How loyal are Labour members to the Socialist international?

jkitleft Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 07:32:04 PM GMT Print-friendly version Facebook

My loyalty will always, ALWAYS remain with my socialist sister parties, no matter how much I dislike the candidate. In America I will of course support the Democrats.

As an internationalist, (and as sad as this is) I support all my affiliate parties in elections, whether in Australia or Sweden, or New Zealand or Denmark, and currently I'm supporting the NDP in Canada.

But many Labour members have supported centre-right candidates abroad. I will give two examples where I didn't like the candidates, but still supported them:





I don't like Segolene Royal, and I absolutely agree France needs reform. But I didn't want a Thatcherite to make a bad situation worse. Actually, I agreed with Sarkozy that the special treatment for train drivers needed to stop, and I largely agree with Thatcher's trade union reforms, but I would have wanted them to be balanced with industrial democracy, and perhaps some limited secondary picketing. I think the right-to-buy is excellent, but only when balanced with re-investment in social housing.

Sometimes, the PS is too left-wing for me, especially with the strong dose of protectionism, which I find abhorrent, as we need free trade to help reinforce foreign aid budgets. I personally wanted Bernard Kouchner to run for president, and Fadela Amara as PM, as they have been great influences upon me. Yet, even when Sarkozy appointed these two, even when I didn't like Sego, and had some respect for what Sarkozy rightly saw as the need for reform, I supported Sego.

In Germany, I think Gerhard Schroeder was a crook, and I like the pragmatic Angela Merkel. Even when the SDP is now fragmenting, with a debate worryingly similar to the debate we had in the '80's, and even when they don't have someone I can clearly support, I still would prefer them to win, instead of the SDP.

That's how loyal I am. How loyal are you guys?



tags: , , (all tags)

Display: Sort:
How loyal are Labour members to the Socialist international? | 40 comments (40 topical)

Re: How loyal are you? (#1)

by otware on Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 03:20:11 AM GMT

I would always support Socialist International/PES affilates instead of the 'conservative' candidate in any foreign election. But I will say that in some places politics is incredibly fragmented: take Italy for example. Who the current PES/SI affiliate is I have no idea, but I broadly back the Partito della Rifondazione Comunista ('Communist Refoundation Party'), and was bitterly disappointed when they lost out big time in the elections this year. I wish they had stayed as part of the alliance with the centre-left instead of going it alone with other hard-left groups.

In Israel I have very mixed feelings about the Israeli Labor Party. As a Jew, I have reservations about the extent to which they co-operate with Kadima and I dislike a lot of the policy of the government. However I am not sure there is any credible leftist alternative. Of course if it is a choice between Labor, Kadima and Likud I would back Labor.

Basically my feeling is that sometimes SI/PES affiliates are too right wing for my liking. But I agree that Sego was a crap candidate. I found it very hard to like her, she was far too right wing for me. 


Re: How loyal are you? (#3)

by NorthernMonkey on Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 03:40:05 AM GMT

But I agree that Sego was a crap candidate. I found it very hard to like her, she was far too right wing for me.

What?! She wanted to 'tighten up' the 35 hour week for goodness sake! She couldn't have been any less right-wing if she tried.

France would have ground to a halt if she'd have won.

You're not Arthur Scargill's son are you?!


[ Parent ]

Re: How loyal are you? (#4)

by e10rifles on Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 09:56:13 AM GMT

What's wrong with the 35 hour week?


[ Parent ]

Re: How loyal are you? (#9)

by Prbo on Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 01:53:57 PM GMT

!  Which sector of the economy do you work in, btw?


[ Parent ]

Re: How loyal are you? (#11)

by e10rifles on Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 01:59:57 PM GMT

Further education.

I work a strict 35 hour week and would defend anyone else who seeks to gain the same for themselves.

I certainly wouldn't have any objection to legislation to make it universal.


[ Parent ]

Re: How loyal are you? (#12)

by NorthernMonkey on Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 02:10:17 PM GMT

Erm..probably because the vast majority of people in this country work far longer than that.

I don't think I've ever had one week where I've worked 35 hours or less, and in most jobs, a business simply couldn't survive with such extreme time limits.

That's the equivalent of 9am-4pm on weekdays - schoolchildren work harder than that!


[ Parent ]

Re: How loyal are you? (#13)

by e10rifles on Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 02:58:50 PM GMT

No, it's the equivalent of 9 - 5 including an hour for lunch.

Have you got the stats on what hours people work? Not that it matters.

