The case against referenda

Everybody seems to be demanding a referendum on something these days, mostly on Europe, but also on anything that might smack of 'constitutional change'. But how well thought out is the argument, and do referenda produce better decisions than parliamentary votes?

Britain doesn't have a long history with referenda. The first one was back in 1975 on remaining in the EEC as it then was. Now, when Wilson called that vote, did he do so out of a genuine sense that the issue was so important that only 'the people' could decide the issue once and for all? Like hell he did. He called it because the party was hopelessly divided on the issue and a referendum where he allowed his MPs and cabinet members to campaign on whichever side they pleased gave him a way out, a safety valve. Thus our first referendum was an act of political expediency, not principle, high or otherwise.

However, that Labour government got the taste for them and called another one on the issue of devolution. Unfortunately, the result of that only caused a sore in the party that took until the 1997 referendum in Scotland and Wales to heal. So the idea that a referendum in one point in history 'decides' an issue for all time is obvioulsly false.

Another false idea, although one advanced by Tony Benn among others is that 'the people' are sovereign and that as an MP he only borrowed their sovereignty. Sadly, that's nonsense, but an appealing nonsense. In Britain, it is the monarch in parliament assembled who is sovereign, not the people. Don't forget, we are not citizens in the democratic sense; we are subjects under the crown. Final authority always rests with the queen in parliament assembled. Now obviously, in practice that means that whatever parliament decides is de facto what the monarch decides, but the point remains - the people are not in our country sovereign. So if there was a referendum on an issue, parliament cannot be bound by its outcome although it would pay a political price for not doing so. Furthermore, future parliaments cannot be bound by any previous referendum. Now, if folk want to challenge this, fine. But it seems to me that the solution to this is to become a republic and then the people can be sovereign and Tony Benn's comforting fiction can then be true.

There are also considerable practical problems with a referendum. Let's take the present fuss over the EU Treaty / Constitution as a case study. How on earth do you come up with a question to put to a referendum? Presumably, it would have to be something on the lines of 'The government has agreed a Treaty with Britain's partners in the EU affecting the way the EU works. Do you agree with these changes? Yes / No.' What if you agree with half of it. How do you vote? What about if you agree with 75% of it? Or 30% of it but think that's the most important bit? The point is that a referendum forces things to be framed as a simple duality, a yes / no framework. Most political decisions aren't like that. On the EU Treaty, a better approach would be a sort of line item veto with a seperate question for each article. I'm not sure the factory in Keswick could make enough pencils to mark all the papers for that one! Finally on the EU Treaty, a referendum assumes that the people are competant to decide the question; that they have the knowledge. I'm pretty sure I don't and I'm a political geek.

Another objection is that people don't vote on the issue on the paper. They might use the referendum to give the government a kicking, or send the government a message about something else. The idea of defeating the government in  a referendum is an appealing one for opposition parties, even if they agree with the government on the issue on the paper. So, a referendum doesn't contribute to good decision making.

There's also a question of social justice. However low the turnout gets in a GE, the Labour Party can, even if it doesn't always do so in practice, seek to look out for the interests of the worst off in society. In a referendum, the decision is taken by those who show up. Those people will be disproportinately better off, better educated. In short, the people who already hold power in this country. You can be sure that if you campaign on the doorstep in a referendum campaign the folk telling you that they don't really understand the issue will be the worse off in society. They will also be the ones who don't vote. However much they have an interets (in the sense that the isue will affect them directly) in the issue, they will not affect the outcome. There can be no protection of that interest by elected MPs in parliament if the decision is taken by referendum.

So, in summary, the arguments against referenda area s follows:

1. Parliament is sovereign not the people.
2. Complex questions cannot always be simplified to a yes / no referendum question.
3. Voters may not understand the issue or the consequences of their decision.
4. People may not vote on the issue, but on other considerations.

It seems to me that it is for governments and parliament to decide questions. As the people we choose our representatives and we retain the right to lobby and demonstrate our views to those representatives. A referendum is an indication of the failure of that process or a lack of faith in it by politicians. Demands for a referendum are just cynical political point scoring and should be dismissed as mere froth. If we believe in parliament, if we believe in democracy we should let parliament decide. If we don't like it ,we can elect a new parliament at the appropriate time.

