Constitution or Treaty?

The refrain, "90% of it is the same" irritates me, but we do hear it very often. It's annoying because is assumes that all words have the same power - it's a measure of the number of the words, not a qualitative measure of what they mean. Most sentences can be changed to mean something wholly different by the amendment of a single word, whether that be 10% or fewer of the words available.

Until now I haven't been terribly excercised about the issue of whether the Lisbon Treaty is actually a constitution.

However, we're in the position now where two Labour MPs face suspension from the PLP for campaigning against Labour colleagues in marginal seats on this very question. I last looked at the work of the constitutional convention in 2005 (or possibly 2004?) and it about time we had an open discussion on this based on some facts.

Here's a link to the proposed (and now dead) constitution.

Here's the Lisbon Treaty.

I'd be grateful if readers with an interest would take a look and see if any of the changes and the similarities shed light on whether the Lisbon Treaty is indeed the same as the constitution.


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Re: Constitution or Treaty? (#1)

The Foreign Affairs Select Committee says there are no material differences between the Constitution and the Lisbon Treaty.

 

Re: Constitution or Treaty? (#3)

I'm not asking the Foreign Affairs Select Committee, I'm asking Labourhome readers, whom I suspect have a higher level of intelligence than any random selection of MPs.   ;)

Re: Constitution or Treaty? (#2)

It's a Treaty. It doesn't have the trappings of a Constitution and it gives us various opt-outs and opt-ins which wouldn't have been tolerated if this was a Constitution.


Out of the 27 EU countries, only one is bothering to hold a referendum and that's only because their Constitution requires them to do so.

Re: Constitution or Treaty? (#4)

Yes, but would you mind pointing out thos opt-ins and outs or are you going to make me look into it myself?

Re: Constitution or Treaty? (#5)

I am in the process of taking a look, Alex - will take a little while longer, but for now, the FCO has posted a very useful document that shows what the Treaty of European Union will look like after the Lisbon changes have been agreed. It is at:

http://www.fco.gov.uk/Files/kfile/FCO_PDF_CM7310_ConsolidatedTreaties.pdf

and provides a good checking tool against the Lisbon document.

Re: Constitution or Treaty? (#6)

I have very little time on my hands Alex, so I apologise. But when I do have time (in the distant future), I will look into it and provide links.

Re: Constitution or Treaty? (#7)

The funny thing is that whether you believe the tory line that "the treaty is 95% identical to the Constitution" or the Labour line that "it's an ammending treaty" nether line is actually untrue as far as I can see. The reform treaty essentially takes the previous treaties, strips them down and replaces their words with those of the Constitution, with some of the chapter numbers changed. So as far as I can see it's a sort of encrypted, hard to follow version of the constitution.

 Constitution or treaty? Umm... Both!

Re: Constitution or Treaty? (#8)

This is my understanding  - it's both.

Both are clumsy claims as the sentence "It's the same" is 70% identical to the sentence: "It's not the same".

I look forward to people's research on this as it's an area I freely admit ignorance of detail.

Re: Constitution or Treaty? (#9)

Opt In's and opt outs, can be removed very easy, it takes a meeting and a discussion to remove the lot, if it was voted into being then you cannot remove the opt In's or outs until we have a discussion and then another vote if the changes are large, or in fact small, now Labour can do what they like with it.

Re: Constitution or Treaty? (#10)

The quoted percentages are meaningless from the start. Consider two sentences which are 95% the same:

1) "Because of your malicious, heinous and wicked acts which have so callously damaged the community, you will now be killed."
2) "Because of your malicious, heinous and wicked acts which have so callously damaged the community, you will now be tickled."

One word out of 20 has been changed and the meaning is profoundly different.

Re: Constitution or Treaty? (#11)

Ultimately, whether it is a constitution or not is irrelevant. It is self-amending by majority vote, so even if it isn't a constitution now, it will be once it is ratified and a majority decide to change it - which many have already said they intend to do.

I find it all rather unnerving.  

Re: Constitution or Treaty? (#13)

I find the continuing spat over whether the agreement is still a Constitution or an amenting Treaty quite superfluous. The usual politicians' response, whether about the lack of a referendum on the Maastricht Treaty (since when did we want to emulate Major's leadership?) or the specifics powers and provisions containted within the document, hit wide of the mark.

Europe is as close as Britain comes to adopting the American culture war - I imagine most people are either instinctively supportive or wary of Europe, and their reactions to actual changes are informed by this.