Can you explain what is wrong with the principle of a 35 hour week? A business which can't survive by employing its staff for a decent working week doesn't deserve to survive.


[ Parent ]

Re: How loyal are you? (#14)

by Prbo on Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 03:52:42 PM GMT

Nothing's wrong with the principle of 35 hours - I'd love it.  Unfortunately, the dictates of most private sector jobs mean that it's just not possible.  If your clients need something doing over the weekend, or you've got to stay late to do something for the next day, you can't just say 'sorry, I'm breaching my work-time limits.'  You get the job done. 

When it comes to economic power, it's what separates France from America.  I'd love to have lower hours, and I know it's partly a personal choice, but it's a fantasy to say that the UK could switch to a 35hr week and maintain its current strength.


[ Parent ]

Re: How loyal are you? (#15)

by e10rifles on Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 04:07:21 PM GMT

If your clients need something doing over the weekend, it's up to the boss to do it him or herself, or offer overtime, or refuse the business if it's not configured to cope with the work.

FWIW UK overall productivity without a 35-hour week is behind France's (and the USA's) and UK productivity per hour is also behind both of them...but France is ahead of the USA.


[ Parent ]

Re: How loyal are you? (#16)

by Prbo on Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 05:49:25 PM GMT

Again, I admire your principles, but clearly you don't have much experience of working in the private sector!  You can't have an attitude like that - any firm adopting those practices would simply fold and have its work taken over by rivals. 

If firms like mine offered overtime, they'd go bankrupt in a matter of weeks.  We work on the principle of competition and profit motive - if we can't do it, someone else will.  It works on the national level, too.  That's why unionised workforces in France don't tend to attract too much international investment when they can go to places like China...


[ Parent ]

Re: How loyal are you? (#17)

by e10rifles on Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 06:35:25 PM GMT

Again, I admire your principles, but clearly you don't have much experience of working in the private sector!  You can't have an attitude like that - any firm adopting those practices would simply fold and have its work taken over by rivals. 

Thanks, but don't tell me how much experience I have in the private sector. The private sector was the only work I'd ever had until two years ago.

The point about having its work taken over by rivals is nonsense because we're talking about a nationally-legislated 35 hour week so all companies will find themselves in the same situation. If there is demand for your product, you will be able to charge enough more for it to cover the overtime or extra staff costs.

If firms like mine offered overtime, they'd go bankrupt in a matter of weeks.  We work on the principle of competition and profit motive - if we can't do it, someone else will.  It works on the national level, too.  That's why unionised workforces in France don't tend to attract too much international investment when they can go to places like China...

Again, not if all firms were in the same position. The worst you can argue is that you'd see a temporary increases in prices as the costs are passed on.

The vast majority of work done in this country does not operate on a national level. Again, look at the productivity levels in France compared to here, and watch what happens in China over the next few years as well.

 


[ Parent ]

Re: How loyal are you? (#25)

by Sibboleth on Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 08:26:26 PM GMT

Levels of unionisation in France are actually at lower levels than in the United States...


[ Parent ]

Re: How loyal are you? (#18)

by NorthernMonkey on Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 06:45:26 PM GMT

Can you explain what is wrong with the principle of a 35 hour week? A business which can't survive by employing its staff for a decent working week doesn't deserve to survive.

So you'd have 90% of private businesses in this country collapse then?

A 35 hour week is not a reasonable demand to place on a business. If you had your way, nobody would be allowed to work after 5pm or on weekends (provided they work 9-5 in the week, although it should be noted that often the lunch hour is included in number of hours worked).

Imagine telling the finance sector in the City, where many people work 70 hours plus in a week, that they would now not be allowed to work more than 35 hours in a week. The whole place would collapse.

Imagine telling surgeons, ambulance crews, firefighters etc. that they could no longer more than 35 hours a week - who would replace them? And how many more billions would it cost?

And how many people would leave the country to work elsewhere where things are less restrictive (just as they did in France)?

I don't think you've really thought this one through.


[ Parent ]

Re: How loyal are you? (#20)

by jkitleft on Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 07:01:52 PM GMT

That is not true, for the 57th time. People can work more than 35 hours, it is called overtime.

In France, the 35 hour week is OFFERED to around half of workers. No one is saying nurses or doctors should work for only 35 hours.


[ Parent ]

Re: How loyal are you? (#21)

by NorthernMonkey on Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 07:48:50 PM GMT

Well no, I'm afraid that's not true either.

There were absolute limits on the amount of overtime that French people could work in one year, which roughly worked out as little more than 3 hours a week.

