Tough on Gun Crime ?? WHO,WHERE ,WHICH COUNTRY

Russ47 Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 08:41:38 PM GMT Print-friendly version Facebook

Another amnesty ?? Whens the next one ? When another poor child dies ?




Heard on BBC Radio news that the authorities are considering ANOTHER gun amnesty ? Kids said they are scared to just hand in guns etc to the Police for fear of being locked up ?

JESUS, how limp wristed can we expect the courts to remain in this day and age !
Fine , Have an amnesty BUT THEN after end of it ensure as the clock strikes the minute the amnesty ends THE LAW STARTS TO KICK IN

Make sure that as the clock strikes that hour then ANY PERSON caught in possession of any firearm replica or not is now going to serve a mandatory jail term , same with any person caught with a knife, Instead of the court having to prove intent to harm or main using the carried weapon make it that the accused has to prove to the judge AND JURY the reason for acrrying it was justifiable and NOT for fear of being attacked etc
Lots of persons walk the streets in fear of assault BUT we dont all walk around with knives, guns etc in our pockets ?

SEVERE LAW FOR WEAPONS NOW , pass the owness onto the person that as soon as he/she walks out their door with a weapon concealed on them if caught straight to jail for a few years at least !!    


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Tough on Gun Crime ?? WHO,WHERE ,WHICH COUNTRY | 25 comments (25 topical)

Re: Tough on Gun Crime ?? WHO,WHERE ,WHICH COUNTRY (#1)

by Angiem on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 09:47:48 PM GMT

 Yes I do think it has got to the point that there should be tough measures if someone is found in possession of a weapon. I also think that something must be done about the fact that miscreants are able to hide behind their youth as protection. Because of the level of protection given to under 18s they think they are untouchable. I know of adults who when challenging a youths behavior have been taunted with this. I think that they should at least be named in the press as any adult would be if nothing else. In the case of serious crimes I think someone of 14 should be treated as seriously as an adult. 14 is old enough to know that stabbing and shooting people is wrong.


Re: Tough on Gun Crime ?? WHO,WHERE ,WHICH COUNTRY (#2)

by NorthernMonkey on Sun Aug 26, 2007 at 10:50:54 PM GMT

It's all easier said than done.


The trouble with this country is that it tends to go hysterical when bad things happen and forces governments to take radical action which we end up regretting months down the line when things have calmed down.


Rather than demand immediate action and use macho-politics, it's better to look at the current laws rationally and calmly and decide what needs to be done.


I agree that laws need to be strengthened and tougher punishments need to be handed out - but I'd rather the government acts responsibly and only passes laws which a) the public will be willing to accept in the future when things have calmed down (so no erosion of civil liberties like scrapping the Human Rights Act) and b) actually works rather than just looking tough but achieving nothing.


Let the Tories campaign on how we are in 'anarchy', or how 'society has collapsed' or even how the four horsemen of the Apocalypse are appearing in the distance to tell us that the Armageddon is nigh if they wish. But the responsible Labour government should always act in a responsible, calm manner when tragedies occur - that's what wins trust at the end of the day and that's what will win us a 4th term victory.


Re: Tough on Gun Crime ?? WHO,WHERE ,WHICH COUNTRY (#3)

by Russ47 on Mon Aug 27, 2007 at 07:52:07 AM GMT

There is the answer in your reply , The Human rights Act is the culprit to a lot of this 
It needs scrapped and a new set of policy needs to be written encasing people that do not go around abusing other persons lives within the boundary of that new act not giving a giant umbrellas for the scum in society abusing peoples lives 
What happened to Borstals? They worked a few years back so lets have more of them open to teach kids to have respect and have disciplined lives 
Saying about "lets not rush new laws" we have too ! how many more kids and people have to die before we do what HAS to happen , Its us that write the law its not given down from some mysterious better being just for us to adhere to so its time for the laws to rewritten to stop this country becoming a worst place to live , Britain is seemingly now the worst country for looking after the elderly as well as being a child , How many more of these "awards" does the Goverment want ? before it acts ? before it wakes up ?
        


[ Parent ]

Re: Tough on Gun Crime ?? WHO,WHERE ,WHICH COUNTRY (#6)

by NorthernMonkey on Mon Aug 27, 2007 at 02:05:06 PM GMT

Are you seriously a Labour supporter - or just a Tory causing trouble? Because if you seriously think that life hasn't dramatically improved for the nation's children and elderly over the past 10 years, then I doubt your sanity.

