliband agrees.

Re: Getting out of the Brown stuff (#47)

In my opinion Labour will loose the next election. Hopefully Brown will have the grace to step aside and everyone can move on. Maybe the Labour Party will be able to elect a leader! By all accounts New Labour is disintegrating now that the spiritual leaders are has-beens. I can only hope that some time in opposition will send Labour back to its core voters. 

Re: Getting out of the Brown stuff (#48)

I don't think it's inevitable that we will lose the next election.  There is no real enthusiasm for the Tories - I was around in the 1979 election and you could really feel the move towards Thatcher on the doorstep and in the pubs.
What I get now is a very strong anti-government mood coupled with a strong mood against politicians in general - but certainly no great enthusiasm for the tories

Re: Getting out of the Brown stuff (#49)

p.s. Despite everything the Press and the Tories (not to mention some people on this site) have said about Harriet Harman, she's turning into a real star.  She was great on Question Time tonight - she fought our corner and reminded us, that despite all the present problems, why we need a Labour Government.
Well done Harriet.

Re: Getting out of the Brown stuff (#50)

Well at least Harriet Harman had the gut's to go on Question Time.  I wonder if Brown would have the bottle to go on the show?  I remember a few years back Blair appeared on Question Time even thou his son had been arrested the day before and there had been a series of bad news stories for the Government, under pressure he produced a bravado performance.  Do anybody really think Brown could do the same on Question Time or Newsnight?  Could the British public cope with being lectured on 'long term decisions'.

The Times had a interview with Ed Balls:
'Stop this indulgent nonsense or party will suffer, Ed Balls tells Gordon Brown critics':
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3768148.ece

One can only laugh when one considers how much Balls did to undermine Tony Blair.  Remember Balls basically co-wrote the book 'Brown's Britain' with Robert Peston which came out close to the 2005 election and did a great deal of damage to Labour.  Balls was the source of many of the plots to try and force Blair out and undermine Labour's reform program.  In 'Blair Unbound' Tony Blair says that he felt like a battered and abused housewife because of Balls actions.  Maybe Jack Straw should have given Ed Balls a smack on behalf of all Labour members?  I've got nothing but contempt for the guy.  The idea of him being a future leader of the party is simply nonsense, and yet to meet a single sane person who thinks a decent idea.  The only people who thinks a realistic prospect are his media buddy's in Westminister. 

Re: Getting out of the Brown stuff (#51)

Eleven years ago, The Gobling King <i>was</i> planning on the long term, to wit, stay in power as long as possible. The fact that his whole 'economic miracle' was built on sand (or more accurately on credit) has only just become apparent (except to the vast minority who saw this coming).

This is now the <i>long term!</i>

This is the end of the end of the road for Labour for the time being. You can point at the £2bn that Lamont lost on Black Wednesday (glossing over the fact that Labour enthusiastically supported our entry into ERM) but that is as nothing compared to the fall-out this time.

* To be fair, the Tories engineered a housing bubble in the late 1980s, which also ended in disaster, but as house prices now are about 20% higher relative to average wages than in 1989, they have a lot further and longer to fall...

Re: Getting out of the Brown stuff (#52)

Here's the problem:

Many think that the problem is, that we need to reconnect with the values of the 94-97 era. But the New Labour wing of the party is ignoring a simple fact: there is a changing shift to the left amongst the general public, for the first time since the Callaghan-Thatcher transition.

The Middle-Class is getting angry, but on the side of traditional progressivism, in favor of increasing taxation on the uber-rich. We must exploit this, but Brown needs to rcognise this shift.

Re: Getting out of the Brown stuff (#53)

What on earth is the point of this line of conversation? We have a leader, for better or worse. We did not get an opportunity for an election, but nevertheless we do have a leader. We have an election campaign going on now and a general election within two years. Clearly whatever our thoughts on our leader this is very likely indeed to be the person in post up to and probably beyond the general election (which, as a Labour Party member, I hope we will win). Talk in public of alternatives to our present leader is political suicide.
We need to rebuild the party, a huge challenge of course, try to reform the party and restore some democracy, another huge challenge, and fight our corner politically within the party using whatever channels are available.
Many of us will have contemplated leaving the party - but to what end? I simply cannot see a better realistic alternative to the Labour Party. And I believe myself that I can maximise my political effectiveness (however limited that might be) by working within it. Where else would we go?