Top work by the Boris-huggers at the Evening Standard

Faced with the problem that all representative polls on the Mayoral elections give Ken a lead among Londoners, Boris Johnson's supporters at the Standard have come up with a new solution – do an unrepresentative one!

So today's Standard features a poll of "influential people".  And surprise surprise!  The poll found that the majority of these great and good types back Boris – by 45% to 37%.

How these "influential" people were selected is a mystery. A poll becomes representative, and therefore meaningful, by 'weighting' the people responding.  But this group of bussinessmen, media types and the cultural industries, are by their nature totally unrepresentative.

Who knows why YouGov agreed to do this poll in the first place – not exactly a credibility booster.  Still, it must be a worry for Team Bozza that they can only get a few points' lead even in a rigged poll.

Display: Sort:

Re: Top work by the Boris-huggers (#1)

Tonight's Channel 4 documentary was a disgusting hour of Conservative propaganda. I hope Ken's got his lawyers looking carefully through it because the programme couldn't have been more biased and manipulated if it tried.


It accused Livingstone of being homophobic when he is anything but (remember Boris voted for Section 28 and attacked Labour for 'promoting' homosexuality at schools).


The basic attacks on Livingstone revolved around the facts that he invites controversial people (like Chavez) to London. Well so what? Inviting Chavez does not make an ounce of difference to Londoners lives.


The Congestion Charge has been an enormous success because of the extra funding it provides to public transport. The Development Agency has been an enormous success in terms of providing regeneration.


Livingstone helped to win the Olympics for London and he's made the capital a more, tolerant, progressive and prosperous city to live in.


Boris Johnson's a blithering, racist, homophobic idiot who you wouldn't trust to run a corner shop let alone a major world city.


I hope Channel 4 dedicate an hour long documentary to Boris Johnson's sordid dealings involving Darius Guppy. Somehow I doubt they will.

Re: Top work by the Boris-huggers (#2)

Agree with Northern Monkey.

I think its disgusting that the Political Editor of the New Statesman is working in an alliance with the Conservatives to defeat the Labour candidate. Particularly when you look at Boris's comments on race, sexuality, the climate.

Who calls the shots in the New Statesman office? Has Kampfner commented on this? One would assume the NS wants a Labour victory or am I being naive?

Let's be honest Ken is the most popular candidate Labour can stand - he is probably the only Labour candidate who could win - and Martin Bright is defecting to the Tories.

Re: Top work by the Boris-huggers (#3)

That docu was horrendous. Oh, and I'm goingto  cancel my subscription to New Stateman at the first opportunity tomorrow, and I hope many others do too.

Re: (#4)

Errr, Labour use these sort of polls all the time. Gordon Brown has used a company called Opinion Leader Research to find 'influential people' to say how wonderful he is.

And many Londoners are worried about dodgy dealings in City Hall, and the Mayor's own foreign policy, which does not follow our national policy at all.

Why poor (properly poor in that they work 14 hours a day just to get enough to eat) people in Venezuela should help to subsidise our buses, God only knows. 

 

Re: Top work (#5)

"Martin Bright is defecting to the Tories"

Are you guys able to take any criticism at all, without resorting to throwing your toys out of the pram like this?  Good to see free speech alive and well in the left.

Re: Top work (#7)

We'll happily accept criticism if that parasite Martin Bright plays fair and does another hour long documentary examining the dodgy affairs of Boris Johnson and Darius Guppy and closely examines Boris' racism and homophobia just weeks before the election.

Fair?

Re: Top work (#14)

If they weren't racist, why has he now apologised for making them in the first place?

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/gla/story/0,,2245284,00.html

Re: Top work (#24)

He did - he apologised on Monday.

Re: Top work (#27)

I wasn't basing it on that link. He did apologise and rightly so. Now he should do the decent thing and withdraw from the race and allow the Tories to put forward a candidate who isn't racist or homophobic (difficult, I know).

Re: Top work (#22)

Utter garbage! And you have the cheek to pretend that you're a Labour supporter on the other thread.

Boris Johnson used the word 'piccaninny' because that's how he sees them - he wasn't being ironic or sarcastic. And it's so desperate of the Conservative party to try and spin it that way. Most normal people would never even dream of using a word like that. And for him to suggest that's how Blair or the Queen sees black children is not only disrespectful but it's downright wrong - he is the racist, not them.

He's also homophobic given that he voted for Section 28 and only in 2000 did he attack the government for promoting homosexuality in schools. He also said two men getting married was comparable to a marriage between a man and a dog.


May god have mercy on London if they vote for that awful Johnson. He'd be a national embarrassment on an international stage - particularly in the run up to the Olympics.

Re: Top work (#29)

I know you chaps are going to heartily disagree, but I find the way you call people 'racist' and 'homophobic' really quite disturbing.  If someone disagrees with your stance on moral issues like this, is it not possible to accept them without resorting to hyperbolic language which does nothing to help genuine debate?  Just because someone disagrees with a liberal stance on homosexuality, that doesn't make them some kind of repugnant human being.  It's called freedom of thought, and thank goodness it still exists.  I happen to be against the promotion of homosexuality in schools - does that make me homophobic? 

Being in support of tolerance and inclusivity, which I am, means accepting a diversity of opinions, whethe I agree with them or not.  The alternative is to try and impose a bland uniformity of views, with people who don't agree with you labelled with the suffix 'ist' after whatever alleged thought crime they have committed.

Sorry to be harsh, but I really find myself frightened by reading comments on this site and seeing the true heart of the Labour party on show.

Re: Top work (#36)

Well surely if you and/or the Tory party can't see the diference between the love of two consenting male or female adults and an adult having sex with an animal then you really are bigots.
What exactly are you frightened of? people opposing racism and bigotry and who condemn bigots and racists?

