It's over Hillary, please leave

TonyHannon Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 07:00:24 PM GMT Print-friendly version Facebook

A hammering in Mississippi currently being handed out, a superdelegate backer being forced to resign over a sex scandal (which will remind everyone of Bill) and now flip-flopping on the Clinton-Obama ticket idea which she originally hinted at - I wonder what it'll take for her to realise she's finished in this campaign?



I’m a bit sick and tired of her remorseless and increasingly nasty Presidential campaign. I held her and her capability in very high regard (and her husband much more so) until this year.

In her own words and actions she has been disgusting and will be a deserved loser soon – I just hope she doesn’t take down the Democratic Party’s chances with her:

  • Obama is not a Muslim, according to Clinton in an interview, who cynically adds the rider: “as far as I know”. “I take him at his word” she says – indeed!! – as if she has only a cursory biography on him.
  • She’s in second place hinting at the possibility of Obama as VP over the weekend before rejecting it today.
  • Eye-stretching claims on foreign experience which she made last week before Ohio and Texas, have now been rubbished since she made them – some of which (i.e. Kosovo and Northern Ireland are out-and-out lies)
The race is over yet she only looks to get nastier and hands sound-bytes for John McCain's campaign.

Obama will go to the Democratic Convention with a lead of between 100 and 200 elected delegates. Even if Hillary wins by large margins the states she’s currently expected to lose – she will not close the delegate count.

Does anyone really think that the superdelegates will overturn the will of their own electorate?  Even if she has the popular vote – do people think the superdelegates will render pointless their own system?

If they did, they’d be throwing away the party's chances of victory and to stigmatise it among African-Americans and young people for the rest of their lives.

The last President was elected by a stitch-up – I’m sure nobody wants another one.


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It's over Hillary, please leave | 35 comments (35 topical)

Re: It's over Hillary, please leave (#1)

by jkitleft on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 07:08:01 PM GMT

Don't doubt McCain, I think to win, he'll select Condi as his veep


Re: It's over Hillary, please leave (#2)

by TonyHannon on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:50:59 PM GMT

I'm quite worried about McCain which is why I'd like Hillary to realise it's over. Although I don't think he'll win the democratic nomination as well ;-)

The Republicans have already begun organising for November and the Democratic fight is going on until next month at least.

It's unbelievable - isn't it? After seven years of GOP mismanagement that they're in contention in this race.


[ Parent ]

Re: It's over Hillary, please leave (#3)

by lastword on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 09:37:44 PM GMT

The way Hillary Clinton is behaving is very sad.  I have really rated her for a number of years but I have been dismayed watching her tactics over recent weeks. 

 

A week is a long time in politics and it must be devastating for her to have entered this contest thinking she was a shoo-in but then facing a rival of Barack Obama's calibre came along. 

 

Clinton needs to accept the reality that the democrat party nomination for President is not, and was never, her birthright. 

 

Being challenged by an unforseen rival or losing a political contest is an occupational hazzard of the game she's in. 

She is certainly not displaying the kind of serious maturity I'd expect from a Commander in Chief.


[ Parent ]

Re: It's over Hillary, please leave (#4)

by swatantra on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 10:54:33 PM GMT

You can say that again. but i'm not worried about McCain. He'll be rumbled, or unraveled before May is out.


[ Parent ]

Re: It's over Hillary, please leave (#5)

by NorthernMonkey on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 05:10:38 AM GMT

This is the most shameful piece of Hillary bashing from you yet Tony. The fact that you brought up Governor Spitzer's relations with prostitutes and yet tied that to Hillary as though she has done something wrong is appauling.

Never mind the fact that one of Obama's staff got caught out calling Hillary 'a monster'. Is this Obama's new politics? Is this the change Washington needs? I don't think so.

I know democracy seems to be a bit of an inconvenience from Obama fans, but I for one think it might actually be a nice idea to let every state and territory have their say in the Democratic nomination. Or am I just being silly here?

Could the Obama fans perhaps be calling for an end to the race now because we all know the next state will win big for Hillary perhaps? Or is it because Florida and Michigan might actually be able to vote again and give big wins to Hillary?


By the time Puerto Rico's over, Hillary should have won more votes than Obama overall - at that point the superdelegates should flood in for her. Given the Democrats supposedly chose this system on a proportional representation basis then it's only fair that the candidate with the most votes wins.


I thought it was interesting on March 4th when exit polls showed more Hillary supporters would vote against Obama in November if he were the nominee than vice versa. Given the arrogance of the Obama crowd (which Tony displays so well), that's no surprise.