So effectively, they had a maximum 38 hour week. So yes, the French government were saying that people couldn't work any more than an average of 38 hours per week.


[ Parent ]

Re: How loyal are you? (#29)

by e10rifles on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 10:12:39 AM GMT

No, for the reasons given in another posting, as you'd know if you bothered to read.

What would be the cost to the finance sector if employees only worked 35 hours a week? More staff would need to be employed. Given that staff costs are very low and profits are very high, there's no chance of anything collapsing.

Most NHS, ambulance and firefighting staff already have a limited week. If more work is needed, we pay for more employees. That already exists.

If people want to leave the country to work more, good luck to them. I'll even pay for their bus fare to the airport.


[ Parent ]

Re: How loyal are you? (#30)

by Prbo on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 10:48:47 AM GMT

That's the kind of can-do attitude that's made this country great!  Want to work hard and contribute to your country's economic growth?  Then bugger off somewhere else, we don't want your kind here.  Brilliant!


[ Parent ]

Re: How loyal are you? (#31)

by e10rifles on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 10:53:47 AM GMT

First off, your concept of economic growth is a load of crap.

Secondly, competition between nations is, or should be, anathema to all socialists.

Thirdly, working hard in this case is stealing someone else's job.


[ Parent ]

Re: How loyal are you? (#32)

by Prbo on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 12:25:58 PM GMT

I'm note quite sure whether you're being serious or not...but I'll assume you are.  It's difficult to know where to start!  You don't really seem to have much of a handle on how the world works - competition is a fact, whether you like it or not - how do you propose to eliminate it - the UN?  Nato?  The EU?

Working hard is something that should be encouraged, and not seen as a zero-sum game.  It sounds like you're reading off a copy of the 1983 Labour manifesto - fine in theory, but useless when it comes to dealing with the problems of the real world. 


[ Parent ]

Re: How loyal are you? (#33)

by e10rifles on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 12:34:54 PM GMT

I understand perfectly well how the world works, thanks. As a socialist I want to change it but whatever means are open to me. In the meantime I oppose anything which sets one worker against another in the name of competing for 'efficiency' savings or the like.

Working hard is something that should be encouraged - ah yes, that old Presbyterian nonsense. Work should be to provide what society needs and wants, not an end in itself or to enrich company owners. There is no gold standard for working hours. We used to only have one day off a week, then one and a half, now most people have two. Who's to say in the future we won't all work a four day week?

Sounds like you're reading off the neo-liberal globalisation manifesto of the last thirty years which got us into the mess we're in. It's a shame only a few million prescient people who voted Labour in 1983 foresaw the crap to come.


[ Parent ]

Re: How loyal are you? (#34)

by Prbo on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 01:42:04 PM GMT

ok, so what it boils down to is that you don't like capitalism and you'd like it replaced with marxism style collectivisation - is that right?


[ Parent ]

Re: How loyal are you? (#35)

by e10rifles on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 02:03:06 PM GMT

More or less, yes. Maybe you can start a thread about the details of it if you want to discuss further, as we're getting a bit off topic.


[ Parent ]

Re: How loyal are you? (#36)

by Prbo on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 02:35:40 PM GMT

No, that's fine - just wanted to clear up where you're coming from!  Explains our differences well...don't think we're going to agree, so probably best to save the space... :-)


[ Parent ]

Re: How loyal are you? (#5)

by Anonymous X on Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 10:49:17 AM GMT

Interestingly, there's a second SI party in Israel, Meretz-Yachad. In terms of Italy, the affiliates were Democratici di Sinistra (DS) and the Italian Democratic Socialists (SDI). DS has since merged with La Margherita and numerous micro-parties to become Partito Democratico, which remains the main centre-left party. It was the leader of PD, Walter Veltroni, who rejected an electoral alliance with other parties, preferring to run alone and condemning itself to opposition. Meanwhile, SDI and smaller groups merged to refound Partito Socialista, but having been cut loose by Veltroni, failed to re-enter parliament in the election earlier this year.


[ Parent ]

Re: How loyal are Labour (#2)

by NorthernMonkey on Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 03:37:29 AM GMT

I'm always loyal to Labour in the UK.

But frankly, I couldn't give a monkeys about abroad.

If the left-wing candidate is sensible, then I'll always support them (like the Democrats in the US, the Liberals in Canada or Labour in Australia). But on the Continent, where the left-wing is often a bit more 'unreformed', I'm prepared to give the other side a look-in, especially when their countries are desperately in need of reform.