Re: Top work (#38)

I'm not quite sure you understand my position on this.  There's a difference between compelling someone to do something on the grounds of their beliefs, and holding those beliefs in the first place.  I disagree with your attitudes on homosexuality, but I don't try and force my views on other people and throw insults at people who disagree with my because I believe in freedom of thought and freedom of speech.  It is possible to disagree with other people yet still respect their opinions.  I find it very sad that people in the Labour party particularly seem to be unable to respect other people's opinions and beliefs, even if they disagree with them fundamentally.  Calling people 'bigots and racists' is in no way helpful - I find it  offensive, actually.  

In direct answer to your question "what are you afraid of", it's coercion from Government in what are moral issues that I should be free to think for myself on.  It's not their place, or yours, to tell me what to think on matters of conscience such as this.

Re: Top work (#45)

Well put yourself in the position of a gay person who has to endure countless offences from right wing biggots who say their going to hell and that "god" hates them. It's wonderful that people have the freedom to expres themself in this country I agree with you, however, this does mean that homophobic bigots are also free to express themselfs. Call me modern but I have never managed to understand what exactly is wrong with two male or female adults loving each other?

Re: Top work (#56)

I agree with you that language used by opponents of practising homosexuality doesn't help at all.  I'd very much want to eliminate that too.  However, for religious reasons, I object to homosexual relationships.  Whilst you seem to be more understanding than others, many proponents of 'tolerance' in these matters show an enormous amount of intolerance and bigotry against people who disagree with their stance on homosexuality (see Northern Monkey below).  I find it rather curious that for people such as him, showing tolerance and accepting homosexual relationships seems to involve intolerance and bigotry against people who have genuine disagreements with it.

Anyway, I think we understand where we both stand on this by now...!

Re: Top work (#60)

So should a tolerant person have been tolerant of the Apartheid system in South Africa then as well? Should we be tolerant of torture since a lot of people believe in it?


You have no understanding of what being tolerant is. People do not have to accept you condemning homosexuals because of something written in a poor novel from 2000 years ago.


You should accept everyone on their merits regardless of race, gender, sexuality etc. and if you don't, well that's intolerable.


Why don't you try and open your mind and understand that sexuality is something you're born with - it's not a disability or an illness or something to be looked down upon. Quite frankly, you just demonstrate your ignorance and backwards-thinking every time you post.

Re: Top work (#61)

"You should accept everyone on their merits regardless of race, gender, sexuality etc. and if you don't, well that's intolerable."

So, if you consider someone intolerant, then you shouldn't tolerate them?  That's intolerance, isn't it?

"Quite frankly, you just demonstrate your ignorance and backwards-thinking every time you post."
Is this always how you treat people who disagree with you? 

Re: Top work (#67)

So, if you consider someone intolerant, then you shouldn't tolerate them?  That's intolerance, isn't it?

Of course it is. There's no such thing as 'pure' tolerance. It's not whether somebody is completely tolerant - it's what you're tolerant of, which counts.

If you're tolerant of the BNP, racism, homophobia, torture and murder, then that's very different from tolerating people who are gay, black or Jewish.

Can you see the difference?

Re: Top work (#70)

I certainly do.  So, who decides what's 'good' to tolerate, and what's not?  Do you have an objective method of measurement we can both agree on?  Interested to hear your thoughts on this.

Re: Top work (#81)

Society generally dictates what should be tolerated and what shouldn't.

Society itself is somewhat complex and that doesn't necessarily mean that it's whatever the majority of people want to happen - sometimes the government can play a role in this too.

'Society' believes that Nazism was wrong, racism is wrong and more than ever before, that homophobia is wrong.


But as I've said in a comment further down, it is not logical to be homophobic because sexuality is not a choice, where are religious beliefs are and therefore it's perfectly acceptable to apply criticism where necessary to religion (for example, when people use religion to form their homophobia or sexism).

Re: Top work (#94)

Thanks for clearing that up.  I agree that society in general defines what's tolerable or not.  However, I don't believe it's right to let the whims and fads of a particular time determine what is right or wrong.  I believe in an objective, absolute code of right and wrong which is set out in the Bible.  Unless you can persude me that it is wrong and untrue, then I'm afraid I'm going to stick with what I believe is true for all time and all people, rather than something which is likely to change in twenty years or so.

Sorry to disappoint you...

Re: Top work (#98)

The decline of homophobia is not a whim or a fad - it is a trend. And equally, mistrust of religion is also a trend which will not be reversed. Those few that are Bible-believers tend to be quite old and are dying out as the years go on.


As mankind develops and becomes better educated, religion is becoming increasingly irrelevant and people are becoming far more sceptical about what religion has to say.


For example, few in this country believe the Creation story over evolution. And very few believe that God created the world in six days, rather than the Big Bang. Do you believe in these prbo?


Much of the Bible has already been proven wrong and untrue and if you wish to stay blind from this, then that's your choice, but it doesn't mean you're right.


Fortunately, most people today make judgements using their brains, their hearts and the consciences rather than following whatever a 2000 year old novel has to say.

Re: Top work (#99)

Now this really is going to have to stop as I'm going on holiday tomorrow.  However, I really can't let you get away with these comments.

"Those few that are Bible-believers tend to be quite old and are dying out as the years go on."

Do you have any evidence for this other than a general impression, and what you've read about in the Guardian?  The established church in this country is generally in decline - the non-established church is booming.  In Africa and Asia, churches are barely coping with the number of people who are coming to faith in Christ.  Missionaries from our church and others I know about have some amazing stories to tell - I think you'd be rather surprised.

When was the last time you went to church, out of interest?

For example, few in this country believe the Creation story over evolution.

True.  Doesn't make them right though.  I do believe in creationism over macroevolution.  Having had a look into the possibilities of a universe being created out of nothing, and the evidence for us having evolved rather than being created, I'd politely say that evolution is the fanciful position, given the frightening lack of evidence for it.