Give democracy a chance I say and let every vote count, not just some. And when it's all over and finished, I'll say fairly and squarely "It's over Obama, please leave."


Re: It's over Hillary, please leave (#6)

by TonyHannon on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:51:46 AM GMT

NM, you're not one for reading posts properly, are you?
I said 'will remind people of Bill'. Not 'is tied to' or 'she's done something wrong'. It's already been widely written about in the US press.

Out comes the Monkey with the usual name-calling when he’s without cogent argument - You're appalled? The post is shameful? I'm arrogant? You’re tendency for name-calling does not do your credibility or argument any favours.

I'm criticising a dirty campaign – I’m genuinely disappointed – I expected more. I'm not making anything up (follow the links!) they are her own words and those of her campaign and YOU'RE UPSET that I'm Hillary bashing? That's called faux outrage, my friend and you’re not very good at it.

For a candidate who claims to have substance – her campaign is based on flimsy, overblown attack and, recently, on out-and-out lies. That is a fact.
Samantha Power resigned within hours of the ‘Monster’ quote. Hillary’s campaign (where I point much of the blame for her nastiness). Bill Shaheen lasted two days before stepping away from Clinton’s campaign. Someone in her staff released a picture of Obama in Muslim garb. From Obama’s side the “monster” quote was the worst of it.   

It is over - it's simply not arrogance, delegate maths says it's over. [It is a delicious irony to hear a supporter of the “inevitability candidate” accuse arrogance, by the way!].  

They will not junk the entire process for her even if she has a tiny lead in the popular vote. Remember 1968? They are still picking up the pieces.

Let me ask this though - Are you not disappointed at Hillary's campaign and her lies about foreign experience?  How is this substance? And don’t come back with “Obama’s nearly as bad or worse” – it simply isn’t true.

I really expected more from her.


[ Parent ]

Re: It's over Hillary, please leave (#10)

by NorthernMonkey on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:40:00 PM GMT

No, what Obama supporters expect from her is to give up, roll over and hand him the keys to the White House even though she's got a good chance of winning.

And if you think the maths means it's over, then I don't think you're too good at maths Tony! Neither candidate will win on pledged delegates, so it will be up to the superdelegates. I expect that the superdelegates will go to the candidate who won the most votes from the American people - and I expect that to be Hillary.

I know all of this brings you out in a cold sweat, so you have to resort to distorting the figures in order to get your way, but unfortunately for you, democracy will take it's course.

You did not need to mention Governor Spitzer whatsoever. The only tenuous link you provide is that he is only one of the 200+ party bigwigs who has expressed support and superdelegate status for her. Do you think every Obama-supporting superdelegate is unblemished? And even if they weren't, that in no way says anything about Obama. Why can't you admit that you made a mistake here and shouldn't have brought him into this at all?

Out comes the Monkey with the usual name-calling when he’s without cogent argument - You're appalled? The post is shameful? I'm arrogant? You’re tendency for name-calling does not do your credibility or argument any favours.

Erm...what name calling would that be Tony? Or is this another straw-man argument again? Describing someone as acting in an arrogant manner is not that bad, especially when it's true. Your sarcastic name-calling use of 'The Monkey' is worse, not that it particularly bothers me anyway.


To be honest, I'm disappointed by Obama's lack of substance. I don't think he's brought anything to this campaign other than compromise, hysteria and over-enthusiastic robotic fans who in the blogosphere in general display more nastiness and bitterness towards their fellow Democrats than Hillary ever would.

Obama says he's reaching out to form a new majority. If he does win, he'll find it very difficult to win Hillary supporters on board that's for sure.


[ Parent ]

Re: It's over Hillary, please leave (#12)

by TonyHannon on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 04:08:59 PM GMT

I'll take from your complete lack of an answer on Hillary's tactics that even an apologist like you find her behaviour shameful.

That is, of course, if you apply the same moral standard of behaviour to her as you do to me - if not, you're a hypocrite - as least as far as  this "hysterical, over-enthuasiastic, robotic fan" can see.

Despite Obama doing far better among educated people and a far broader coalition of ages, races and incomes, given that she's lost over 25 States by wide margins - Hilary's campaign maintains this idea that Obama supporters have been deluded, are all hysterical or unrealistic. NOW THAT'S ARROGANCE!!

Apply the most generous poll figures to Hillary in the races that are left and she won't win. It's also unlikely she'll get the popular vote. But that's the smaller issue - what I, and others, are complaining about  - and you are failing to answer - is the unfounded nastiness of her campaign. She is also handing John McCain soundbytes by putting him ahead of Obama which will hurt the Democratic Party - a win at all costs politician and I really dislike that about her campaign.  