Display: Sort:

Re: The case against referenda (#1)

So to summarise:

Parliament is more important than the will of the people.  A sort of divine right of politicians to rule.

The people are too stupid to decide for themselves.

 Salus populi suprema lex

Re: The case against referenda (#2)

Guido,

Very droll, and absolutely not the point I was making at all. I would be delighted to see discussion on Rousseau's General Will on Labour Home, but I'm fairly sure you, as a right winger, are not advocating some Rousseauian scheme in the least. My arguments apply to Britain as presently politically constituted under a monarchy, albeit one tempered by an elected House of Commons. Construct a polity on different lines and the arguments also change. Rousseau thought that everyone should have a fair income so as to be able to have time to devote to politics. I don't see that in Britain. Rousseau also thought that a sovereign people should decide things in accordance with the common good; that the General Will of the people would be the right decision. In order to determine the General Will, people must not act in their own interest but in the interests of all. The trend from Thatcher onwards has been for an increasing individualism in British politics, with people looking out solely for themselves. So, I can't see that working in the short term either.

Also, I never said the people were too stupid to decide for themselves. I said that many did not have the knowledge to decide some particularly complex questions for themselves. Note, I included myself in that. On Europe, for example, I haven't read the proposed Treaty, and even if I did, I don't think I would understand it fully. If there was a referendum on it, I would probably vote yes on the general grounds that I'm in favour of the EU. However, I would rather the EU had a proper constitution that did away with the Council of Ministers and had political decisions taken by the EU parliament. But that wouldn't be on the ballot paper. If Britain voted no, then it is possible that our position within the EU would come under question and I would be reluctant for that to happen. So a referendum on the Treaty would not in practice be about the Treaty at all, but about a number of different and inter-related issues that would not reduce sensibly to a yes/ no referendum question.


Lastly, your comment about a 'divine right of politicians to rule' is just plain daft. It assumes that politicians are seperate from the rest of the people. In fact, of course, our MPs are chosen from among the people to represent them.


While you may want a referendum on Europe (Idon't know, but I assume it from the tone of your comments), my post was an attempt to highlight the problems of using the device of a referendum within a parliamentary democracy under the crown. Change the system and the arguments also change and the referendum may then have a role to play in political decision making.

Re: The case against referenda (#4)

Well Guido, we elect politicians supposedly because they will actually bother to read these treaties and bills and so have a better understanding of what's on offer. (Whether this actually happens or not is another question).

What's the point of putting everything remotely controversial to a referendum when the average joe won't read what's on offer and will end up doing what The Sun tells them to do (or even worse, what your two-bit blog tells them to do).

We elect representatives who are supposedly intelligent to Parliament to make the decisions on our behalf. Sure, there are some exceptional decisions that can be put to a referendum like joining the Euro because at least everyone would have a good idea of what's on offer and what the pros and cons are. But putting treaties (like the current one) to a referendum is a waste of time and is an abuse of democracy rather than an enhancement of it.

Re: The case against referenda (#3)

I am more than pleased to leave these complicated matters in the hands of the philosopher kings of Westminster upon Thames because I lack rounded insight and I am highly unpredictable.

Although a bit dimwitted I am confused to my status as a non-sovereign citizen given that the referendum thing has been applied to Scotland and vaguely to Wales but not, under any circumstances, to England.

Are 85% of the population uniquely incapable?

And instead of asking the plebs via a referendum how's about trying a general election where by popular plebby vote you elect a government based upon the advertised manifesto.

Like promising top hold a referendum? 

Re: The case against referenda (#5)

...Like promising to hold a referendum on a Constitution rather than a Treaty which we have numerous opt-outs from.


With regards to England, remember that London had a referendum in 1998 to decide if the people wanted an elected Mayor and Assembly. And I'm sure if an English Parliament we to ever be set up, there would also be a referendum on that.

Re: The case against referenda (#6)

I think I need to clarify a few points:

1) When writing the original post I was trying to show how a device which was first used in this country as a way out of a tricky political situation has been turned into some sort of constitutional convention that any time there is a change that might seemingly affect our constitution, such as it is, that change has to be put to a referendum.

2) That people don't all vote on the question put before them in a referendum but can take into account all sorts of other considerations is an observable fact. It doesn't carry any value judgements at all.