"Much of the Bible has already been proven wrong and untrue"

Could you give me some examples?  How much of the Bible have you read seriously, rather than reading what other people have said about it?  There's certainly difficult texts to understand, but could you point me to some parts which are wrong and untrue?  I'd be happy to debate them with you if you'd like.

"using their brains, their hearts and the consciences"
 
You'll be very pleased to know that in coming to faith in Jesus, I used all three.  Still do to this day, as a matter of fact.

I've heard the argument that 'religion will die as people become more advanced' many times.  So why has it not disappeared.  I'd ask you this question, Northern Monkey:  The Bible is all about a man who came down to earth over 2000 years ago, claimed to be God incarnate, and claimed to die for our wrongdoings to restore us to a relationship with God, so that when we die we won't be separated from him but have eternal life.  On the face of it, it's crazy and has nothing of interest to say to me, or anyone else in this day and age. 

So why is it that over a billion people on this planet believe this message, and follow what this man had to say?  Is it mass delusion?  Are they all crazy?  Or might there actually be something in what they believe?

Re: Top work (#111)

No scrutiny Hugh?!

I think you'll find the Bible has been torn apart with scrutiny and criticism. The theory of evolution being perhaps the most significant.

Most of what the Bible has already been proven wrong, if a few individuals wish to deny the truth then that's up to them.


The fact is the Bible has not survived the 2000 years in tact - people are more unbelieving of the Bible than ever before, particularly as people are becoming better-educated.

Re: Top work (#112)

Most of what the Bible has already been proven wrong

I'll repeat - could you provide some evidence, please?  If you don't answer, i'll assume it's because you haven't read the book yourself and are simply relying on what other people have said about it.

As for evolution, that's not the fundamental message of the bible.  The bible is about God coming to earth as Jesus, to die on a cross to save mankind from its wrongdoing. 

Do you believe this is true, or untrue?

Re: Top work (#115)

I didn't live through the Nazi era prbo, that doesn't mean I can't say it happened. I'm certainly not going to waste my time reading an immoral text.

Do you believe this is true, or untrue?

Most likely, untrue.

Re: Top work (#114)

Just take a look at your average church-attendee - generally old. Non-established church booming? If increasing attendance from 5% of the population to 5.5% of the population is 'booming', then yes you're right! Even then, the reason for this is because of the influx of religious Eastern Europeans.


I don't go to church Prbo - faith has little importance to me. Like 93% of the British population I find going to Church pointless.


"I do believe in creationism over macroevolution.  Having had a look into the possibilities of a universe being created out of nothing, and the evidence for us having evolved rather than being created, I'd politely say that evolution is the fanciful position, given the frightening lack of evidence for it"

My goodness prbo, I don't quite know where to begin with that gem! Because of course, there's absolutely tonnes of evidence supporting creationism isn't there!? There certainly is evidence to support evolution, if you choose to ignore this then that's your choice, but unfortunately it demostrates a lack of intelligence or rational thought.

"Much of the Bible has already been proven wrong and untrue" - Could you give me some examples? 

How about all of it?


I find it difficult to see how anyone can use their brain to support a religion, I think it tends to be the people who follow what they are told without questioning it who are the most religious.

I've heard the argument that 'religion will die as people become more advanced' many times.  So why has it not disappeared. 

It is disappearing! Religion will never die out completely - the Bible (and other religious texts) can still provide some good stories which can be retold for novelty purposes. But as mankind has become more advanced, mankind is rejecting religion more and more. Why do you think it tends to be the poorest and most under-developed countries (or in the case of the US, the poorest states) which are the most religious.

So why is it that over a billion people on this planet believe this message, and follow what this man had to say?  Is it mass delusion?  Are they all crazy?

Not crazy prbo, but simply doing what society has told them to do. If you're brought up in a culture to believe that the Bible is true and your parents force you to go to church, or you attend faith school, then it's no surprise that children become indocrinated in this faith. Most people though, as they become adults, grow out of this and are no longer quite so naive (in the same way that they no longer believe in Santa Claus).

People are often very insecure and clinging to some sort of hope in a higher being gives them comfort and strength - but it does not mean they are right. They are basing their judgement on turning a blind eye to the truth in the hope that there is something more after life ends. This is irrational rather than rational and I think you need to be a thoughtful, open-minded person to break out of this and find comfort and strength in life itself, rather than clinging on to something which simply isn't true.

Re: Top work (#118)

Prbo, I do sometimes think that people are unwilling to listen to the arguements of evolution. I accept I need to know more about the opposing side. Fine. But consider this. Look at gorillas, chimps etc. When looked at closely, certain features are indistinguishable. Why do we have the unfortunate, but necessary practice, of animal testing? Because many animals have similar DNA strands. Testing on these animals is indicative of what effect it may have on humans.

I will leave you all with the wise words, of a former US Senator, and sociologist, Daniel Patrick Moniyhan: "People are entitled to their own opinions, but they're not entitled to their own facts."

Re: Top work (#123)

You still haven't answered the question that prbo put to you, all you have said in reply are sound bites, if you cannot back up your argument perhaps you should close mouth.

Re: Top work (#127)

I've answered every question comprehensively. Read the comment back again. It's prbo who won't answer mine, so perhaps you should 'shut mouth'.

Re: Top work (#130)

Prbo also mentions the work that missonaries do. That does not justify half the wrongs religion exports. Moreover, there are just as many secular philanthropists. Look at one of, if not the finest medical roganisation in the world, Medecins Sans Frontieres, founded by Bernard Kouchner (the exemplary French Foreign Minister, whatever you think of his interventionist policies), a secular Jewish atheist.

Re: Top work (#47)

Calling people 'bigots and racists' is in no way helpful - I find it offensive, actually.

It's supposed to be offensive you idiot. That's the point. And the reason why people call you a bigot is because you are one.


You need to step outside the little Tory bubble you live in. Understand that you're the one in the wrong, not other people.

Re: Top work (#55)

"Understand that you're the one in the wrong, not other people."