You really have some cheek to ask for a retraction. I said I held her in high regard. I said I blamed her campaign team for much of the nastiness. Check any coverage of the Spitzer case and you'll see that people raise a link with this race. Any coverage at all will raise the question as to how if affects her. I didn't make a mistake bringing it up.

Geraldine Ferraro said Obama wouldn't be in this position if he wasn't black - does that not offend your sensibilities? I bet you don't even address it. Incidentally, she said the same thing about Jesse Jackson in 1984.

She'll keep her finance position the Clinton team, I expect.

Let's try again then - Can I ask: Are you not disappointed at Hillary's campaign and her lies about foreign experience?

No whining about bias or attacking some tertiary point about something for your fake anger - just have a go at addressing the question which is the topic of the post. 

By the way - you call yourself a Monkey.


[ Parent ]

Re: It's over Hillary, please leave (#13)

by NorthernMonkey on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 06:05:40 PM GMT

I am abolustely not apologetic for anything Hillary has done in the race - she's a strong leader and in a democratic race she's perfectly entitled to throw criticisms at her opponent (and boy, is there a lot of them - no universal health care, wants to harm free trade but then backtracks on it, poor foreign policy decisions etc.).


With regards to the melodramatic nonsense about Hillary's foreign policy that you've made up, I have nothing to be disappointed about. If I were to think who would I want to deal with the Irans and North Koreas of this world then I'd back Hillary every time. Obama seems like quite a weak individual and I don't trust him to be tough enough in a high-pressured situation. Either that or he'll do something completely ludicrous like carpet-bomb Pakistan in order to get Bin Laden (which he has already said he'd be quite prepared to do).

The number of states won makes no difference - in our general elections, the Tories always win most English counties based on votes - should we let them have overall majorities in the Commons every time then?


When you look at the calibre of the states won - Hillary wins the big hitters like California, Texas, New York, Florida, Michigan, Massachussets, New Jersey and will probably get Pennsylvania and Puerto Rico (territory - not a state) as well. Obama tends to win the smaller, less lucrative states which probably won't go Democrat in November anyway like Idaho and Mississippi.


You most did certainly did make a mistake (and showed a nasty side to your argument) by bringing Spitzer into this. His affairs with prostitutes has nothing to do with Hillary Clinton and you should apologise for your remark.


What I'm most disappointed about Obama is that he fails to reach out to people in his own party and instead chooses to use sarcastic digs in at Hillary at every opportunity. Is this building a new majority? Is this the new politics we need? Care to answer this Tony? And aren't you disappointed that Obama alienates half of his own party - many of whom will now not vote for him in November if he's the nominee?

Geraldine Ferraro said Obama wouldn't be in this position if he wasn't black - does that not offend your sensibilities?

Absolutely not and I agree with every word. I'll quote to you what MSNBC.com said this morning regarding Obama - "And his big victories in Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana and South Carolina were based in large part on black Democrats coming out in droves to support an African-American candidate." So why is it that when the media point it out, Obama makes no complaint, but when a Hillary supporter says it, suddenly the 'racist card' is played.

Portraying somebody as a racist when they are not is the lowest of the low and the Obama team have gone further down in my estimations as a result. In some of these states, 90% of the black population voted for Obama - that's right - 90%! Do you seriously believe Tony, that every single one of those black voters voted for Obama on purely merit alone - or did some, and I dare say a lot, vote for him because of the colour of his skin? And if you do believe it was on merit, then why did other demographics not think the same way?

Not to mention the fact that the media feel scared to criticise Obama in case they get accused of racism - but they're quite happy to use any sexist remark possible to get at Hillary.

I'm glad that Hillary has chosen to stand by Ferraro and defend her from the childish taunts of 'racism'.


[ Parent ]

Re: It's over Hillary, please leave (#16)

by CitizenAndreas on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:57:14 PM GMT

If I might weigh in with something of an opinion here, I'm someone who's leaning more towards Obama but ultimately wants to see a Democrat in the White House. Are you absolutely sure you think that Hilary has been completely beyond reproach here and there is nothing worth apologising for.

What about the Somali photograph? Is there a reasonable explanation for it.

With regard to his sarcastic digs, sideswipes like "Is the the politics we need?" would only seem to work unless there is the an impression that Hilary is engaging in attack politics. Obama's reponses demonstrate a very ruthless kind of thinking, but ultimately it appears to be Hilary who left herself open.

I'll admit that Hilary is having much harder time with the media, and I think that's unfair since I think the media are to blame for fanning the flames. Ultimately though, I don't think Hilary has nothing to apologise for, she has got a good few things wrong.



