Archbishop in Sharia law PR train crash

The Archbishop of Canterbury has suggested that Muslims in the UK should have a limited Sharia court system for family/civil law arbitration, much like the UK Jewish courts (eg London Beth Din). Entirely predictably this is an ongoing PR disaster, and the tabloid editors are salivating. Gordon Brown has already rejected the suggestion.

Before leaping to criticise the idea, I suggest listening to what Rowan Williams said on The World at One at lunchtime. I think this is actually a play for more widespread voluntary civil religious courts, to arbitrate non-criminal issues between believers. I'm non-religious, but I'm not sure I'm against this. UK law recognises arbitration on civil matters, and I can't see why religious believers should not institutionalise this, as long as this is voluntary to both parties on each occasion.

It is interesting to discover Jewish court decisions are recognised by the High Court:

"Because we follow the same process as any case of arbitration, our decisions are binding in English law. Unless our decisions are unreasonable, they are recognised by the High Court." ... "This is because under English law people may devise their own way to settle a dispute before an agreed third party."

However by not having good PR advice, the CofE has probably done itself more harm with this suggestion. This episode suggests Rowan Williams is rather too academic for the short-term good of the CofE, though I respect his intellectual approach.



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Re: Archbishop in Sharia law PR train crash (#1)

But which "civil matter" would you deem appropriate for separate laws in different societies?  Divorce? Petty theft?

This is a secular country is it not? And the point of secular is that religion plays no part in government or law.

Like your "train crash" btw - but I suspect that Williams intended this furore - he likes to incite, it puts religion back on the front page.

Re: Archbishop in Sharia law PR train crash (#2)

There was an interesting point made on the Samizdata thread on this issue. A similar proposal was made in Canada and was close to becoming law. The only thing that stopped it was opposition from Moslem women's groups.

 

Re: Archbishop in Sharia law PR train crash (#3)

Most sensible people claim to be infavour of social cohesion, fostering a sense of community, shared citizenship, etc. This is what Rowan Williams claims to be trying to promote. It is lovely cuddly sentiments.

However, the ideas actually advocated by some religious figures such as Rowan Williams are in complete contrast to such sentiments. How will encouraging a different set of laws possibly help with social cohesion? If there is a problem with British Muslims not being adequately integrated with mainstream society why would we want to see increased segregation in legal affairs? Don't get me started on the barminess of preaching equality and community but then supporting the division of children into faith schools!

Rowan Williams argued that Muslims should not be forced to choose between their cultural loyalty and their loyalty to the state. Surely the dangers in such a statement are obvious to all. Why is it that religious groups should be the exceptions to the legal norms of citizenship? What good will such preferential treatment and exceptionalism do - it will only strengthen the positions of religious leaders, usually old, unelected men (such as the Archbishop of Canterbury).

Women tend to get second-class status under sharia law. 'Gay rights' is a foreign language to the self-appointed sharia experts. We should not be assuming that all Muslims are in favour of Sharia law. Unfortunately Rowan Williams will have simply encouraged Muslim zealots in their efforts to impose their will on other Muslims, plus anti-Islamic feeling in public opinion will undoubtedly increase.

The BNP will love this argument.

Re: Archbishop in Sharia law PR train crash (#5)

You're completely right.

One of the central questions of our time is how we reconcile cultural diversity with the shared sense of community needed for a properly functioning society.

Multiculturalism and rights for minorities are properly regarded as major achievements and the question is how to keep those things while having also having a sphere in which we're all part of a joint community. That sphere must, to some degree, be based on our shared institutions - the law is one of these institutions and so must be kept as something we are all equally accountable to.

Re: Archbishop in Sharia law PR train crash (#4)

I understand what you're saying rwendland, but I don't think that Williams was talking about the kind of arbitration 'courts' you're talking about.

He was very clear that he felt that making people choose between their loyalty to their culture and their loyalty to the state was wrong. Since the arbitration model (which currently exists anyway) recognises the supremacy of state law - with any decision made by arbitration that contradicts state law judged to be illegal - I don't think that could have been what he was talking about.