I was so hoping that this wouldn't happen, but alas it has...Once the argument is lost, the dogmatism comes in, the insults too.  So, we're meant to fight things which are supposedly offensive with more things which are offensive?  and engage in argument on the basis of 'i'm right, you're wrong, and if you disagree you're an idiot?'  Words fail me.


Might you have any justification for calling me a bigot, btw?

Re: Top work (#59)

Yes, you're a homophobe - you said you're against any 'promotion' of homosexuality in schools (whatever 'promotion' is exactly?)

Don't play the sob story - most Tories would be repulsed by your views. I don't really know why you bother posting here because you're so out of touch it's untrue.

Re: Top work (#62)

"I don't really know why you bother posting here because you're so out of touch it's untrue."

I'm trying to understand a viewpoint different from mine through dialogue and debate.  It is possible to do that without insults and invective.  I'm sorry you don't seem to be able to do that.  It is possible to have a difference of views without insulting people and resorting to name-calling.

Re: Top work (#66)

But you're not open to dialogue. You just said you're completely against promotion of homosexuality at schools for some warped religious reasons.

And I'm afraid people who are homophobic deserve to be insulted so they can learn that what they're saying is wrong and very hurtful.

Re: Top work (#68)

Prbo, you say you object to same-sex relationships. Here's some advice, if you object to homosexual relationships, then don't have a relationship with somebody of the same gender.

N. Monkey, you were right to say that the Bible was a poor novel. I could don the T.S. Elliot hat, but I need a better perspicacity before I try a subversive literary critique. Now. Main character, God= psycho. Wiping out Egypt. Where's a moral posturing christain when you need one? Oh no, wait, they're too busy worrying about boys kissing.

Re: Top work (#69)

moreover, I find it ironic for some christains to believe in freedom of speech, and expression, as our supposed ancestors Adam and Eve, were punished for gaining knowledge, that contradicted 'god's will'

Re: Top work (#71)

Why do you assume that I'm a Christian?  And haven't you just said that 'we should accept people regardless of race, sexuality etc'?  Does that include religion?  I don't ridicule you for your beliefs.  So why do you assume that I believe certain things (which I haven't said I do), jump to conclusions, and then rubbish what for some are deeply-held beliefs?  That's not very tolerant, is it - by any defintion of the term.  I happen to have many friends in the Labour party with very simliar religious beliefs to me - would you insult and ridicule them in the same way?

Re: Top work (#73)

The whole point of freedom of expression, is that it does protect the rigt to hold intolerent beliefs, but it also gives me the right to disagree with these beliefs, religions are ideologies.

Fyi, I don't assume you're a christain, but I merely said that Northern Monkey was right for calling the bible a bad novel, then as a further point, I criticised someof the views of the adherents. Remember I am not attacking the adherents right to hold beliefs, but just the beliefs itself.

I never said we should accept someone regardless of race, if you have seen my previous posts, I disagree with the terms 'race', 'racial', 'racism'. Am I PC? No, but the word have etymological flaws.

I am not a member of the Labour party. You're entitled to your own beliefs, but I will disagree with them, and have every right to do so. If you say you have problems with homosexuality, then you should expect to be disagreed with. If you have religious beliefs, then you should also expected to be disagreed with, because Enlightenment values tell me that Religions have in all likelihood spread myths to perpetuate intolerant, obsequious, meglomaniac ideas.

Re: Top work (#74)

Thanks for this.  On that statement, sorry that was one that Northern Monkey made - don't want to implicate you by mistake!

Very much accept your points, but on disagreeing with people's beliefs etc, I think it's important to actually understand them first.  Have you ever read the Bible in any depth at all?

Totally agree with you on what you say about race - quite right.  It's a virtually meaningless word now.

Re: Top work (#76)

Prbo, you're quite right. I need a better understanding of the bible. However, I am 15, and there is time to expand my theological understanding. From the passages I have read however, there is much that makes me uncomfortable, and is a complete defernce of many of my views.

Re: Top work (#77)

Indeed there is - nothing beats starting young!  I would give you a few pointers, but I feel this thread has digressed enough from the intial topic of Boris Johnson's mayoral campaign...

Re: Top work (#80)

No not really prbo.

Religion is a belief, where as sexuality and skin colour are something that cannot be chosen.

Whilst I agree with protecting those of faith through anti-discrimination legislation and incitement of hatred laws, I think it is perfectly acceptable to criticise religion and those who follow a particular faith.

Being against a race or a sexuality defies logic since nobody can choose these factors, unless of course, you're some heartless soul who is quite happy to attack people because of the way they were born.

However, criticising religion is perfectly rational since it is only a belief - and one that is very much out of step with the modern world. A critique of religion can often be intelligent and liberating and generally makes more sense that the religious texts themselves, whether they be the Bible, Qu'ran or anything else.

Re: Top work (#85)

Don't get me wrong on this - I'm by no means trying to deny anyone the right to criticise religion.  However, I do find it quite odd that in the course of a dialogue like this, as soon as the subject of religion is mentioned you immediately throw insults and jibes, particularly as I haven't even told you what I believe.  I've tried not to insult any of your beliefs because it adds absolutely nothing to the debate - it's pretty pointless, frankly.

Totally agree with what you say about other discrimination.  So do you oppose the Government's religious hatred legislation?  Interested to hear your take on this. 

Re: Top work (#89)

Feel free to tell me what your beliefs are and we can take it from there.

I agree with the religious hatred legislation - I don't agree that people should incite violence against someone because of their religion.

Re: Top work (#72)

Could you define what dialogue means for you here?  I believe I said 'I disagree with the promotion of homosexuality in schools.'  Yet, you've just accused me of 'warped religious reasons' for being 'completely against' the promotion of homosexuality.

Does this count as dialogue?

Re: Top work (#79)

I've already said that there was no dialogue as you showed no express interest in possibly changing your mind on this one. You said you disagreed with the 'promotion' of homosexuality in schools because of religious reasons.