[ Parent ]

Re: It's over Hillary, please leave (#25)

by NorthernMonkey on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 03:41:20 AM GMT

The Somali photo had nothing to do with her personally. And to be honest, I find his 'oh no, I couldn't possibly be a Muslim' attitude quite patronising.

It's fair enough that he wants the truth to reported rather than false rumours, but he seems to take great offence at being called a Muslim and I don't like that.

As for the sarcastic digs, I was thinking more about the 'you're likeable enough Hillary' line.


[ Parent ]

Re: It's over Hillary, please leave (#17)

by TonyHannon on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:23:22 PM GMT

I am abolustely [sic] not apologetic for anything Hillary has done in the race - she's a strong leader and in a democratic race she's perfectly entitled to throw criticisms at her opponent

Ok – fair enough. I asked “disappointed” but not apologetic will do. Let’s look at some of the things you’re ok with:

Hillary says John McCain will be a better commander in chief than her colleague a sound-byte that will be played again and again by Republicans. Not a problem?
Hillary says she helped bring peace to Northern Ireland – David Trimble says it’s a pretty silly claim – she was a cheerleader. Foreign ‘experience’ is core to her candidacy. Not a problem?

The scaremongering tactic of the Bush years deftly employed by Clinton’s campaign with an ad about “Children sleeping safely” while “the phone rings at 3am in the White House”. Scare tactics copied from Republicans – not a problem?

Lying about a “harrowing” trip to Bosnia which forms part of her experience despite the fact a comedian and a singer attended with her (can they be President?). Of course the comedian has now completely debunked her claim. Lying about experience and making it a central platform – not a problem?

As I said above – no forceful correction about Obama’s faith – not a Muslim “as far as I know” she says. If she had any integrity she’d have said it was a gross slur on Obama and a slight on Muslims that their faith would be used as a negative. Not a problem for you?

She demanded that he "reject" the endorsement of Louis Farrakhan, but remained silent when Rush Limbaugh stirred up votes for her in Texas. Not a problem (do you even know Rush Limbaugh?)
What sticks in the craw though is that we all had to turn a blind eye and play down her shady business deals and penchant for scandals in the name of defending the bigger picture - whether it was Travelgate, Vince Foster, Cattle Futures, Web Hubbell or Norman Hsu. Yet she goes false attack of the trivial with gusto and relish. Not a problem for you?
Well it is for me and I’m sick of her. That’s my point.

None of this is criticising her opponent – which I agree she’s perfectly entitled to do. The examples above are the mechanics of a desperate and dishonest campaign.

You say:

“And his big victories in Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana and South Carolina were based in large part on black Democrats coming out in droves to support an African-American candidate”

Being black makes it easy now eh? There’s a turnaround. Time to get rid of the BME lists lads – you were advantaged all along!!! Ferraro is an idiot. Even Clinton brought herself to say the comments were “regrettable”.

Obama’s demographics are better, wider coalition of races, ages and incomes – her strongholds are older voters and women. Unlike you, I don’t have the temerity to suggest that Clinton is doing well with women because she’s a woman.

Actually - it’s a bit disrespectful of you to say black people handed votes to a black candidate irrespective of merit. Explain that!

Your last daftness defies belief:

“Not to mention the fact that the media feel scared to criticise Obama in case they get accused of racism - but they're quite happy to use any sexist remark possible to get at Hillary.”

They’ve run fake stories about Obama being a Muslim in a Madrassa, he’s been asked in debates if he’s a Muslim, he’s been asked if Bill Clinton was the first black president, he’s been compared to Jesse Jackson, they keep referring to his middle name – Hussein – not to mention the crap about America being ready for a smoker in the White House or the crap about his church, if this is timidity on his race – I’d hate to see what an aggressive campaign would be like.

As I’ve said – if you think I’m the only one thinks that the NY Governor infidelity story will remind people (remind people – not linked or connected) of the Clintons – you’re wrong and naïve.   

Anyway – it seems you’re an implacable backer of political dishonesty and shoddy campaigning. Or - to be fair to you, if you weren't aware of the different issues - you'd only be an ignorant backer who doesn't care about fact.

Hopefully, you buck up your ideas before knocking on doors for Labour!


[ Parent ]

Re: It's over Hillary, please leave (#27)

by NorthernMonkey on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 04:16:47 AM GMT

Hillary says John McCain will be a better commander in chief than her colleague a sound-byte that will be played again and again by Republicans.