You could never say Sarkozy and Merkel have been 'Thatcherite' in their actions - they've both been pretty timid. In reality, both are them are to the left of Gordon Brown in many ways, so it's hardly surprising that so many Labour supporters over here are willing to back them.


Re: How loyal are Labour (#6)

by Anonymous X on Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 10:55:59 AM GMT

The (federal) Liberals in Canada aren't really that left-wing. More a centrist party, in terms of Canada, and rather chameleonic (like the British Liberals?). Some of the provincial Liberal parties are centre-right in fact. The NDP, part of SI, are the centre-left party nominally, and I'd vote for them even if I personally find their presentation and 'cultural left' wackiness rather irritating.


[ Parent ]

Re: How loyal are Labour (#10)

by Prbo on Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 01:54:50 PM GMT

Sound comments NM - if we aren't able to vote there, it doesn't matter in the slightest what we think.


[ Parent ]

Re: How loyal are Labour (#19)

by Sensible Comrade on Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 06:48:37 PM GMT

B-O-R-I-N-G! (you saying you "couldn't give a monkeys about abroad")

Considering the importance of the European Union, and the fact that our Labour MEPs work with their colleagues in the PES, I'd say all intelligent Labour Party members should take a great deal of interest in European politics, at the very least.

The US is still the leading superpower and the results of the upcoming election will have consequences for every human being on the planet.


Think global, act local! 


[ Parent ]

Re: How loyal are Labour (#22)

by NorthernMonkey on Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 07:53:01 PM GMT

When I said "I don't give a monkeys about abroad", I wasn't saying that I have no interest in foreign politics! I was saying that I don't blindly follow a party in another country just because they claim to be part of the same 'group' as Labour.

Different countries have completely different political spectrums, so it seems silly to me to class all left-wing parties across the globe as the same. They are not.

That's why you have some Tories backing Obama, and some Labourites backing Sarkozy.


[ Parent ]

Re: How loyal are Labour (#28)

by jkitleft on Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 10:01:04 PM GMT

But look at Sarko for instance. He's not a Margaret Thatcher. Thatcher had her own brand of f**k-off style politics, which she was determined to get through, even if it annoyed her own party. FWIW, I agree with Sarkozy's position on say, making sure train drivers aren't treated specially above other workers, or deregulating the amount of taxis that are allowed (it worked for planes, allowing fares to crash, and extending oppertunity to the many not the few).

I don't think a 35 hour week should limit Sunday shopping. I think it should only apply to certain industries, and overtime regulations should be lifted.

Similarly, I have issues with Sarkozy being a "reformer" in terms of the EU. The EU's most important goal is to be a power that can challenge the US and China, India, or perhaps even Brazil, in the next century. Only Europe can fight effectively to spread democracy, and go green. Look how much we have acheived through multilateral negotiations, rather than through a unilateralist foreign policy, by cajoling Turkey into becoming a democracy. The entrance of Turkey into the EU will give the organisation more weight and significance. Sego was far more of a reformer on that particular policy.

Look how Sarko has that old-fashioned conservative opposition to free trade. I am willing to concede that developing countries may need protectionism to build themselves up (based on the South Korea model). However, currently, only these countries can be blackmailed by the corporatist hacks at the World Bank, but we face no pressure to drop the obscene CAP. Iraq could be in a much better state, if the democratic desire for a social democratic constitution had been allowed, and if vast swathes of Iraqi young men weren't unemployed due to neo-liberal policies of the World Bank.

Yet who blocked the WTO's suggestion to scrap our subsidies? Sarkozy. The idea of Sarko being a reformer is like the myth of McCain is a maverick.


[ Parent ]

Re: How loyal are Labour (#24)

by Sibboleth on Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 08:24:46 PM GMT

Tut, tut...

"But frankly, I couldn't give a monkeys about abroad."

Why ever not? Surely internationalism is fundamental to Socialism, even moderate Socialism, at an intellectual level. Hugh Gaitskell turned up at the founding conference of the NDP in Canada.

"...If the left-wing candidate is sensible, then I'll always support them (like the Democrats in the US, the Liberals in Canada..."

Uh, huh...

"But on the Continent, where the left-wing is often a bit more 'unreformed'..."

Myth. Bad Godesberg was in 1959. In fact, most of our sister parties in Europe abandoned Utopia from their official platforms before we did... I think only the SPÖ hasn't... though they actually changed their name (the "S" used to stand for Socialist, rather than Social Democratic).