So then tell me, which religion are you abusing to form your homophobic views?

Re: Top work (#84)

Dear Northern Monkey

Are you open to changing your mind on this as well?  If not, I'm sure this is doing either of us any good.  I'm happy to hear what you have to say, as you can see - unfortunately, I'm not sure you're too happy about hearing what other people have to say, particularly if they're different from your opinions.

And on which religion, why do you say 'abusing'?  Do you know what each of the mainstream religions teaches on this subject in order to be able to work out what constitutes an abuse?

Re: Top work (#88)

Are you open to changing your mind on this as well?

To be frank, no. But I don't see why I should have to be. I don't think that people should be discriminated against on the way they were born. That's a noble stance. Now by arguing that you don't want teachers to educate children about homosexuality at an appropriate age or want same-sex couples to appear in childrens' books, then that is homophobic discrimination.

To me, debating whether we should discriminate against gay people is comparable to debating 'should women be allowed to vote' or 'which race is superior'. They're not debates which intelligent or moral people have.

Re: Top work (#93)

Thanks for that, it's certainly cleared up a few things.  So, to sum up:

I'm not interested in 'dialogue' because I may not want to change my mind.  However, you claim to be interested in dialogue, yet have just said you're not open to changing your mind either.  So essentially it's dialogue on your terms. 

There's many more points I could make on this debate, but I think for the sake of both our sanity, I'll leave it here.  I find it worrying that you can't accept people like me have problems with the promotion of homosexuality for religious reasons.  I notice you haven't responded to my point about the insults.  However, I respect your views and your right to hold them even though I thoroughly disagree with them.

Re: Top work (#97)

My viewpoint on this issue is based on intelligent, rational and moral thought that people should not be discriminated against on the basis of sexuality (which is not a choice).

Your viewpoint is based on bigotry which you try to justify from some outdated religious text.

Maybe we should consider banning 'promotion' of your religion at schools too.

Re: Top work (#100)

"Maybe we should consider banning 'promotion' of your religion at schools too."

That seems to be what most Labour MPs want, by what I've seen.  Looks like you're in good company.  However, as long as we have an established church (which I don't necessarily think is a good thing), you'll have an uphill battle, methinks.

"some outdated religious text."

If this is the case, why are more copies of the Bible sold in this country every year than any other book?  Some novel.  When was the last time you seriously read it?

Re: Top work (#110)

The most fantascist novels are often the best-selling.


Hopefully, we'll no longer have an established church in the future. Getting rid of the blasphemy laws is a good start.

Re: Top work (#113)

I'll repeat that - when was the last time you seriously read the Bible?

Re: Top work (#116)

I don't read the Bible - why the hell should I?

When's the last time you read every single text that proved the Bible was wrong?

Re: Top work (#120)

NM. I have an idea. There should be legislation making Chris Hitchens and Richard Dawkins' books mandatory in every hotel room in Britain.

Re: Top work (#128)

Sounds good to me!

Re: Top work (#133)

Aah, how I've missed this! 

So, in summary...you've told me that the Bible isn't true, it's a load of nonsense, and it's a bad novel...but you haven't read it, so you don't know.  Brilliant analysis!  Worthy of a true debater.  Sorry NM, but if you're going to criticise something you might at least have the decency to read the text in question first.

I've read critiques of the bible (obviously I haven't read every single one as I'd probably spend the rest of my life tracking them down and learning arabic to read them), and none of them have come close to addressing the fundamental claims about who Jesus was and why he came down to earth to die.

Incidentally, have you read the criticisms as well?

Re: Top work (#134)

you have not provided any evidence to suggest that the manifesto of the Bible is true. You no doubt, require some hypocrasy, with your beliefs in the Bible. You may eat shellfish, you may get haircuts. This, the Bible forbids. I am assuming you do not endorse some of the more sadist-masochistic aspects of supporting disproportionate corporal punishment, and slavery.


If you are to criticise people for not providing evidence of Jesus and God, you must in turn find evidence to support the supposed existence of these two.


Unfortunately, for yourself, I do not believe that criticism of religion is the same thing as criticism of sexuality, or ethnicity etc. It was said by the supposed Jesus of Nazareth, that Christains must expect to be mocked for their beliefs, as they would appear rediculous to some.

Re: Top work (#135)

Hi Jkitleft again.

I'd be rather wary about accusing people of hypocrisy before you know what they actually think.  I'm not sure it particularly helps in a civilised debate.

That aside, could you point me to the passages which deal with the issues you mention?  I'd be happy to try and explain the context, although I'm not overly familiar with them.

As for criticising people who don't provide evidence for Jesus or God, that's not what I'm asking at all.  What I'm asking is for the criticisms which you make of the Bible to be substantiated.  If someone says 'the bible is wrong', then one can expect to be asked 'prove it.'  You're right to ask me if I have evidence that what the bible says is true.  I'd be very happy to have a much more detailed discussion with you, but it's a huge question which would take up a great deal more space than a simple blog thread allows.  If you'd like, you can send me your email address and we can carry on the discussion in a slightly less public forum...

As a final general point, I've got no problem with people criticising religion.  I totally agree with you that believers should expect to be criticised.  What I take issue with is people making allegations which they can't substantiate.  If people say 'the bible is wrong' or 'it's all made up', but haven't actually read it, then what's the point of debating further?

Re: Top work (#117)

More to the point prbo, why don't you actually try and provide some evidence to prove that the Bible is true?

Re: Top work (#119)

Prbo-

1) How do you know what you believe is true? I don't know, but rationality tells me that it isn't.

2) You say you have a problem with homosexuality due to religious reasons. Does religious belief mean you endorse slavery, taking disobedient children to the village wall to be stoned, or even, not eating shellfish, because of the Bible?

Re: Top work (#109)

Helpful.