Well to be fair, he probably will. I can trust him to stand up to Ahmadinejad - Obama will probably want to attend a lavish ceremony in Tehran with him.

Hillary says she helped bring peace to Northern Ireland – David Trimble says it’s a pretty silly claim – she was a cheerleader. Foreign ‘experience’ is core to her candidacy.

Hillary has never had a major foreign policy role, but she certainly has more experience on foreign matters than Obama.

As I said above – no forceful correction about Obama’s faith – not a Muslim “as far as I know” she says. If she had any integrity she’d have said it was a gross slur on Obama and a slight on Muslims that their faith would be used as a negative.

And what's wrong with saying 'as far as I know' - how on earth is she supposed to know his back story or what his family's believes. I'm annoyed that Obama seems to take great offence at being called a Muslim rather than just politely pointing out it isn't true. Not a problem for you?

She demanded that he "reject" the endorsement of Louis Farrakhan, but remained silent when Rush Limbaugh stirred up votes for her in Texas. Not a problem (do you even know Rush Limbaugh?)

You clearly don't have a clue who he is if you think his 'endorsement' is in any way serious. Both you and him share a common trait in that you're both Hillary-haters.


Farrakhan is a repulsive character, but his endorsement of Obama certainly was serious.

The examples above are the mechanics of a desperate and dishonest campaign.

So desperate that she's going to pick up big wins in Pennsylvania, Florida, Michigan and Puerto Rico despite Obama's frontrunner status? What a bizarre interpretation.

Being black makes it easy now eh? There’s a turnaround. Time to get rid of the BME lists lads – you were advantaged all along!!!

Now I think that's called completely twisting around someone's words in order to accuse them of something completely unrelated to what was said. Why can't you reply in an honest fashion?

Being black certainly gives you an advantage when black people are voting, yes!

I noticed you dodged my question, so I'll ask you again and I look forward to your reply:

In some of these states, 90% of the black population voted for Obama - that's right - 90%! Do you seriously believe Tony, that every single one of those black voters voted for Obama on purely merit alone - or did some, and I dare say a lot, vote for him because of the colour of his skin? And if you do believe it was on merit, then why did other demographics not think the same way?

Obama’s demographics are better

Now that really does typify the Obama mindset in that only certain groups of people should count. So old people are worse are they? And so are women? And white working class folks?

Tony, no one demographic is 'better' than another and you should be ashamed of your comment. You can make that your second retraction / apology of the thread if you wish.


And yes - many of those women voters will have voted for Hillary precisely because she is a woman! At least I'm brave enough to admit that.

They’ve run fake stories about Obama being a Muslim in a Madrassa, he’s been asked in debates if he’s a Muslim, he’s been asked if Bill Clinton was the first black president, he’s been compared to Jesse Jackson, they keep referring to his middle name – Hussein

And what does Hillary get asked? All the typical woman questions - like when Katie Couric spent half an hour asking 'how popular were you at school', 'who was your first boyfriend' etc. whilst they treated Obama like the Messiah (like his supporters generally do).

Will the media devote extensive coverage to what his church minister has said in the past about 9/11 among other things - who knows, but it won't be anywhere near as much as what it would be if Hillary's church minister had said this.

As I’ve said – if you think I’m the only one thinks that the NY Governor infidelity story will remind people (remind people – not linked or connected) of the Clintons – you’re wrong and naïve.   

Oh yes, it will certainly remind people and that's because the Obama supporters will do their absolute best to keep it in the news for as long as possible.

Anyway – it seems you’re an implacable backer of political dishonesty and shoddy campaigning. Or - to be fair to you, if you weren't aware of the different issues - you'd only be an ignorant backer who doesn't care about fact.

Hopefully, you buck up your ideas before knocking on doors for Labour!

I'm an honest backer of freedom and democracy and have been completely willing to stand by my principles regardless of what others think. Obama supporters are simply sheep jumping on yet another bandwagon only to start moaning when it all goes wrong and 'President Obama' disappoints them.

Unlike you Tony, I actually think it would be nice to let every voter in every state and territory have their say on the Democratic nomination.

And like any true Labour supporter, I believe in honest principles like universal health care - shame your candidate can't say the same thing.


[ Parent ]

Re: It's over Hillary, please leave (#34)

by TonyHannon on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 05:18:28 PM GMT

And like any true Labour supporter, I believe in honest principles like universal health care - shame your candidate can't say the same thing.

I'm sure you have principles, NM, but you're abandoning them now when you stand by Ferraro's mornic remarks.

She said he (Obama) wouldn't be where he is if he weren't black. It must therefore follow that his being black is an electoral advantage.

I didn't twist your words - this is nonsense.