Regardless of the Treaty's actual status, many people in this country believe that anything popularly perceived as an encroachment on parliamentary democracy or national sovereignty should be subject to a referendum. There is no arguing this attitude exists. Moreover, many people who felt this way and voted for the Labour Party in 2005 probably thought that a Labour Government would deliver a referendum on such a change, regardless of what the document was called or its finer details.

That the Labour Party isn't going to do this, and that some people feel betrayed on this, is terribly unfortunate. I think the technical nature of the debate and the Government's justification of its decision, both of which ignore wider issues of democracy and effectively exclude the public of participation in our European policy, are also unfortunate.

Saying this as a pro-European, I believe that, if Gordon Brown believed Labour could win a referendum on the new treaty, he would probably hold one. What this says about the Government's assumption of a wider, legal and moral justification for not doing so, I wouldn't like to say.

Whatever one's views on the European Union, I think most people can argee that "business as usual", where Britain's relationship with our European partners is treated as a political football for the self-interest of the major parties, with little direct involvement by the British people, is something that needs to change if we are to build the social Europe which would justify further integration.

Re: Constitution or Treaty? (#14)

Tory Alert! (me).

I was interested to read some very reasoned comments on this thread.  That said: I think David Boothroyed is a Tory masquerading as a Labour supporter with the sole purpose of making you all look stupid. I claim my £5.

David the example of how the wording can be changed is one of the most feable arguments I have ever seen.  When they (the majoriy of the other leaders) say that the Lisbon Treaty is 96% the same, they do not mean that sentences have been altered by 4%.  The text has been cut from the constitution and pasted into the Treaty.  The 96% refers to the fact that some parts of the constitution (not many) have been dropped and others added.  What is in there is written word for word.

Tony for President eh?  Good luck in the next election if that happens. 

Re: Constitution or Treaty? (#15)

I'm making the point, and I think quite effectively, that the whole notion of a statistic is meaningless. The fact that other people may have quoted various statistics is neither here nor there: the point is meaningless whether it is mentioned in favour of the Lisbon Treaty or against it.

If there was a meaningful statistic to be had (and there isn't for reasons explained both above and below, but let us try a thought experiment) then the meaningful statistic would be the proportion of the Constitutional Treaty which is contained in the Lisbon Treaty. This calculation is one I have yet to see.

Even if the statistic was meaningful (which it isn't), and indeed even if the statistic was 100% (which it also isn't), it would still not be of assistance in the argument in support of a referendum based on previous pledges.

The reason the Constitutional Treaty was to be subject to a referendum before it was ratified was not because of its provisions, which were largely unexceptional, but because of its status. The text scrapped all existing treaties establishing the European Union to start again along largely the same grounds. That was shown by the fact that the main disputes were over symbolic issues such as the reference to a christian culture which was desired by Poland. By virtue of being a symbolic document the Constitutional Treaty acquired an importance over and above any mere routine Treaty.

By virtue of being the product of lengthy negotiation process separate from the normal Inter-Governmental Conferences, under ex-President Giscard d'Estaing, the Constitutional Treaty was longer in the gestation than any of the Treaties that had gone before.

By virtue of being subject to referendums in many member states, the Constitutional Treaty would (had it been approved) have acquired the mandate of a far wider spectrum of opinion within Europe.

All these considerations made for a document which would have very great importance and which would thereby acquire considerable staying power. Had the Constitutional Treaty been approved it would have set the framework for the European Union for several generations.

It was not approved. Instead it failed to meet with the expectations of enough of Europe to be approved as the blueprint of government. So the member states brought back some minor changes made in it, which all had approved and which were in themselves unexceptional, and put them together with other changes in a mere routine amending Treaty of the type which comes along every so often anyway. That was Lisbon, important because it makes life run smoother in the European Union but not one of the historic treaties of our era. The framework established by Lisbon might last, but it could quite easily all be scrapped and changed in two years' time - as could the remaining existing Treaties which were left unamended by Lisbon. It may surprise you to know that I would favour a great change in the way the European Union operates.

But getting back to the Constitutional Treaty and its relationship to Lisbon, it really doesn't matter how many of the changes in Lisbon are there in the Constitutional Treaty; it's an utter irrelevance because they are merely minor tinkering.

It is striking that the burden of the argument for a referendum is always placed on this misleading comparison between two documents of quite different status rather than on making the claim either that the Lisbon Treaty is making profound changes to European governance (which it isn't), or that these changes are to the disadvantage of the United Kingdom (which they aren't) or both.