Re: Top work (#124)

Surely "promotion" of a product or an idea or concept is, to sell it, that its the best, better than anything else, the right way forward, a geat idea/product/concept, please buy it/into it.

Re: Top work (#46)

I happen to be against the promotion of homosexuality in schools - does that make me homophobic? 

Yes it most certainly does.

Being in support of tolerance and inclusivity

What?

How on earth can you have the cheek to claim to be tolerant and inclusive when you've just said you're against the 'promotion' of homosexuality in schools.

There is not a shred of evidence to show you are tolerant at all - in fact you've actually proven you're not tolerant.

You represent the very worse kind of Tory, just like Boris Johnson. You are homophobic and yet smugly claim that you are in fact tolerant and inclusive.

Understand this, if you are homophobic, you cannot be tolerant.

And what on earth do you think the 'promotion' of homosexuality involves exactly prbo? Do you think the teachers go around telling all the kids that they should be gay when they grow up? Do you actually understand that sexuality is not a choice or something that can be flicked on and off like a light switch?

I'm going to be intrigued what your answer is to this and I recommend that you be very thoughtful about what you say.

Re: Top work (#108)

The difference is Hugh, Barack Obama is a thoroughly decent person and his use of irony is clear.

However, it's hardly unbelievable that Boris Johnson is racist - he does have very Thatcherite views and he does have a tendancy to make these kinds of comments.

Comparing Boris with Barack is like comparing chalk and cheese.

Re: Top work (#126)

Sure.

Re: Top work (#15)

These people on the whole on this site, are New Labour, not the left.

Re: Bright (#6)

Martin Bright's free to attack Ken and we're free to criticise Martin Bright for it.

It was a nasty hatchet job that didn't put anything new into the public arena. It was largely based on a disaffected former employee and was timed only to damage the Labour Party in the run up to the London elections.

Unsurprisingly, as a Labour Party member, I'm not that happy about it or the fact that it comes from the Political Editor of a Labour Party supporting magazine.

Re: Top work (#8)

Fair?  I certainly see your point.  The difference is that Ken's been in charge of London for the last eight years - Boris hasn't.  By your account, if a journalist does scrutinises one politician in an investigative documentary, then they have to do the same to their opponent in order for it to be 'fair.'  Is that right?

Journalists are free to do what they want - if you don't like it, you don't buy their newspaper/magazine/watch their programmes.  Simple as that.

Re: Top work (#9)

And additionally, I don't think calling Martin Bright a 'parasite' does your cause any good at all.  Using insults like this doesn't say a great deal about the strength of your case.

Boris-huggers at the Evening Standard (#10)

Have you seen Ken's Excellent article in the Evening Standard today?

www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard

Ken's record speaks for itself.

Boris and friends stick to inventing smear campaigns because they haven't got any policies that Londoners want.

Re: Boris-huggers at the Evening Standard (#12)

Given the misrepresentation of Boris Johnson's article and the misuse of words taken out of context; combine that with the use of public money to attack opponents like Trevor Philips; and you say that 'Boris and friends stick to inventing smear campaigns'.

There are real problems with Ken Livingstone's term in office.  Instead of attacking the program on the basis that you have, why not actually answer the criticisms? 

Interesting that a few days after it was said that there was no substance in any of the criticisms, one of the team has now resigned. 

Re: Boris-huggers at the Evening Standard (#13)

It doesn't help matters when a member of Jaspers staff doesn't come forward with the exact truth: she did go away to a resort, but it was all paid for by the airline. And Jasper himself has got some explaining to do about involving himself in 'operational work'. But Ken can only go on what he has been told.

Ken has explained the whisky drinking incident, and does give straight answers to media questions, which is a lot more than Johnson does, who's apparently now apologised for his racists remarks; so that's all right then? Well no it isn't! The man is a disgrace, who looks down on people, whose attitude is patronising as you'd expect from a philandering upper class twit.
I've said this before, that the Mayor should be limited to two terms; for obvious reasons; people begin to think they are indispensible. And that is a mistake.

Incidently, is Bright really pally with Johnson? and has he been promised the editorship of the Spectator?

Bright can no longer stay with the NS after his breach of trust with the Left.

Re: Top work (#17)

Why is it ok for people on this site to throw insults at boris for being an 'upper-class twit,' whereas if I called a labour MP a working-class thickie I would be accused of all kinds of prejudice?  For a party which claims to stand for equality, there's a frightening amount of bigotry on show.

And as for Martin Bright's 'breach of trust' - since when do you have to agree on everything to be part of a political movement?  Is there a document of principles and values you have to sign to be part of the 'left?'  Interesting take on loyalty in my opinion.

Re: Top work (#18)

People are always telling me that behind that appearance of a buffoon is an acute intellectual mind. But I have yet to see any evidence of it. What you see of Johnson is what you get. As Churchill once said of Attlee: He has plenty to be modest about. Well the same could be said of Johnson, only the bluff exterior hides a bluff interior.

And, although Bright is a journalist , and we make some allowances for journalists, he still needs to abide by certain codes and standards; one of which is that the NS supports the Left in principle and we don't do things that would damage the cause. His questioning of Ken at his conference call seen on TV, was discourteous and uncalled for.

Re: Top work (#19)

Thanks for the clarification swatantra.  Interesting definition of loyalty!  I thought that journalists had freedom over what they write, and who they support?  Who is it that lays down these 'codes and standards?' And how are they enforceable?  Has Martin Bright given any assurance that he won't 'rock the boat,' even if he believes one of the standard-bearers of the left is doing things very unhelpful to the cause? 

As for Johnson, you've cunningly not answered my question.  Why is class prejudice excusable against the upper class?  boris didn't have any choice over the way and means of his upbringing, just like you and me.  So why is it ok to criticise him for it?  Isn't that the same as criticising someone for other things they can do nothing about - like race and skin colour? 