3) That a referendum was held in Scotland and Wales doesn't mean that those people were sovereign. The legislation that set up the Welsh Assembly and Scottish parliament still had to go through parliament and, most significantly, had to receive the Royal Assent. Parliament could have ignored the result of the referendum if it wished, and a future parliament could legislate to close the Scottish parliament and Welsh assembly if it wanted to without another referendum. The fact is that it is the Queen in parliament assembled that is sovereign in this country. I would be certainly in favour of changing that, to become a republic where the people can be constituted as a sovereign body. As I've written elsewhere, if that were to occur then the arguments would change.

4) Philosopher Kings? Have you actually read Plato? If you haven't, you probably should so that you could rethink that comment. If you have, then I can only assume that you were using the term as a rhetorical device for heaping gentle mockery upon what I had hoped was an attempt to provoke thoughtful debate, but which appears to have created the impression that I support elite rule. As a socialist, nothing could be further from the truth. A commentary upon how things are is not the same as saying that things are as they ought to be.

Re: The case against referenda (#7)

In 1975, Hariold Wilson knew he would win because he had the money on his side. The "Yes"  campaign    was slick (long before spin)  and  by way of contrast the "No" campaign  had no money, was done on a shoestring   and  carried  on against the odds ( sounds familiar...).Then, the Left were anti-Europe.Wilson   couldn't let them win as then they were inthe ascendancy. Most people didn't have a clue what they were voting for or why.
MPs? Most don't actually think about the issues, so they  just do as they are told by the Whips. The idea that  they are somehow superior than Joe Public is , frankly, nonsense. Campaigns  can be manipulated, people  can be bought, Mps  rely on patronage to get into Govt. The whole system  sucks, really. 
 So should we have a refeerndum on the constitution? Yes. Why? because  we promised we would. The result will be a  lottery but probably one Gordon will be able to manoevre  to his advantage.

Re: The case against referenda (#8)

Excellent stuff! Much like calls for an immediate election because Brown has no 'mandate', the idea of having a referendum on the Reform treaty bares no practical scrutiny beyond the narrow agenda of opportunistic Conservatives.

The content of the Treaty is of a complex and technical nature designed for smoother administration of a supranational organisation. It has none of the symbolic overtones of a 'Constitution.'

Re: The case against referenda (#9)

Well if Gordon backs down on his promise to the voters to have a referendum and just ignores the public I think thats short sighted

On the Bright side Gordon and lbour has done sod all to our crap family law system for dads and just swept the whole issue under numbers 10, s carpet to date 

If european law comes in and adopts the same as in belgium,italy,spain,holland etc and have the same presumtion of shared residence/joint custody upon parental separation THEN is good and kicks the old biased uk family law system out the courts doors !!! 

Legal aid costs would dramatically drop because one parent couldnt alieanate the other because both parents have residence orders ! Marvelous law this !! Bring it on ! 

Re: The case against referenda (#10)

Argument (1.) is possibly the most frightening, anti-democratic and non-socialist things I have ever seen posted on Labourhome. It is *through* Parliament that the people are, or should be, sovereign.

Re: The case against referenda (#11)

But... Because Parliament borrows its power from the people, it has no right to give that power away without asking first.

Re: The case against referenda (#12)

How can G Brown be trusted on anything if he reneges on the manifesto promise to hold a referendum?  He denigrates the integrity of the whole labour party with his weasel words.

Re: The case against referenda (#13)

Because its a Treaty which can be ratified by Parliament. Mind you I'm in favour of using more local referenda to gauge the will of the people.

Re: The case against referenda (#14)

There is little honest dispute that the Treaty and the Constitution amount to the same thing in practice. The meaningless "red lines", (meaningless because they have the life expectancy of snow flake in a blast furnace),
were in place for the constitution as well.

The only reason the OEGK is trying to draw a distiction between is to weasel out of a manifesto commitment. Now you may support the treaty or have some more honest reason for not wanting to go ahead with a referendum but to pretend that Labour are not breaking their promise on this is dishonest. 

Re: The case against referenda (#15)

While it would be great to think that Britons are as equally caring about democracy as the Swiss, they'll be bored out of their bloody minds reading the treaty, because it will be to do with the running of the EU, and nothing to do with the masochistic loving or loathing of the EU that often forms peoples opinions.