I did answer your incoherent question. I said: his demographics are better.

You ignorantly spluttered:

Tony, no one demographic is 'better' than another and you should be ashamed of your comment. You can make that your second retraction / apology of the thread if you wish.  

Which is an answer to something I didn't say - can you not read posts properly?

His demographics are better - a wider (which is what's better) coalition of people - white people, young people, wealthy people, poor people, educated and uneducated people etc.

I accept (I think I did already) that a few people will vote for him because he's black in the same way a few people will vote for Hillary because she's a woman - it is patently stupid for anyone to say that these few extra votes are the reason either of these candidates got to where they are today - patently stupid.

Regarding Rush Limbaugh - look how many votes he's picked up for her by reading this.

Regarding Obama's Pastor - you only need to look at how widely his remarks have been covered this week to debunk the soft ride claim.

Who was her first boyfriend? That's a tough question???

Farrakhan is a repulsive character, but his endorsement of Obama certainly was serious.

So is Osama Bin Laden - his endorsement of John Kerry didn't put you off Kerry, did it?

Anyway - we've reached the pointless back and forward that usually happens when we clash on this issue. 

Thanks for playing!!! ;-)
 


[ Parent ]

Re: It's over Hillary, please leave (#7)

by Googler on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:56:19 PM GMT

I would also like to point that Hillary has been making comments about how she thinks that McCain would make a better Commander in Chief than Obama. One of her surrogates, Gerladine Ferraro, also made the assertion that Obama would not be where he is if he were a white male or a black female (as opposed to Clinton who is there solely on merit and not as she is a former first lady.)

Finally, if we are takling about popular vote, Obama currently holds a formidable lead over Clinton in those stakes too. It is a little old but the Daily Kos calculated that after Texas and Ohio it was 833,000 ish (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/3/11/143228/984/382/473558) and this is before the almost 100,000 he gained over Hillary in Mississippi. This is getting ugly and I think Hillary's concern now is to do as much damage to Obama as possible, providing ammo for McCain so she can run again in 4 years.


Re: It's over Hillary, please leave (#8)

by NorthernMonkey on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:10:19 PM GMT

I see that this has been shoved to the main story - nice to show there's no favouritism to either candidate from the editor.

I hope the same courtesy is extended to me when I create the 'It's over Obama, please leave' thread on April 23rd.


Re: It's over Hillary, please leave (#9)

by TonyHannon on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:27:11 PM GMT

Please make an argument. A sensible one.


[ Parent ]

Re: It's over Hillary, please leave (#11)

by alexhilton on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:26:08 PM GMT

I'm actually a Hillary supporter, but I promoted the piece because it was well-written, clear, relevant, and had stimulated some interesting debate.

Win or lose on delegates or superdelegates, I believe Hillary is best equipped to take on McCain. I also think she would be a strong President, with her own views and agenda.

Bush's foreign policy was based very nmuch on the views of influential advisers, Blair's very much on an almost religious belief that only he was capable of discerning "the right thing" when it came to difficult decisions. Obama strikes me as being susceptible to both of these approaches.

Other than the obvious influence of Bill, I can't see Hillary being dominated by either svengali-like advisers or her own spirituality.

And it might do the world good to have a woman in this enormous position of power.

On the Condi proposal, at his age, Republicans really do have to consider their VP as a potential President and they could do worse than Rice. However, I don't think they would want her, being so closely associated with Bush.

Colin Powell on the other hand is very highly regarded by the public and could be enough to ensure a McCain victory regardless of the Democrat nominee.


[ Parent ]

Re: It's over Hillary, please leave (#20)

by bigpapi on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 12:54:06 AM GMT

May I try and bring some rationality to this argument?

Firstly, as you may be aware Geraldine Ferraro has resigned from the Clinton campaign - less than 24 hours after telling Bill O'Reilly on Fox News Channel that she was not retained by the Clinton campaign and so could neither resign or be fired.

Secondly, Obama winning States with predominantly African-American populations is correct - but perhaps NM could then explain why Obama has also won near "all White" States such as North Dakota, Nebraska, Iowa, Connecticut, Vermont, Wyoming, Alaska and Maine?

Finally NM, the only way Clinton can realistically be ahead in the popular vote at the end of all the Primaries/Caucuses is to have re-votes in Florida and Michigan.  Any victory she has in Pennsylvania will likely be matched by Obama in North Carolina.  Obama can also expect to win in South Dakota and Montana, with West Virginia and Indiana being toss-ups.

