Is Gordon sucking up to the Daily Mail too much?

NorthernMonkey Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 07:54:13 PM GMT Print-friendly version Facebook

Whilst we're clearly doing quite well under Brown at the moment, I must confess that I'm not entirely happy with the direction that he's taking us in with respect to social issues.



Gordon's already seen an end to supercasinos and all the regeneration and job creation that would have come with them. Last week we heard about his plans to consider re-classifying cannabis. And as has been shown in some adverts on this site, the Criminal Justice Bill planned for October wants to make viewing certain types of 'obscene' pornogrpahy a criminal offence even if it contains consenting adults and no actual harm has occurred.

But now Gordon's gone all moral yet again. Astonishly, I read in this morning's Guardian that he's going to 'review' the liberalised drinking laws brought in a couple of years ago. In English, that means he's going to completely reverse the changes and bring back the same old restrictive laws we had for decades.

http://society.guardian.co.uk/drugsandalcohol/story/0,,2133310,00.html

Does Gordon not think that if alcohol is legal, then it should be up to adults to decide at what time of day they choose to drink it? Similarly, I firmly believe that it's up to adults to choose if they wish to gamble, not the government.

Brown's doing himself no favours in the long run by doing this. It's just backing up the claims that he's a control freak who believes in the nanny state.

I'm sure most people didn't join the Labour party to be a social conservative (I know I didn't). So, it's incredibly frustrating to see this endless sucking up to Paul Dacre and the Daily Mail oiks.

Hopefully Brown will see some sense, but at the moment he seems hell-bent on destroying any sense of tolerance and liberty we've built up over the past 10 years.

What do you lot think?



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Is Gordon sucking up to the Daily Mail too much? | 22 comments (22 topical)

Re: Is Gordon sucking up to the Daily Mail (#1)

by jkitleft on Wed Jul 25, 2007 at 12:51:27 PM GMT

I do not like the moral compass which Brown is using on these issues.


Re: Is Gordon sucking up to the Daily Mail (#2)

by MM on Wed Jul 25, 2007 at 09:16:55 PM GMT

Totally agree with the sentiments expressed in this post.

Nick Robinson has a good post today on this subject:
'Lurching right':
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/nickrobinson/2007/07/lurching_right.html

My other major concern about Brown is the fact that we appear to be slowing down public service reform, their seems a real attempt to water down some Blairite reforms in education/health.  Many will argue this is necessary, but will we really improve public services by just pumping billions of taxpayers money into them each year?  Can we really go into the next election saying we are going x billion more than the Tories again, surely we need to show more sophistcated improvements.

Fraser Nelson sums it up well in last weeks Spectator:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/the-magazine/the-week/52028/politics.thtml


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Re: Is Gordon sucking up to the Daily Mail (#3)

by notsure on Wed Jul 25, 2007 at 09:32:38 PM GMT

Lots of talk that much of Brown's activity is designed to reach out to middle class voters.
The message heard on numerous doorsteps in Ealing was that the working class vote is being taken for granted, people feel let down, and why should they vote Labour any more?
Some go Lib Dem, so don't vote, some (worryingly) go BNP. Wherever they go it's not good, and taking a certain section of society for granted is dangerous.


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Re: Is Gordon sucking up to the Daily Mail (#4)

by NorthernMonkey on Wed Jul 25, 2007 at 10:29:16 PM GMT

I agree MM. Brown seems to want to ditch the Blair reforms that are really worth keeping.

We can't just stand still on education and health and hope to get away with it.

This is why it worries me that the media are giving Brown such a good time at the moment because things like this keep slipping through the net without anyone noticing.


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Re: Is Gordon sucking up to the Daily Mail (#5)

by MM on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 02:11:04 AM GMT

This article in the awful Sunday Mirror sum's up the attitude of the Brownites since they took over, there has been a concentrated attempt to trash Blair and his record.  I realise that Brown needs to project 'change', but ditching sensible policies such as drugs classification and 24-hour drinking which have been thought through is very danagerous.

Gord: Get rid of Tony's gimmicks (Find policies to ditch he tells ministers)
http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/sunday/2007/07/22/exclusive-gord-get-rid-of-tony-s-gimmicks-98487 -19493426/

The real concern is that the media is simply distracted by all of Brown's various 'eye catching schemes' to see what he is doing in health and education as you say.