Re: Archbishop in Sharia law PR train crash (#6)

I agree that in the lecture he was trying to kick off new thinking about legal universalism and "loosening of the monopolistic framework", and he was certainly not making a concrete proposal for a Sharia law realisation. He does seem to want to explore the opening of space for "supplementary jurisdiction" beyond our current concept of arbitration. I find it a rather difficult lecture to comprehend at the first reading, but the direction seems to be given by the quote:

"I have been arguing that a defence of an unqualified secular legal monopoly in terms of the need for a universalist doctrine of human right or dignity is to misunderstand the circumstances in which that doctrine emerged, and that the essential liberating (and religiously informed) vision it represents is not imperilled by a loosening of the monopolistic framework."

I'm not convinced by the lecture - it would need a lot of pondering over!

On the other hand the press release and radio interview seemed to suggest religious law could fit in with the existing law of the land much like the existing Jewish courts:

"... certain provision of Sharia are already recognised in our society and under our law; so it's not as if we're bringing in an alien and rival system; we already have in this country a number of situations in which the internal law of religious communities is recognised by the law of the land  ... We have orthodox Jewish courts operating in this country legally and in a regulated way because there are modes of dispute resolution and customary provisions which apply there in the light of Talmud. It's not a new problem, not to mention the questions ... about how the consciences of Catholics, Anglicans and others who have difficulty over issues like abortion are accommodated within the Law; so the whole idea that there are perfectly proper ways in which the law of the land pays respect to custom and community; that's already there."

Hmm. He certainly has a lot of headline coverage in the morning papers, to my surprise maybe more in the serious papers than the tabloids. An effective bit of publicity, but I'll be surprised if this debate pans out in the direction he hopes.

It seems there are already many unofficial Sharia courts. Newsnight reported that quite a few Muslim marriages were not, unwisely, registered at the Registry Office. So there is little option but use these unofficial Sharia courts to sort out "divorce" details. Sounds like encouraging them to come under the arbitration framework, as much as possible, would be a good thing.

Re: Archbishop in Sharia law PR train crash (#7)

He was commenting on family law disputes, divorce, custody of children etc being settled by Sharia Law. But the problem is that even some of the solutions proposed are distasteful to a free society. And it needs to be said quite clearly; eg polygamous marriages are wrong. And if the Koran supports them, then we say the Koran is wrong. Muslims have somehow got to get their heads around that. The vast majority have and don't practice  the more distasteful aspects of the Koran, thank goodness. But there is a significant minority of fundamentalist troublemakers that do. And these are the very people creating the tensions we see on our streets today. The message has to be clear and blunt. There is no place for Sharia Law or polygamous marriage in Britain. Full Stop.

Re: Archbishop in Sharia law PR train crash (#8)

The media coverage does seem largely a train wreck, I see little support anywhere. The Sun inside spread is headlined "Williams: Victory for terrorism" within a "WHAT A BURKHA" front page. Front page headline on 5 papers, honourably the Daily Mirror is among the exceptions.

When this settles down I wonder if the Muslim community will thank Rowan Williams. Seems to me he has used this Sharia law issue to attempt to further his own religous law agenda, resulting in more negative views on our Muslim community. He would have done better to have given an academic lecture without the BBC interview and press release, and to have quietly helped guide the existing unofficial Sharia courts toward the civil law arbitration model. I wonder if Williams comprehended what a big popular story he would be creating.

Re: Archbishop in Sharia law PR train crash (#9)

The Archbishop has clearly thought deeply about this, but whilst we are a Christian country in theory, in practise we are more of a secular nation. Such a move would further divisions between cultures, not help overcome them.
I have already blogged on this, so you can read more here.

Re: Archbishop in Sharia law PR train crash (#13)

Perhaps you should go on newsnight again Paul and ask the archbishop to resign!

Re: Archbishop in Sharia law PR train crash (#10)

"This is a secular country is it not? And the point of secular is that religion plays no part in government or law."

Curlew.  What Country are you referring to?  One where the Head of State is also the Head of the Church?  One where the Head of the Government appoints the Bishops?  One where senior members of organised religion sit in Parliament and make laws?  One where there is an established church?  One where the Government spends billions on supporting schools set up to provide theological based education?

This country is not secular.  Mores the pity.  Disestablish the Church of England, remove the Bishops from the House of Lords and introduce secular education then we might be close to being a secular country.