Even if Florida and Michigan re-vote in some way, it is likely that Obama can limit the damage in Florida to a similar 4-5 percentage point margin that he lost Texas by, and Clinton would win Michigan by a similar margin to Ohio, which would still leave her short in the popular vote and in pledged delegates.

According to Public Broadcasting Systems superdelegate database, Hillary Clinton has picked up only three superdelegates this month, compared to about seven for Obama.  (I'm not counting the switch in New York where the new Governor is a Clinton supporter replacing Spitzer, another Clinton supporter).


[ Parent ]

Re: It's over Hillary, please leave (#28)

by NorthernMonkey on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 04:22:19 AM GMT

Secondly, Obama winning States with predominantly African-American populations is correct - but perhaps NM could then explain why Obama has also won near "all White" States such as North Dakota, Nebraska, Iowa, Connecticut, Vermont, Wyoming, Alaska and Maine?

Would you like to point out where exactly I've said that white people don't vote for Obama?

Or are you adopting Tony's tactics of twisting the argument around?

Finally NM, the only way Clinton can realistically be ahead in the popular vote at the end of all the Primaries/Caucuses is to have re-votes in Florida and Michigan.  Any victory she has in Pennsylvania will likely be matched by Obama in North Carolina.  Obama can also expect to win in South Dakota and Montana, with West Virginia and Indiana being toss-ups.

Well Florida and Michigan in all likelihood will vote again and I'd expect decent victories for Hillary in both.

Pennsylvania is larger than North Carolina and both South Dakota and Montana are tiny.

You've also forgot to mention Puerto Rico - the final race of all - that should provide a big boost for Hillary to round the campaign off.


[ Parent ]

Re: It's over Hillary, please leave (#14)

by jkitleft on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:54:58 PM GMT

I'm increasingly disliking the former president. It is not the only time he played the race card in this campaign with Obama. Remember 1992, and the muted nature of the left about his membership of an 'integrated' club, which basically meant that the closest Black Arkansasians got to the club of 500 white men, was scrubbing the toilets. Rickey Ray Rector? The Clintons, are the dirtiest campaigners of all. Sam Power was referring to the inaction of the Clintons over the Balkan and Rwanda conflicts, and please no one point out that Hillary wasn't president at the time, otherwise the 'Hillary is the experienced candidate' thesis is deeply flawed. If your thesis was correct, than the argument ought to hold, that she had a major swing over policy, and could have convinced her husband to intervene.


Re: It's over Hillary, please leave (#15)

by jkitleft on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:55:54 PM GMT

I'm increasingly disliking the former president. It is not the only time he played the race card in this campaign with Obama. Remember 1992, and the muted nature of the left about his membership of an 'integrated' club, which basically meant that the closest Black Arkansasians got to the club of 500 white men, was scrubbing the toilets. Rickey Ray Rector? The Clintons, are the dirtiest campaigners of all. Sam Power was referring to the inaction of the Clintons over the Balkan and Rwanda conflicts, and please no one point out that Hillary wasn't president at the time, otherwise the 'Hillary is the experienced candidate' thesis is deeply flawed. If your thesis was correct, than the argument ought to hold, that she had a major swing over policy, and could have convinced her husband to intervene.


Re: It's over Hillary, please leave (#18)

by HenryG on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:51:55 PM GMT

If anyone is in any doubt as to the spinning moral compass of the Clinton campaign (sorry Northern Monkey) then have a look at this story running now picked up by PoliticalBetting.com. Make your own mind up on the news story of Ferraro's bizarre racist remarks.

http://politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2008/03/12/should-clinton-have-done-more-than-regret- ferraro/


Re: It's over Hillary, please leave (#26)

by NorthernMonkey on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 03:44:00 AM GMT

What exactly was racist about what she said?

She even said herself that the only reason why she got picked for the VP nomination in 1984 was because she was a woman.

She made a perfectly fair point.


[ Parent ]

Re: It's over Hillary, please leave (#29)

by Group51 on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 12:54:28 PM GMT

Blacks are voting for Obama because of the colour of his skin, but whites are voting for Obama for other reasons?  You don't see anything 'odd' or loaded about that proposition?

At the start of the campaign I didn't see much difference between Hillary and Obama.  But lately, Hillary's campaign, since they've started to lose, has become a win at all costs campaign.

The 'swiftboating' of Obama's comments on Iraq and on the 'battle of ideas' has turned me against Hillary as a candidate. Well, Bill Clinton has.

At the start of the campaign I was very much a Hillary supporter.  But then I heard Obama speak.  I'll be damned, but I felt the presence of the ghost of JFK in the room.  I don't know, but in my heart I sense that's why black people might vote for Obama (and this is why Bill and Hillary attack him on substance).  And then you listen to his actual polices and on Iraq (he had the better judgement back in 2003) and on the rest they aren't that much different to Clintons.