It's not the Human Rights Act that is wrong - it is the Judge's decision. And judges will always get things wrong occasionally no matter what law is put in front of them.

If we did scrap the HRA and replaced it with some sort of Cameron-style Bill of Rights - would the Tories allow us to include an article banning capital punishment for example? Of course not.

The HRA stops the Tories from over-riding freedoms and human rights. It means that if the Tories ever get into power again, they can't bring back capital punishment or start discriminating against gays again. These rights are too important to be scrapped.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tough on Gun Crime ?? WHO,WHERE ,WHICH COUNTRY (#7)

by JM on Mon Aug 27, 2007 at 02:37:00 PM GMT

I think there's some confusion over what the HRA actually does.

It doesn't create new rights, it merley makes the rights laid out in the European Convention of Human rights enforcable in UK courts. These rights have always been enforcable since way before the HRA was passed, but people had to take their case to the European Court of Human Rights at Strasbourg.

It's also worth noting that neither the European Convention Human rights, which was drawn up in 1950 with British lawyers playing the largest role, and the European Court of Human Rights are anything to do with the European Union as is often implied by their opponents.

I know Wikipedia isn't definitive, but the basics are here:

Human Rights Act

European Convention on Human Rights

European Court of Human Rights 


[ Parent ]

Re: Tough on Gun Crime ?? WHO,WHERE ,WHICH COUNTRY (#9)

by Russ47 on Mon Aug 27, 2007 at 07:37:21 PM GMT

I have voted for labour in the past , I,m 47 now , have NEVER voted tory because of what maggie thatcher did to scotland with the poll tax years ago , I,m scottish but now live in england now 
I think the whole "game" of politicians isnt really "from the outside looking in" about standing and being the voice for the voters its about playing political football against the other side as northernmonkey makes clear in his statement about a labour supporter ? 
I dont need to be a supporter , I just want to see a politician that is the publics voice piece in parliament NOT some smug ha ha beat you that time person
I want to see someone that has b*lls to be that for the ordinary voter and voice what we the taxpayers want not the "supporters " of any party if thats what you want arrange a five aside football team between the blues and the reds please 
Labour and torys have done NOTHING about family law and look at how successful joint custody upon parental separation has been in europe ? whilst UK still helps dads to become "absent dads/Non resident parents " even though they are banging on the doors of family law courts to not be absent ? But the family justice system helps that to happen 
All these things are being swept under the carpet NOT dealt with and I,m sorry I do not think politicians regardless of party Northern Monkey give us our monies worth 
If we keep getting lip service from MP,S rather than showing they are being OUR VOICE then sorry vote of no confidence ?        


[ Parent ]

Re: Tough on Gun Crime ?? WHO,WHERE ,WHICH COUNTRY (#11)

by NorthernMonkey on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 06:51:03 PM GMT

But the British public doesn't speak with ONE voice Russ. We all have very different beliefs and ideas about how to tackle gun crime.


Today, Cameron went on about how we should ban violent computer games and songs with violent lyrics - I find that attitude completely deplorable.


I'd rather see crime stay the way it is than see the government become increasingly authoritarian and censoring the nation in what we can and cannot watch.


Whenever politicians act in a 'reactionary' fashion, they always get things wrong. They are either too extreme and unworkable. There are ways that laws can be toughened up and I agree that prison sentences for the worst offenders should be longer. But politicians should look at tackling crime in an intelligent, sensible manner rather than take part in macho-posturing and reactionary politics which is what Cameron did today.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tough on Gun Crime ?? WHO,WHERE ,WHICH COUNTRY (#12)

by Russ47 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 08:09:00 PM GMT

Northernmonkey I totally agree , We shouldnt even be tackling gun crime or appeasing the gang culture

This should be in the streets of america and on csi or something NOT our streets

The longer the our politicians stand back from saying severe jail terms for anyone carrying a weapon without a licence the more parents like rhys parents are going to suffer

Why should politicians spend time debating and figuring out whether drink driving limits should be zero alcohol when its just as evil and unlawful for anyone other than the armed services or Police tocarry a firearm/weapon , The car is just as dangerous a weapon , Guns/knives should be zero tolerance with minimum 5 years for possesion