Re: Constitution or Treaty? (#16)

Very well said David

Re: Constitution or Treaty? (#17)

This is just flannel. The new treaty is just the old Constitution dressed up. Everybody knows it and many non-British politicians admit it openly.

 

As for "the Lisbon Treaty is making profound changes to European governance (which it isn't), or that these changes are to the disadvantage of the United Kingdom (which they aren't) or both" why don't you put the case to the British people and let them decide? That's what you promised to do.

Re: Constitution or Treaty? (#18)

Can you guarantee that anyone voting in such a referendum would actually have such issues in their minds, and would not let them be swayed by irrelevant considerations such as whether the UK should be in the EU in the first place?


For that reason I have suggested an alternative way of formulating a referendum question on Lisbon:


Put an X in the box of your choice.


[ ] The United Kingdom should be a member of the European Union based on the Treaty of Rome, as amended by the Single European Act, the Maastricht Treaty, the Amsterdam Treaty, the Nice Treaty and the Lisbon Treaty.


[ ] The United Kingdom should be a member of the European Union based on the Treaty of Rome, as amended by the Single European Act, the Maastricht Treaty, the Amsterdam Treaty and the Nice Treaty.

Re: Constitution or Treaty? (#19)

Can you guarantee that anyone voting in such a referendum would actually have such issues in their minds, and would not let them be swayed by irrelevant considerations such as whether the UK should be in the EU in the first place?

 

No, of course I can't, but that's part of democracy: you have to allow voters to make up their minds on the issues that matter to them. Part of the problem is that some people don't feel that the anti-EU case is treated fairly; if it were then such people would not feel the need to protest in other ways.

 

I think (IMHO) the fairest approach would be to hold the Lisbon Treaty referendum on the basis that whatever the result, the UK would hold a referendum five years later on EU membership itself. That would defuse the issue and allow time for people to experience the reality, rather than relying on scare stories which might or might not turn out to be true. There is even precedent for this; Labour in 1976 held such a referendum in which politicians from all parties were allowed to campaign on the basis of conscience.

 

 

Re: Constitution or Treaty? (#21)

"but that's part of democracy: you have to allow voters to make up their minds on the issues that matter to them"

That is one form of democracy.  However, the form we have is that we elect leaders who then make the decisions for us.

Where do referenda end?  Shall we bring back hanging, torture paedophiles and all be given the right to "clip round the ear" any child we think is a bit cheeky?

For those who call for referenda I am reminded of the Disraeli quote "I must follow the people.  Am I not their leader?".  What we need is proper honest leadership by our party, setting out why we went into this treaty, what the advantages and disadvantages are state that if the tories want a referenda then they can have one at the next election where they can be the party wanting out of Europe and we can be the party of staying in Europe.

Our current stance is all too shifty.

Re: Constitution or Treaty? (#20)

Another excellent point David - I feel I ought to form your fan club

Re: Constitution or Treaty? (#22)

I've been having fun with this - when Tories say "I think we should have a referendum on the Treaty" I ask three questions:

(1) If we have a referendum would you vote against the Treaty?

To which the answer is invariably "yes, I oppose the treaty"

(2) Would you still vote against it if it meant we had to leave the EU altogether? 

To which their eyes light up and they say "yes, we should leave the EU"

and

(3) Which clauses in the Treaty do you particularly object to?

Where they become very vague and either say "all of it" or admit that they haven't actually read it.

So for any Tories (or I Want A Referendum traitors out there), here is a summary of what was in the Constitution and the main points of the Treaty:

Overview

The Lisbon Treaty is a tidying up of existing EU structures. It does not, in itself, confer any additional powers to the EU. The UK has negotiated several important opt-outs. It is in the UK's national interest to have the treaty ratified IF we want to stay in the EU. I would argue it is massively in our national interest to remain members of the EU. We can opt out of the Treaty - or specific parts of it - without leaving the EU.

The proposed Constitution took the EU to another level, albeit a small step beyond where we are today, by attempting to create a permanent guiding structure for the organisation with some of the paraphenelia of a state. You can't opt out of a constitution, it's the rules of membership of a club.

Here are the main differences, simplified: 

(a) The Constitution talked about an official EU flag, an EU anthem and EU motto. All these have been dropped.