[ Parent ]

Re: It's over Hillary, please leave (#31)

by NorthernMonkey on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 07:37:56 PM GMT

But then I heard Obama speak.  I'll be damned, but I felt the presence of the ghost of JFK in the room.

My. Goodness.

Is he hypnotising you lot or something?


[ Parent ]

Re: It's over Hillary, please leave (#35)

by Group51 on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:09:43 PM GMT

No.  Do you not realise that the President of the United States is also 'leader of the free world'?  Leadership is not just about being a technocrat.


[ Parent ]

Re: It's over Hillary, please leave (#19)

by Mark Wadsworth on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:57:49 PM GMT

Yup. If women want to vote Shrillary, that's fine. And if black people want to vote for Obama-bin-Laden that's fine. Problem is, once you stoke up these racial tensions, yer average voter will say "I'd rather vote for McCain. At least he does excellent oven chips".


Re: It's over Hillary, please leave (#21)

by pauldburgin on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 10:37:25 AM GMT

"I’m a bit sick and tired of her remorseless and increasingly nasty Presidential campaign. I held her and her capability in very high regard (and her husband much more so) until this year."
 
Exactly how I feel and having just come back from the US I can say your assessments are bang on the nose. Barack Obama has tried to keep negativity out of this campaign against great provocation and has carried states you would not have expected him to get. Anyone who can carry both Wyoming and Mississippi has a lot going for them and for someone whose campaign is mainly financially run on the funds of volunteers as well. I am just taken aback by the sheer decency of this Presidential front-runner.
Plus he wants more Federal aid for Health and Education as well! I sincerely hope he wins the convention, but either way I am worried about how much damage this clash with Hillary Clinton is doing! 


Re: It's over Hillary, please leave (#22)

by e8voice on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 01:12:38 PM GMT

While she still has a chance of victory she has every right to stay in. The Geraldine Ferraro comments (and Hillary's response) were a disgrace and the continuing battle is likely to harm the Democrats but probably Obama to a greater extent (he is the transcendent candidate and this will drag him into muck-raking politics).

But to ask Hillary to step aside is a bit much. She has a 25% chance of victory if the polls start to turn in her direction (and there is some short-term evidence that is happening.) That is more than enough to keep her in the race.

http://www.e8voice.blogspot.com 


Re: It's over Hillary, please leave (#23)

by TonyHannon on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 01:18:34 PM GMT

C'mon now....I did say "please" ;-)

She has a chance but my problem is that she's reducing the chances of any Democrat winning in November.


[ Parent ]

Re: It's over Hillary, please leave (#24)

by e8voice on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 03:44:19 PM GMT

Yes, she is, I agree completely...and it's frustrating....I suspect that she is not the sort of candidate who does requests no matter how charming and polite they are ;-)

http://www.e8voice.blogspot.com 


[ Parent ]

Re: It's over Hillary, please leave (#30)

by rwendland on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 06:46:12 PM GMT

It's increasingly looking, because of the banking crisis, that this isn't the Presidency of choice to win! As a rather good NYT article on the crisis puts it:

I used to think that the major issues facing the next president would be how to get out of Iraq and what to do about health care. At this point, however, I suspect that the biggest problem for the next administration will be figuring out which parts of the financial system to bail out, how to pay the cleanup bills and how to explain what it’s doing to an angry public.

Will the American people blame "one of history’s great financial crises" on Bush & cronies, or whoever is in when the real economy and jobs takes the big hit? Maybe the strategic decision is let Hillary win this one!

NB NYT also has an excellent article on Obama's childhood and mother.


Re: It's over Hillary, please leave (#32)

by rwendland on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 03:57:22 PM GMT

Is the financial crisis good for Hillary's chances? Will Democrats prefer older and (perceived) more experienced hands for the forthcoming ecomomic situation?

I presume republican chances will go downhill as they take the blame. Bush&Co so nearly got away with spend&spend on a big deficit not going sour before the next election.


[ Parent ]

Re: It's over Hillary, please leave (#33)

by TonyHannon on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 04:56:58 PM GMT

Well I think it ought to help Hillary.

She has strong economic credentials (there's little amiss in her voting record) and her husband (and his advisers - many of whom are now her advisers) delivered brilliant economic competence.

I hope there are improvements to the World market before testing this theory - I don't want to lose my flat!!!


[ Parent ]

It's over Hillary, please leave | 35 comments (35 topical)