The announcement yesterday by Alan Johnson that a major contract with a private company to provide NHS diagnostic service has been axed went pretty much unreported.  Even more concerning was that their would be no third wave of independent sector treatment centres (ISTCs) imposed by central government which have done so much to reduce waiting lists.  Do Johnson and Brown and think that simply by ordering a year long consultation and being nice to NHS staff, they will become more productive?  If Brown really wants GPs to work more out of hour services he is going to have to face them down and force through new contracts.  If he wants to increase productivty of surgeons etc he is going to have to introduce more performance related pay based contracts.  I expect Brown's plan is to pander to the unions by stopping 'reform' over the course of the forthcoming review.  The new Chancellor will announce at CSR that the NHS will get extra spending.  Further announcements will be made on tricky problems such as MRSA and dirty wards and some sort of fix will be made to GP's working hours.  But I expect proper reforms will be ducked.

Similar ducking of challenges are occuring in education, it's a tradegy that academies have been put back into control of LEA's.  The whole point of them was to free them from the education establishment.


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Re: Is Gordon sucking up to the Daily Mail (#6)

by NorthernMonkey on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 03:50:05 AM GMT

Indeed - Brown distinctly said he was going to carry on with the Academies, but what he neglected to tell everyone was that he would forbid any independence for them - which kind of defeats the point of them.

Exasperating times.


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Re: Is Gordon sucking up to the Daily Mail (#7)

by grimupnorth on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 11:40:10 AM GMT

Nothing  left  or right  about gambling and anti-social drinking. Actually, I applaud Brown's stance  on the supercasino AND calls for a  tougher tax  on drink. Alcohol  is far too cheap ( far more so than   in my youth) and we need to curb  it somehow. Frankly, much as i disagree with a lot of his policies,  he's getting this stuff right. People were sick  of Blair's sucking up to consumer culture so,  on this occasion,  let's  hear it for Gordon!


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Re: Is Gordon sucking up to the Daily Mail (#8)

by jkitleft on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 11:49:10 AM GMT

I'm moderately against 24-hour licenses and supercasinoes, but we have to give people that freedom. I agree the price of drink needs to be raised. You're right that theres nothing left or right about this issue, those against gambling might be those concerned about poverty on the left, those traditionalist from the right, and people for gambling might be those fighting for jobs on the left, those who are more consumerist on the right.


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Re: Is Gordon sucking up to the Daily Mail (#9)

by NorthernMonkey on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 02:52:48 PM GMT

You're right to say that it's not necessarily a left-right issue, but it is an issue of whether you're socially conservative or socially liberal - Brown is the former, whilst I would have hoped that most in the Labour party (including me) are the latter.

What you call 'Blair's sucking up to consumer culture', I would call 'Blair giving people the freedom to live their lives without unnecessary interference or nanny-state moralising'.

It is very disappointing to see a social conservative as PM - we may as well have a Tory in office. Even though it's not a left-right issue, it is without doubt that those in the Labour party are generally more socially liberal than the Tories.

And whilst Labour PM's like Tony Blair and Harold Wilson will be remembered for increasing people's freedoms (gay rights, anti-censorship, gambling etc.), Brown will be remembered more for taking those freedoms away.

Religion and politics do not mix and Brown should leave his puritanical Presbytarian views at home and not take them to work with him.


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Re: Is Gordon sucking up to the Daily Mail (#10)

by grimupnorth on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 06:26:33 PM GMT

Lesbian  and  gay rights, actually,  were very  much a "left" issue  first  on the agenda  during the 1980s  in the  days of left councils  like  the GLC and Manchester,  Hardly  Blair's  idea.......there is also a bit of a difference   between sexual freedoms  and the "right" to gamble oneself  stupid  24 /7 and drink oneself  into an early  grave thanks to the wealthy  lobbyists  in the drinks/drugs/gambling  trade.The "nanny state" argument is VERY  Daily Mail. As  Tony Benn  has often said, the labour  Party  owes more to Methodism than Marxism. Brown merely continues that tradition.....