Re: Top work (#20)

You're absolutely right, we can't be responsible for our parents. As Alec Home once said of Wilson: If I'm the
14th Earl then I guess you must be the 14th Mr Wilson. But what we can be responsible for is seeing the world through other peoples eyes and seeing their unfortunate situation and improving it. Child Poverty is number one for the Govt, because that impacts on crime and health; education another; ok Johnson went to a public school but surely anyone with any sense can see that such schools are priviliged and money and resources are concentrated there. And yet will they send their own kids to state schools? and spend their efforts on improving state schools; no.

Re: Top work (#21)

Thanks for that - glad we agree on something!  I disagree on what you say about private schools - they don't get any state money, and appear to be able to give a quality of education far superior to the state sector.

But i agree, we need to concentrate on improving the state sector.  Which I think starts with giving schools more freedom, not less.  But that's a whole different topic...

Re: Top work (#23)

Private schools do get charitable status though - and most of them don't deserve it.

Re: Top work (#28)

Oh dear...I get the idea we're not going to agree on this...I'll spare us the pain

Re: Top work (#30)

The private schools sector receives £100m each year in tax breaks due to charitable status

Re: Top work (#31)

Ok, you've convinced me to come back in...

...so what?  If it's in the private sector, and it's educating people to a good standard, I fail to see the problem.  By opposing things such as this, it really seems as though the Labour Party's opposed to people receiving a good education through paying for it themselves.  I don't get it at all. 

Frankly, it seems to be much more like class-war prejudice (as with Boris Johnson) rather than any rational argument something which is a genuine problem.  But that's just how it seems to me...

Re: Top work (#32)

Oh dear, it's not looking good....another left-winger calling for Ken to go:  http://blogs.independent.co.uk/openhouse/2008/01/why-ken-must-go.html

What a breach of trust!  I suppose he's a parasite and tool of the all-powerful neo-cons as well...

Re: Top work (#33)

If schools want to be funded privately then so be it, but don't expect tax breaks then! Why should the taxpayer contribute to people opting out of the state sector?

They should be treated like any other private business (most of them anyway).

Re: Top work (#34)

I totally understand your point, but I just think there are far more important things out there.  Private equity companies dodging tax, non-doms - these are the dodgy things people should be worried about.  It just looks like you want to target private education because it's people who a 'rich and posh' who use it. 

Re: Top work (#35)

I agree with you in the main, however not all parents who send their children to private schools are " rich and posh " a lot of so called ordinary people scrimp and save to do the same. Why do they do this? because they will do anything they can to get their children out of of a system that is continually having the statistics manipulated by this government and into a system that will teach them to actually read & write.

Re: Top work (#37)

I went to state schools and I can read and write perfectly well thank you.

And Prbo, there's nothing more important than education and I'm sure the money raised from getting rid of the tax breaks will help state schools to become better and then hopefully people like Dick will be more optimistic about them.

Re: Top work (#39)

Very much take your point on this.  However, I'd cheekily say that if the Government weren't scandalously using over £50bn of public funds to prop up a private firm on a scale unimagined even by Ted Heath in the 70s, they could double the amount of investment for state education at a stroke.  However, that's a whole different topic...

Re: Top work (#42)

So what should we do - just let everybody who held savings in Northern Rock lose all their money? What a pathetic attitude.

Re: Top work (#57)

Why is it pathetic?  It's a private company.  Not state-owned, and therefore not eligible for state aid.  Are there any other private companies you believe can receive state aid when they get into trouble?

Re: Top work (#58)

That's appauling - so you're quite happy to see all those people lose their life savings through no fault of their own?

I certainly believe you have to help savers if incompetent banks lose their money, yes. Even the majority of your party members are compassionate enough to realise that.

Re: Top work (#63)

So you're happy for private companies to be propped up.  What criteria do you use for who gets the help and who doesn't?  Does that apply to all banks and building societies?

Re: Top work (#64)

Yes, I'm perfectly happy to see government money being used to ensure millions of savers keep their life savings. And yes, it applies to all banks and building societies.

Now you answer my question from the above comment. Are you happy to see millions of savers lose their life savings? What would you do if you had saved in Northern Rock and lost everything because the government wouldn't back you up? Are you completely heartless?

Re: Top work (#95)

I'm completely happy to see them lose their life savings, and I hope that they starve in the streets as well...

Of course I'm not!  Don't be so silly.  It's a terrible situation, and no-one could condone it.  I know you'd like to portray me as a cold, calculating heartless ogre, but unfortunately everyone who disagrees with you isn't actually evil - it is actually possible for people outside of the Labour Party to believe in helping people as well.  

It's a totally different question as to whether the Government should intervene to prop up a failed company.  If the Government is willing to use over £50bn of public money to do this, why haven't they been willing to put it into public services, the armed forces and all kinds of other things which would be much more worthy and deserving.

Re: Top work (#96)

Prbo, I haven't tried to portray you as anything! I'm just basing my points on what you have said.

Now you don't agree with public money being used to rescue the savers at Northern Rock, so what would you have proposed which wouldn't have seen savers lose their money?

Re: Top work (#41)

Why do you always believe that money is the only answer to everything, what schools want is less interference, less useless targets, PROPER exam qualifications. They are already getting loads of cash.
Until the Government realise that they cannot educate the whole country from an office in Westminster and lets the schools get on with teaching, it not going to improve.
I very much doubt this will ever happen because of the socialist doctrine of having controll over everything and everybody.

Re: Top work (#43)

Stop over-exaggerating Dick.

Nobody said money was the answer to everything, but if we're to match funding of state schools to funding of private schools, then state schools need more money.


This would never happen under a Tory government because of the conservative doctrine of not giving a toss about the poor.

Re: Top work (#50)

I note that your reply is ONLY about money, nothing about adressing the real problems that I had raised. Most employers will tell you that an awful lot of children leaving school cannot write, read, nor add up, money will not solve this, because they have had plenty of it, only teaching can.
I am quite happy to praise the government for the amount of money its put into education, but when its proven that its not working then they need to look at why.