If ever any person attacked or killed my child I admit I would NEVER EVER be as composed as the parents of rhys , I respect them for the way they have conducted their grief and commend them for it BUT I obviously dont have the same guts they have I would be wanting summary justice and would not rest  until it was served AND I,d expect the Law courts to do that but the law today ? Where ? I dont see justice I see anarchy really    


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Re: Tough on Gun Crime ?? WHO,WHERE ,WHICH COUNTRY (#13)

by JM on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 09:43:03 PM GMT

This is what I'm talking about. Cameron didn't just say that we should ban video games - he talked about a societal approach to these problems. We really should be paying attention to what he says on this.

He's thinking about going beyond the stereotypical right-wing view of tackling crime as the state beefing up enforcement and goind beyond the typical left-wing view of tackling crime through improving the lives of the poor. It's interesting stuff.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tough on Gun Crime ?? WHO,WHERE ,WHICH COUNTRY (#14)

by NorthernMonkey on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 02:07:34 AM GMT

But to be honest, I can't agree with the points he's making.

He wants to ban violent video games, come up with some nonsense about delaying bad teenager's driving licenses, put more restrictions on alcohol etc. - none of which I agree with.

If he wants to rid us of a violent society, then why didn't announce something productive like banning the smacking of children? That would do something to teach children that violence isn't the answer to solve your problems - but I doubt will hear any politician saying that anytime soon, sadly they're all lacking in bravery.

It was just the same old right-wing twaddle from Cameron - a load of nonsense.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tough on Gun Crime ?? WHO,WHERE ,WHICH COUNTRY (#4)

by JM on Mon Aug 27, 2007 at 11:47:50 AM GMT

For me, the reactions of Northern Monkey (who I often find says a lot I agree with) and Russ47 are exactly why debate on this subject is so stunted on the left. I look across the online copies of the Times, Telegraph and Mail and find dozens of comment pieces on what has gone wrong. I look across the Independent and Comment is Free sites and find next to nothing. Why is this?

Two points strike me about Northern Monkey's post. Firstly that he says we should not rush to legislate - that we should calmly consider what measures government should take and not engage in the knee-jerk legislation binges that we saw during the Blair years. I completely agree with on that. The only problem is that the left too often uses that as an argument to do nothing - gun crime, knife crime and the kind of random, violent killings that this the killing of Rhys highlights has been going on for years and nothing the government has done seems to have helped. If we say we want the government to calmly look at the options, we have to be ready to debate the end result of that contemplation a few months down the line and not be back here in six months banging on about Labour's "Daily Mail appeasement plans"

The second point about Northern Monkey's post is that it is entirely about legislation and government action. Much as I hate to agree with him, Cameron's talk about this being a problem for everyone to help solve rather than just government is correct. Jenni Russell, in what I think is one of the best article's I've read on Comment is Free, argued that the left has allowed civility in society to become an issue which only the right were prepared to deal with. The Observer's serialisation of Andrew Anthony's new book has two sections (here and here) on the left's response to crime as being about the state dealing with the criminal and ignoring what individual's in society can, should or be obliged to do. (All three of the links above are well worth reading - Anthony's book isn't, as some would have you believe just about the Iraq War).

So why do we on the left seem so keen for the state alone to tackle of crime and why are we often so quick to assume that, when the state does so, that it is overreacting? I believe the reason is because of people like Ross47 who make us think that being tougher on crime or wanting individuals to do more to tackle crime is synonymous with getting rid of the HRA, bringing back borstals, or defending the rights of citizens to do whatever they like to burglars. Like the economic debates in the 80s, where Thatcher thought saw state action in the economic field as tantamount to communism and the left of the Labour Party saw an acceptance of anything beyond the bare minimum of the market as selling out to the right, the left's crime debate seems to have been polarised between extremes - if you don't think that the government is overreacting to crime, you must be one of those people who's for bringing back national service and borstals.

I'll wait to be accused of setting up straw men - and that's true to some extent. "The Left" and "The Right" are not homogenous blocks and not everyone is so polarised. But I think there's enough truth in the generalisations to be worthy of debate.