(b) The Constitution talked about EU laws instead of Regulations and Directives. This idea has been dropped. 

(c) The Constitution merged the two main EU Treaties (Treaty on European Union and Treaty Establishing a European Community) as well as the Charter of Fundamental Rights, elevating them all to a fundamental legal status. The Treaty on the other hand amends them all but keeps them separate (and amendable).

(d) in particular the Treaty was amended following pressure from the UK to make sure that the Charter does not have a higher status than national laws. 

(e) The Constitution envisaged a "High Representative" to act as Foreign Minister for the EU. The Treaty changed this to make them responsible only for the external relations of the Union itself, not to act on behalf of Member States. The UK pushed for this change.

(f) Both the Constitution and the Treaty gave more power to the EU Parliament - making the EU more democratically accountable. However the Treaty goes further by giving NATIONAL parliaments a greater role in the implementation and preparation of EU decisions. The Dutch insisted on this one.

(g) The Consitution envisaged the EU having a much greater role in security and defence policies and in justice, police and freedom policies. The UK objected and in the Treaty got an opt out from the security and defence changes and retained a veto on justice and police policies.

In both the Constitution and the Treaty, the only areas the EU has real power over are: customs, economic policy for the Euro area (does not apply to the UK), competition rules for the internal market, common fisheries policy and international trade negotiations. Everything else is the responsibility of national governments with the EU playing a secondary or joint role.

What the anti-Treaty people won't tell you is the following:

(a) The Treaty gives more powers to the European Parliament and to National Parliaments and takes them away from unelected officials.

(b) The Treaty stops the important business of Europe to promote trade etc being hijacked by small countries and Eastern European new member countries. We don't want our proposals being blocked by Poland.

(c) The Treaty makes it harder for new members to join the EU and gives them a lot more hoops to jump through

(d) For the first time the Treaty enshrines our right to leave the EU and how that would happen.

(e) The proposed "President of the Council" gives someone the job of banging heads together to get stuff done at EU Council of Ministers level - it's not the "President of Europe" job that has been touted in the papers but more like Secretary General of the Commonwealth. 

Here are the lines I use against the Tories:

You can't trust the Tories on Europe - they are split on it down the middle.

The Tories talk tough on Europe but when in power they blindly and incompetently sign Britain up without a vote.

All the main changes to Britain's relationship with the EU have been pushed through by the Tories while Labour - although in favour of the EU in principle - has been much more cautious and has given people a say.

Edward Heath joined the Common Market (European Economic Community) in 1973 without a referendum.

Margaret Thatcher signed the Single European Act in 1986 without a referendum.

Thatcher and Major took us into the disastrous Exchange Rate Mechanism - intended to be the first step in the UK joining the Euro - in 1990. 

John Major signed the Maastricht Treaty ( a far more fundamental Treaty than Lisbon) in 1992 without a referendum. 

Incidentally the Tory policy on the Euro was "wait and see", ie: we'll join when we can get away with it.

By contrast, Labour offers people a voice:

In 1975 we had the only referendum we have ever had on the EU - thanks to Labour's Harold Wilson 

In 1997  Labour promised there would be no joining the Euro without the "triple lock" of meeting all the economic criteria, a vote in parliament and a referendum. The economic criteria have never been met and so we haven't even thought about taking it further. Our policy is clear - we won't join unless it's in Britain's interests and even then not without a referendum first.

Labour's 2005 election promise was also clear. We won't sign up to any fundamental changes in our relationship with the EU without a referendum. So we would have had one on the Constitution if the French hadn't rejected it first. The Treaty isn't a fundamental change in this country's relationship with the EU, it's an internal change in how the EU itself works.

Finally, this Government has actually been criticised for having too many referenda ! Since 1997 we have held 5 -  on a Scottish Parliament, on a Welsh Assembly, on a London Mayor, on the Good Friday Agreement in Northern Ireland and on Regional Government for the North East. The last one voted "no" which despite a lot of support for the idea within Government killed off the devolution proposals across England.

So don't tell me we are anti-referendum. 

 

 

 

Re: Constitution or Treaty? (#23)

Well, I have set out what I believe are the essential similarities between the Constitution and the Lisbon Treaty - and why the arguments that they are so different that there is no need to satisfy any legitimate expectation contained in Labour's manifesto in 2005 are, in my view, mistaken. I also deal with the 'tidying-up' argument - which again I think is nonsence. Have a look and tell me what you think - http://evanprice.blogspot.com