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Re: Is Gordon sucking up to the Daily Mail (#11)

by MM on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 07:04:46 PM GMT

But on a simple level, what's wrong with with having more liberal licensing laws with regards to drinking establishments?  (24/7 drinking is actually a myth because the majority of establishment's actually just went for extra opening hours that the majority of their customers wanted).

Do we really think that returning pubs to traditional closing times will reduce drinking?  The whole point of making things more liberal was a) to give consumers more choice, b) to help police and I think most people would agree that has happened.

On drugs, do people really think that putting cannabis back to class b will reduce it's consumption?  Is Brown really promising to pump billions into extra police and prision places to enforce the crackdown?  The whole reason of downgrading cannabis was to allow police to focus on more serious drugs.

On gambling, is Brown going to crackdown on Internet gambling? A far more and accessiable form of gambling than say super casino's.  The ditching of super casino's was just gesture politics, I find it rather amusing how many ardent critics of Mr Blair's have been taken in by Gordon Brown's 'spin' of the last month.


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Re: Is Gordon sucking up to the Daily Mail (#12)

by jkitleft on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 07:32:38 PM GMT

I agree with MM, and Northern Monkey, and Grim, and that drives me crazy.

Northern Monkey, I often remember Blair for taking some freedoms away, but I acknowledge his push for more freedom in Pubs, Casinoes, and Gambling.

MM is right in saying that there isn't necessarily reason to believe that Cannabis smoking will go down, if it is reclassified.

Grim is right in saying that LBGT rights are a left issue.
Since the 1960's, the Left, on both sides of the Atlantic, have adopted identity politics. It has fought noble battles, to de-segregate the south, to get equal pay for women, to de-criminalise homosexuality, etc. etc. it seems to be that, the more centrist of the Left (that doesn't make any sense), take this higher in their agenda. Now, let's not twist what I'm saying, I'm not saying that the more left-wing are more bigoted/prejudiced, but it seems that it is not often as much at the top of their agenda, as it is for the centrist liberals. Clinton's first (but unsuccessful) battle, was to reverse the bans on gays in the military. They can now serve in the military, get civil partnerships, adopt, the age of consent is lowered etc. after 1997. The Left heartily supported these moves. But their concerns have always been more orientated towards globilisation, renationalising the railways etc. etc. This is not a criticism, but just a point, something I have picked up on.


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Re: Is Gordon sucking up to the Daily Mail (#13)

by NorthernMonkey on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 03:19:55 AM GMT

I would agree with that jkitleft.

I'm probably 'centrist left' and I'm far more ideologically attached to these 'social issues' than I am to economic ones and they matter a great deal to me.

How a PM reacts to giving people freedoms (or taking them away) is a way I fundamentally judge them. Where as on economic issues, I can be quite flexible providing it broadly follows on from Labour principles.


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Re: Is Gordon sucking up to the Daily Mail (#15)

by Lorin on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 08:20:55 AM GMT

I'm against 24 hour drinking because more people are binge drinking and more people are coming to the NHS for treatment and costing the tax payer money.
I supported Gordon's U turn on casinos because I don't beleive in them and they cause addiction and dispite all the jobs it would create it would also have other impacts.
I don't know what Brown's position on LBGT rights is because he wasn't bovered to vote on them.I'm very supportive of LBGT rights.
Despite all of Blair's liberalism he still had Ruth Kelly in the cabinet and so does Brown.

I never understood the logic in banning gays from the military seeing as the greatest military commander of all times was gay.... as our american allies say:go figure


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Re: Is Gordon sucking up to the Daily Mail (#14)

by NorthernMonkey on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 03:29:03 AM GMT

It's wrong to assume that those who prefer to see fewer restrictions on drinking or gambling for example are doing so only to satisfy the demands of wealthy lobbyists - it's just a case of whether you are socially liberal or socially conservative. Brown, unfortunately seems to be socially conservative.

I wouldn't say the 'nanny state' argument can only be used by the Daily Mail - anybody, left or right, can use it if they believe there is too much unnecessary government influence.

Is it really appropriate to follow this 'Methodist' line any longer as a party? As I stated before, religion and politics don't mix and it disturbs me to see puritanical views used to crackdown on 'social ills'.