Re: Tough on Gun Crime ?? WHO,WHERE ,WHICH COUNTRY (#5)

by Angiem on Mon Aug 27, 2007 at 01:25:48 PM GMT

 I agree that people should not just sit on their hands and look to the state for all the answers. I do think that David Cameron's comments are worth debating. Is there anywhere else you would like to take the debate on this?  I agree that new angles on this do need to be explored.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tough on Gun Crime ?? WHO,WHERE , (#10)

by TonyH on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:53:45 PM GMT

An excellent post JM.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tough on Gun Crime ?? WHO,WHERE ,WHICH COUNTRY (#8)

by stuartm on Mon Aug 27, 2007 at 05:21:01 PM GMT

Surely the point is that a rush to further legislation won't work since legislation is not the answer to the problem of disaffected youths. We need to understasnd that the killers of that young boy are teenagers who we as a society have to be responsible for.

Yes we must find those responsible and punish them, but then what. We need more emphasis on restorative justice. More education in prison. More and better rehabilitation. More and better Youth provision.   


Re: Tough on Gun Crime ?? WHO,WHERE ,WHICH COUNTRY (#15)

by jkitleft on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 12:12:18 PM GMT

We have to be careful that tragic cases like the one involving Rhys Jones doesn't lead to rash decisions because of moral hysteria. I think Nick Cohen covered another case of moral hysteria quite well at the start of Pretty Straight Guys.


The Jamie Bulger case led to a mob almost lynching a 12-year old suspect with the war cry 'Hang him'. There was a call for reinstating the birch. All the arguements which followed reinstating corporal punishment, hanging or national service went alongside comments from Major and comments made by Blair, seeming to sum up a mood. The mood was, 'Is this the state of our country?'


A similar mood comes along now, where papers have called Croydon 'Little Manhatten' after one murder took place. Our inner cities are being compared to Downtown Central LA. These charges are rediculous.


I think we need to have calm heads when we walk into the debate on crime. The Jamie Bulger case can't be explained by poverty or the breakdown of the family. Some crimes can't be explained by these arguements either. While I think that poverty is the root of many crimes, I don't think it explains all crimes, so we have to remember that.


Re: Tough on Gun Crime ?? WHO,WHERE ,WHICH COUNTRY (#16)

by JM on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 12:27:36 PM GMT

I agree but, equally, we shouldn't we let our desire to avoid rash decisions or moral hysteria from doing anything - something which I think tend to be a problem with us on the left.

On your last paragraph, I agree that not all crimes can be explained through poverty of family/societal breakdown. However, again, it's worth keeping in mind that violent crime has quadrupelled since 1982. I refuse to believe that the number of unexplainable 'just plain evil' people has quadrupelled in that time, so there must to factors at work that we can do something about. As I mentioned before, we shouldn't let our laudable desire to avoid rash decisions or moral hysteria stop us from taking a hard look at those factors and doing something about them.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tough on Gun Crime ?? WHO,WHERE ,WHICH COUNTRY (#17)

by jkitleft on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 04:37:35 PM GMT

I also agree that there seems to be a correlation between crime and poverty, just not in all cases is it because of poverty. Social mobility, Crime, Communities, Inner-cities, Youth culture, all things that inter-link into what may be the biggest issue in the UK today, and we need to make decisions, but I don't think their should be political posturing about who's tougher on crime just to take advantage of a tragic succession of crimes.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tough on Gun Crime ?? WHO,WHERE ,WHICH COUNTRY (#18)

by Russ47 on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 07:53:01 PM GMT

We have gone down the pacifist route and thats whats brought the country to its knees
Its time for the Judicial system to wake up , Why worry about the person arrested or locked up ? thats what the rehabiltion of offenders act is for to make sure they have learned there lesson and are prepared to become proper memebers of society again 
I want to see the innocent protected from idiots that dont give a damn about others and have a legal system that appreciates the innocent as victim NOT the accused for having a bad life 
If it was good enough in years gone by and we had less of what we are going through now then bin the HRA        


[ Parent ]

Re: Tough on Gun Crime ?? WHO,WHERE ,WHICH COUNTRY (#19)

by NorthernMonkey on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 12:32:56 AM GMT

But we are not going down the pacifist route at all - we already lock up more people than anywhere else in Europe. And as has already been shown in this week's papers, the country goes hysterical when bad things happen.