Re: Archbishop in Sharia law PR train crash (#12)

> introduce secular education

My particular gripe here is the membership of each LA's "School Organisation Committee" which seems the permit the CofE + Catholics to block the creation/closure of primary schools in a LA. The School Organisation Committee is not a sub-committee of the LA, but an independent body formed from 4 groups:

1) 7 members of the local authority

2) 7 nominees of the Diocesan Board of Education of the Church of England

3) 7 nominees of the Bishop(s) of the Roman Catholic Church diocese in the LEA

4) 7 nominees by the Further Education Funding Council for England (who generally only vote when 16+ education is affected)

So for under-16 education the churches can block the LEA's will for reorganising schools, if they want. From my only interaction with a SOC over a school reorganisation, it seems horse-trading with the LEA goes on, but the churches have quite a bit undue power here even if they don't push it to the full.

Re: Archbishop in Sharia law PR train crash (#14)

Actually red I agee with you.  Thinking about William's lecture further, I think he fears that as the UK becomes more multi-cultural, the government will seek to avoid religious clashes by becoming more secular which is the last thing Lambeth Palace wants.

Re: Archbishop in Sharia law PR train crash (#15)

Well said.

Also, we don't have full equality at the moment under the law because the Church of England has it's own Ecclesiastical Courts which are part of the English legal system.

We need a full disestablishment of the Church in this country. No more Lords Spiritual, no more Ecclesiastical Courts, no more allowance of the Government and Parliament appointing Bishops, and no more Blasphemy Law.

Then, there can be no suggestion of certain religions being treated unfairly and the law will be applied in a secular manner for all.

Re: Archbishop in Sharia law PR train crash (#16)

What a hullaballoo! He'll have to go. And have a fighting cleric instead, to defend the faith. The trouble with Williams was that he was too much an academic and not a man of action.

Re: Archbishop in Sharia law PR train crash (#17)

It's a tough post to hold in the same way as being PM is or Manager of the England Football Team.
Williams has tried to clarify his points, unfortunatley this will take some work and it hasn't helped that one or two sections of the media have twisted this story. It's the mirror version of John Lennon's Jesus comment and he should apologise and make a short statement using layman's terms explaining the situation. Of course it would have helped if he used layman's terms at the beginning.

Re: Archbishop in Sharia law PR train crash (#18)

Listened to Sayeeda Warsi discussing this on C4 News.

Was amused to hear her say that for community cohesion and one nation it was "asolutely essential" we were all subject to the same civil and criminal british laws - she was asked "why", which stumped her twice, from her reply it sounded like it would be the end of the world if it was not so.

Good job we don't have different legal systems and laws in Scotland and England/Wales then!

Apparently she read Law at Leeds!!

Re: Archbishop in Sharia law PR train crash (#19)

Jewish people have a type of court, so why not Muslim, both are under the law of the UK and any decision taken has to be ratified in a civil court. A Muslim girl said she was married under Muslim law in a Muslim wedding, two days later they re married in a registry office to make it legal, whats wrong with that.

Seems to me Muslim are now the new Jewish people of hate, just like us disabled, every day I see something about disability coming from Labour.

Re: Archbishop in Sharia law PR train crash (#20)

Treborc, not wanting sharia law does not mean you hate muslims.

Secondly, most muslims themselves do not want sharia law implemented here.

Thirdly, as far as I'm aware, these Jewish courts are only arbitrary and can be overridden by the law at any time. Muslims can already decide things by arbitrary basis the same as anybody can. The Church of England however, does have it's own courts which are part of the legal system.

Re: Archbishop in Sharia law PR train crash (#22)

Such arrangements are only binding in the Jewish or
Muslim communities. They have no standing in English Law. If communities wish to make these ad hoc arrangements then they can. But they cannot expect that they be the law of the land. That Guardian writer was talking about 'Islamic mortgages' on radio; they are just a dodge to avoid facing up to the fact that 'interest' is still involved. If it makes the Muslim community 'happy', let the arrangement continue. But 'interest' is still involved.

Re: Archbishop in Sharia law PR train crash (#23)

The Jewish court decisions are enforcible in English law because they make sure proceedings are in accord with the Arbitration Act 1996. As the BBC says:

"Because we follow the same process as any case of arbitration, our decisions are binding in English law. Unless our decisions are unreasonable, they are recognised by the High Court." ... "This is because under English law people may devise their own way to settle a dispute before an agreed third party."

From his radio interview I though the Archbishop was encouraging other groups to follow this approach for civil matters, but it turned out from his lecture he was exploring something beyond our current concept of arbitration.