As for gay rights, Brown really hasn't exactly proven himself on that one. Many have commented that he simply isn't committed to them and he hasn't proposed any further equality measures yet (like same-sex marriage, criminalising incitement for hatred against gays etc. - all of which are necessary for true equality).

And given that you believe in sexual freedom, then surely you'll agree that the part of the Criminal Justice Bill planned for October which criminalises possession of certain types of pornography (eg. S&M) even though it can have taken place using consenting adults and no actual criminal act has occurred in it, discriminates against sexual minorities and breaches human rights?


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Re: Is Gordon sucking up to the Daily Mail (#16)

by jkitleft on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 11:06:41 AM GMT

social liberalsim and social conservatism, is the dividing line in politics. In America, the 'Rockefeller Republicans', often use the arguement, 'I'm socially liberal, but more conservative on other issues'. 'Blue Dog Democrats', will have at least one social liberal issue (and then at least one economic liberal issue). These however are the more mavericks of the party.

The Rockefellers will more often than not, vote against FMA, Flag Burning amendment, for Stem-cell research etc. etc.. The Blue-Dog Democrats will more often than not be the reverse on these issues.

The point of this is to show that most of the time, with the exception of the above groups, the Democrats are socially liberal, the Republicans are socially conservative. I think this is why even the more centrist within our ranks are getting angry


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Re: Is Gordon sucking up to the Daily Mail (#17)

by grimupnorth on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 11:35:23 AM GMT

I  couldn't  give   a fig  about supercasinos  or 24-hour drinking . These are not "freedoms"  they are addictions. I support  lesbian/gay rights, sexual  freedoms  and so  on....what angers  me about Brown  is his complete acceptance  of the capitalist pro-business agenda.which   of course is another topic entirely........


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Re: Is Gordon sucking up to the Daily Mail (#18)

by NorthernMonkey on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 09:21:01 PM GMT

I don't agree with any prohibitionist argument where alcohol and gambling are seen as mere 'addictions'. If alcohol is to be legal, it seems completely ridiculous and unacceptable to me that the government tells people at what time of day they can drink it. And whilst some people can become addicted to gambling, the vast majority don't and in my opinion, their liberal rights to freedom outweigh the loss to society of a few gambling addicts. People can generally become addicted to anything - it doesn't mean we should ban everything in sight that could cause harm.

It's interesting that you see Brown as 'capitalist, pro-business'. Given his lack of taste for reforms, I'd say he's anything but that.


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Re: Is Gordon sucking up to the Daily Mail (#19)

by jkitleft on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 09:36:48 PM GMT

also, restricting drinking hours, won't restrict drinking, infact, and dangerously, it can push people into drinking alone at home, before waiting for the pub to open.


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Re: Is Gordon sucking up to the Daily Mail (#20)

by NorthernMonkey on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 09:56:13 PM GMT

Exactly. That's also why we used to see fights on the streets at 11pm when all the pubs closed and 2am when all the clubs closed.

The liberalised laws changed all that for the better, so there's no good reason why Brown should change them back again.


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Re: Is Gordon sucking up to the Daily Mail (#21)

by doctordunc on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 02:17:18 PM GMT

I agree with that - but it's not actually a social liberal/social conservative issue - it's just an expedience issue.  Licensees can close their premises when they like: handing over powers from governments to licensees is not a liberalisation it's just a change.  The issue is what works.  For me, a so-called 'liberalised' approach works simply because the evening ends at differerent times for different people.  The idea that anything else infringes people's rights is a nonsense, however.  As such, to suggest that super-casinos is a social liberal/social conservative issue is a nonsense.


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Re: Is Gordon sucking up to the Daily Mail (#22)

by NorthernMonkey on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 04:04:17 PM GMT

I really can't agree with that - it is certainly to do with social liberalism or conservatism. If people are willing to allow gambling, extended drinking hours, gay rights etc. - they would typically be defined as being socially liberal. And those on the right who crackdown against 'social ills' like so-called family breakdown, drinking, gambling, prostitution etc. are by their very nature, socially conservative.

That's like saying the economic changes that Thatcher brought in were not conservative values over socialist values - they were just 'changes'. We know it's not as simple as that.


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Is Gordon sucking up to the Daily Mail too much? | 22 comments (22 topical)