Whilst prisoners don't deserve sympathy, you can't say we shouldn't give a damn about them - they have the same human rights as the rest of us whether we like it or not. That's the sign of a civilised society.

And in my opinion, rehabilitation of prisoners in this country is very poor. When they leave prison, half of them are still on drugs, still desperately unhealthy, uneducated and many have serious mental health problems which are just ignored whilst they are in prison. All this needs to be fundamentally changed to make prison work.

I'm not against longer sentences for murderers or rapists and I would like to see parole scrapped for those individuals, but any calls for human rights to be breached or scrapped (like scrapping the HRA) is completely unacceptable to me.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tough on Gun Crime ?? WHO,WHERE ,WHICH COUNTRY (#20)

by Russ47 on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 06:14:07 AM GMT

 "half of them are still on drugs, still desperately unhealthy, uneducated and many have serious mental health problems "

Is that prisoners or politicians ????

I take it you will be sad to a referendum remove the HRA then?
It needs to scrapped to get the namby pamby cotton wool limp policies put in the bin where they should have been years ago  


[ Parent ]

Re: Tough on Gun Crime ?? WHO,WHERE ,WHICH COUNTRY (#21)

by JM on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 10:07:20 AM GMT

This is the problem I'm talking about. Northern Monkey thinks we're already being too tough. And Ross thinks we're not being tough enough.

I'm saying that we need to be tougher, but not in the way Ross thinks. 


[ Parent ]

Re: Tough on Gun Crime ?? WHO,WHERE ,WHICH COUNTRY (#22)

by NorthernMonkey on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 01:55:48 PM GMT

No, that's not true JM. I also think we are not tough enough.


But if we are to get 'tougher', I do not believe that human rights should be eroded in the process. I'm absolutely against the removal of the HRA.

I'd prefer longer sentances for the worst crimes, the removal of parole, fewer 'luxuries' in prison (eg. get rid of the playstations and sky TV in cells, ban them from smoking etc.) but more humane treatment for prisoners (eg. get them off drugs, help those with mental health issues, give them the right to vote, stop all of the rapes and beatings that go on in prison, educate them etc.)


Prison and the justice system needs great reform (and preferably made tougher) but human rights should not be eroded at all in the process.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tough on Gun Crime ?? WHO,WHERE ,WHICH COUNTRY (#23)

by JM on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 02:47:45 PM GMT

My apologies.

I thought you were saying something else.

As I said before, I think there's a false dichotomy between people arguing for Daily Mail type toughness and Guardian type understanding, social repair and rehabilitiation. We need rehabilitation and that sort of thing, but that shouldn't be allowed to be a soft option.


[ Parent ]

Tough on Gun Crime ?? WHO,WHERE ... (#25)

by TonyH on Tue Sep 04, 2007 at 01:11:03 PM GMT

Wouldn't it be far better if the catchphrase was "Effective on Crime" rather than tough?

I flat out don't understand prisons. Despite the money we spend on them, despite the control of each building, despite the fact that rehabilition is at least as important a part of the penal system as punishment, despite the fact that crime is the country's favourite political topic - despite all this...drugs still get into prisons.

I know it's not only the UK in which this happens but think for a moment what that says about our ability to manage crime and reduce drug use:

The most devastating product to a person's development is rife among the criminals at the very opportune moment we should be rehabilitating them - and it all happens in an environment we "control".

It just beggars belief when you think about how, if drug use was stopped in prison, we'd actually turn some of these people around. Train them - give them an income option to work rather than steal.

And all the while, when the rest of us are chewing our ties in frustration, the Tories can't shut up about how "anarchic" the world is (thus mitigating any bit of progress we do make), and we can't even agree what progress looks like!


[ Parent ]

Can we make Gun Control work? (#24)

by jkitleft on Tue Sep 04, 2007 at 11:57:42 AM GMT

I have read statistics which show in many countries, gun crime has got worse after restrictive gun laws. Since the UK's ban on private handguns in 1997, injuries from firearms have more than doubled. Jamaica saw gun-related crime accelerate after it's ban on handguns. But Australia saw a 47% drop in firearm-related deaths after gun restrictions there. So I ask, can we, and if so, how, can we make Gun Control work in the UK?


Tough on Gun Crime ?? WHO,WHERE ,WHICH COUNTRY | 25 comments (25 topical)