"...especially when their countries are desperately in need of reform..."

Mmm... I don't see much in the way of "reform" coming from Sarkozy or Merkel. 

"In reality, both are them are to the left of Gordon Brown in many ways"

Only if you subscribe to the absurd, American, idea that "the state" = "left".


[ Parent ]

Re: How loyal are Labour (#37)

by Redflag85 on Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 09:00:14 PM GMT

"their countries are desperately in need of reform."

What's meant by 'reform'? As a leftwinger, notions of 'reform' and 'progress' basically mean a leftwards shift. If these parties are better at getting leftward shifts than ours, it is us who are unreformed...

 Second but more fundamental point: don't you have any appreciation for internationalism? What, in your view, is the pont of organisations like the socialist international?


[ Parent ]

Re: How loyal are Labour members (#7)

by e10rifles on Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 11:04:24 AM GMT

Incidentally, both Peter Mandelson and Denis MacShane were guilty of supporting Sarkozy against Royal in private if not in public. The filthy rightwing gits.


Re: How loyal are Labour members (#8)

by repub on Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 01:07:45 PM GMT

Who leads up on our links with the PES and SI?

Cook used to be President of the PES but who has been our main contact since?

McShane and Mandelson obviously have an interest, Murphy and now Flint as Europe ministers, but who is leading on the centre-left to make that connection now Cook has gone? John Austin seems to be on a lot of European bodies, but isn't he retiring?

And who will be attending the PES Council in Madrid in December on behalf of the Labour Party. I understand the party's international manager has moved on...


[ Parent ]

Re: Internationalism (#23)

by Sibboleth on Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 08:09:46 PM GMT

On a personal level I'm utterly, absurdly, loyal to most of our sister parties; I was genuinely relieved at the SPÖ's victory in the Austrian elections (even though the party's share of the vote was depressingly low and even though the far-right did depressingly well) and I will be genuinely delighted if (if, if, if...) the NDP manage to make a significant breakthrough in the Canadian elections in a weeks time.

The only exceptions I would make are for parties that are members of the Socialist International, but which don't conform to democratic norms. And there are a few too many of those.

"In Germany, I think Gerhard Schroeder was a crook, and I like the pragmatic Angela Merkel. Even when the SDP is now fragmenting, with a debate worryingly similar to the debate we had in the '80's, and even when they don't have someone I can clearly support, I still would prefer them to win, instead of the SDP."

SPD not SDP. Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands not Sozial Demokratische Partei.


Re: Internationalism (#26)

by otware on Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 09:03:52 PM GMT

The SPD/SDP thing always gets me. Trust them to turn 'social democratic' into one word. Or maybe we took it and made it 2 words? probably more likely actually...


[ Parent ]

Re: Internationalism (#38)

by Anonymous X on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 12:06:49 AM GMT

Incidentally the Germans do not use 'social democratic' and 'socialist' interchangeably like we tend to. My girlfriend's family saw the "democratic socialist" part of my Labour card, were confused, and I had to explain how we're a SPD type party, not an anticapitalist one like their PDS/Linke.


[ Parent ]

Re: How loyal are Labour (#27)

by otware on Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 09:09:36 PM GMT

How about the Netherlands? I would of course support the Partij van de Arbeid to win a general election outright, but I dislike the fact that they are part of a centre-right coalition government. I must confess to being pleased with gains made by the Socialistische Partij and GroenLinks in recent elections, and would ideally like to see a PvdA - SP - GL coalition government in the Netherlands.


Re: How loyal are Labour (#39)

by Anonymous X on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 12:15:25 AM GMT

PvdA have a similar problem to the SPD. Shifted rightwards, and have lost a lot of support to far left parties (SP and Die Linke respectively), which will cause serious problems for both in terms of being able to form governments, unfortunately.


[ Parent ]

Re: How loyal? (#40)

by Anonymous X on Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 12:15:50 AM GMT

Going back to the original post, I'm a solidly centre-left guy, most if not all the major centre-left parties internationally are in SI, so they would (and do, from afar) get my support. In terms of Germany, I didn't like Schroeder, but I without hesitation support the SPD over the CDU.CSU - incidentally I don't see the contradiction in supporting a party overall even if I dislike the individual that happens to lead that party. As for Merkel's government, that it is a grand coalition keeps a brake on the rightwards shift that an CDU/CSU-FDP government would no doubt enact.


How loyal are Labour members to the Socialist international? | 40 comments (40 topical)