Re: Top work (#51)

It has worked Dick - reading standards are higher now than they've ever been. So as I said, stop being so dramatic.

Money is certainly a major part of the solution - more money means better qualified teachers, better faclities for kids and more schools. Reform may well be required, but you're naive if you think reform without money will get you anywhere. Look how poorly educational standards were under Thatcher and Major.

Re: Top work (#52)

If you think that reading standards are higher now than ever before and that education was rubbish under Thatcher & Major, I can only conclude that you are not of this world.

Re: Top work (#54)

Oh please Dick, even you can't pretend that education wasn't in an atrocious state under the Tory governments - schools couldn't even afford text books by the end of Major's government.

And even when you take grade inflation into account, reading standards are higher now than they've ever been.

So one can only presume that you are 'out of this world' Dick.

Re: (#25)

Private schools get the benefit of fully trained teachers which almost all have been heavily subsidised by the state.

Re: (#40)

Ignorance is wonderful, especially when ignorance is the basis of argument and opinion.

Yes, private schools get a tax break of £100 million per annum.  But, they don't get other tax breaks that the commercial and public sector can take advantage of and they educate about 7% of the children of the UK.  And the parents who pay for their children's education privately also pay taxes (and because many of them can afford the £10,000 to £25,000 fees for each child that they educate privately, they are probably paying more in taxes that someone on average earnings). 

Some of those taxes are used to educate other children in the state sector; and some of the fees that they pay are used to subsidise other children at the private schools - through burseries and scholarships.

Private schools do use teachers trained in the public sector.  They also use teachers who are not trained in the public sector - and they also have the freedom to use people who are not trained as teachers but who are capable of teaching.

If we get into the 'public benefit' argument, we also have to discuss the benefits that each of the schools provides to local communities.  Facilities, even teaching facilities, are made available to local communities, schools and others.  These include access to sports grounds, swimming pools, theatres, workshops; the variety is extraordinary and very substantial.

No argument is simply about this lot are good, that lot are bad.  There are arguments to be had about education, but please, base argument on something tangible, rather than on prejudice and ignorance.

Re: (#44)

Same applies to you Evan.

Not all private schools allow the community to use their facilities to the full extent. And those that don't should not get any tax break from the state.

As I say, if schools want to be in the private sector, then they shouldn't expect state handouts.


And don't give the sob story that parents who send kids to private schools also pay tax. So they should. Nobody forces them to send their kids to private schools. And any scholarships given out by private schools are few and far between.


With regards to the public benefit, private schools ensure that only a lucky 7% of pupils get access to the best, most highly-paid teachers and that most certainly is not in the public interest. Not only that, but they create effective segregation since birth on the basis of wealth and class - not a positive thing at all.

Re: (#48)

The point I am making is that the cost of the £100 million or so tax advantage that arises from the charitable status that most private schools have is hugely outweighed by the saving to the state of not paying for the education of the 7% of kids that attend those private schools and the other deductions that would otherwise be made in terms of tax.  The best estimate is that the saving to the tax payer is between £1.5 and £2.5 billion.

No sob story and I am not seeking exemptions from tax - and wouldn't argue for it either. 

The private school that I am a Governor of provides scholarships and burseries to more than 1/3 of the children that attend it. 

Again, the private school that I am a Governor of provides teaching for local children who attend state schools in the local area.  This includes teaching subjects that the state schools do not provide; providing additional classes in other subjects; and providing teaching in areas that we would include in 'education' but which falls outside the curriculum.

As to the segregation; yes.  But don't forget that here in parts of North London, the segregation is just as stark - but that is based on the address of the parents.

Re: (#49)

Evan, the money saved from seeing children educated privately may well outweigh the cost of the tax breaks - but that is not the argument here. If schools choose to teach children outside of the state sector, then they shouldn't automatically expect any tax breaks at all. If parents have to pay more to get their kids into private schools then so be it - nobody is forcing them to send their kids there.

However, if schools show a great deal of social responsibility by helping others who are less fortunate then there's more of an argument for them to keep the tax breaks.

Re: (#53)

There are about 500,000 kids attending private schools in the UK.  The Government says that it is spending about £6,000 per child on education.  Now either the spending per child would fall or the Government would need to find another £3billion to keep the same spending per child were all those kids to be educated in the state sector.

No-one is expecting tax breaks - even though they amount to some £100 million per annum.  The removal of charitable status would cause all sorts of difficulty with the assets, land, buildings, trusts and so on that are currently held on charitable trusts.  These are real legal problems that would need to be resolved.

The estimate of the cost to parents of a simple removal of the charitable status (without taking into account the difficulties relating to assets, land, building, trusts and so on) would be pretty marginal - less than 3% of current fees is the estimate that I have read in the press.

The school of which I am a Governor is not unique ... almost every one of its competitors (which probably include all of the private schools that you can name and some that most people couldn't) is doing the same or similar things.

The school of which I am a Govenor is even sponsoring a city academy ...

There is not problem satisfying a test of 'public benefit' provided that the test is not politically motivated ...

Re: (#65)

Nobody is advocating closing down all of the private schools Evan - you're setting up a straw man here. I just want them to work harder to deserve their tax breaks.


Now some private schools do deserve to keep them if they have a sufficient number of scholarships and they contribute to the local community by providing facilities. However, many don't deserve this status.


I'm sure some sort of accommodation can be made so private schools don't get into legal difficulties but still don't get tax breaks.


I'm afraid a lot of private schools don't deserve these breaks.

Re: (#75)

I'm not setting up a straw man ... the intent of those that promoted the 'public benefit' amendment to the Charities Act is set out in their arguments in Hansard.

The promoters intended to create the very legal difficulties that could result in many of the schools having their assets seized and applied cy pres (for charitable purposes).  The 'accommodation' that you describe would have to pass through Parliament that added the 'public benefit' test that is not defined and is left to burea