Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour

Glass House Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 09:21:32 PM GMT Print-friendly version Facebook

Osama Bin Laden's deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri, has threatened to retaliate against Britain for giving a knighthood to novelist Salman Rushdie.



Leaving aside whether you think his books are any good, what does everyone think?

Should we honour who we like and not pay any attention to men like al-Zawahiri? Or should we be careful not to provoke?

Does this go some way to proving that these people are not, as some believe, just motivated by 'injustice' wrought upon them by the west (Kashmir, troops in Saudi Arabia, Iraq etc.) but are actually driven by an ideology which demands retribution for something as innocuous as honouring an author they disapprove of?

I know some people think it was a deliberate attempt to provoke a response. Does anyone here?

Thoughts? 



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Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour | 37 comments (37 topical)

Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#1)

by Sensible Comrade on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 10:32:55 PM GMT

Surely there isn't anyone around here stupid enough to believe that Islamist fanatics like Bin Laden and al-Zawahiri are motivated primarily by a humanitarian sense of injustice? Only Respect-supporting student types use that sort of thinking. These people are religious lunatics and we should not be willing to surrender essential freedoms just to keep them happy. Rushdie should still be given his honour, despite the inevitable angering of intellectually stunted Muslims (as opposed to the intelligent ones) around the world.


But despite this, I have read some interesting articles from sane people arguing that 'Al Qaeda' as a global movement cannot simply be dismissed as an enemy with which it is impossible to compromise. I think it should be possible to take the wind out of the sails of the Jihadists by recognising legitimate grievances but without surrendering to the extremist agenda. For example, finding a solution to Israel-Palestine. Or ending support for dictatorships such as that in Saudi Arabia. Too many Muslims around the world have a victimhood mindset which turns their sympathies against US/UK/Israel and towards the zealots of Al Qaeda. Western states can make positive steps to undermine this situation.


Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#2)

by NorthernMonkey on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 11:41:37 PM GMT

It would be astonishing to think that any British person would think that we should change our policies (and indeed change our honours system) to suit the views of some religious fanatics.


The bottom line is that Al-Qaeda members loathe the West and will use any excuse possible to boost their propaganda and encourage terrorism against the West. Rushdie's knighthood is cowardly being used as one of these excuses.


Of course the UK should continue to give honours to whoever it sees fit, without worrying about upsetting a few fundamentalists. 


Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#3)

by Radford Mann on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 02:21:11 PM GMT

Give Rushdie his knighthood.


In the longer term, get rid of all honours completely. It would certainly deal with the cash for honours problem! Also, kick the bishops out of the Lords, replace the Lords with a wholly elected (by PR) revising senate and, while we're at it, get rid of the monarchy as well. Now that's what I would call constitutional reform.


Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#4)

by Curlew on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 02:54:34 PM GMT

I suppose we could ask ourselves the question: If Rushdie had never written that book would we have ever heard of him and so would he have ever been given the K?




Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#5)

by otware on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 07:11:42 PM GMT

This whole thing has been ridiculous. Screw Rushdie, giving him a knighthood is more trouble than it's worth.


Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#6)

by Glass House on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 07:49:17 PM GMT

But isn't taking the 'trouble' terrorists might cause into account when deciding on honours simply giving into them?

If we're prepared to change who we give honours to to avoid terrorist 'trouble', where do you draw the line?

 


[ Parent ]

Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#7)

by otware on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 07:57:17 PM GMT

 

But it's debatable that he deserves an honour anyway. I don't accept that taking logical steps to try and avoid antagonising the Muslim world yet more than we already have is 'giving in to them'.

 

I'd rather Rushdie has no honour than there being the slightest chance of another terrorist attack relating to that honour, especially considering the recent surge in UK terrorist activity.


[ Parent ]

Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#8)

by Glass House on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 08:05:10 PM GMT

"I'd rather Rushdie has no honour than there being the slightest chance of another terrorist attack relating to that honour, especially considering the recent surge in UK terrorist activity."

Ok, let's do this...

I'd rather we didn't do X than there being the slightest chance of another terrorist attack relating to X, especially considering the recent surge in UK terrorist activity.

At what point does X become too important to change our minds on? 


[ Parent ]

Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#9)

by Glass House on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 08:07:40 PM GMT

And, by saying that we're willing to change our ways if X is a Rushdie honour, doesn't that send a message to terrorists that they should start demanding we change more and more things - expecting us to continue to do so?


[ Parent ]

Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#11)

by otware on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 10:21:24 PM GMT

Hmm let's put this in perspective, it's a knighthood for an author. It's the very definition of trivial.

 But yeh I can see that it would send out a message if the government were seen to backtrack now. My point is that they should not have put Rushdie down for an honour in the first place. They should have forseen this.


[ Parent ]

Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#10)

by Sensible Comrade on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:56:39 PM GMT

The debate on whether Rushdie deserves an honour is, as I think the original post states, irrelevant. It is not reasonable to want to kill people because of what someone has written in a book. They are the religious lunatics and they should not be appeased. Instead of giving in to the hardliners we need to form a strategy of dividing mainstream Muslim opinion from the zealots. This would obviously involve serious issues such as Israel/Palestine, not Rushdie being given a knighthood. Cancelling his honour would send out the wrong message.


[ Parent ]

Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#12)

by otware on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 10:52:39 PM GMT

I'm not suggesting cancelling his honour. I'm saying he should never have been given an honour in the first place.

 Just because Islamic extremeists are enemies of the west doesn't mean that we should go out of our way to pick fights with them.


[ Parent ]

Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#13)

by Glass House on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 11:06:10 PM GMT

Isn't saying that the views of Islamic extremists should be taken into account when deciding who gets an honour the start of a slippary slope?

If you decided to do that, where does it stop? 


[ Parent ]

Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#14)

by otware on Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 12:21:49 AM GMT

It's all very well being high and mighty about it, but at a time when our relations with the Muslim world are about the worst since the crusades...it's not brightest move to start antagonising them by giving a knighthood to a man many of them hate.

 I'm not justifying their view, and certainly in an ideal world he would be free to have an honour whenever the government wants to give him one. But in an ideal world we would never have invaded Iraq, and handled the post 9/11 climate differently...

In the future, when some of this has blown over then they should give him an honour if they want. But right now this does not help things in any way. It's not about appeasing Bin Laden. It's about protecting British troops from car bombs in Iraq and from the Taleban, and about protecting the general public from more attempted terrorist attacks. 


[ Parent ]

Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#15)

by Glass House on Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 12:54:31 AM GMT

This isn't theoretical - if you don't draw the line at refusing to change anything we would have otherwise done to avoid pissing off Islamists, you have to draw it somewhere else.

It's like giving into to an Al-Queda demand for £1 in exchange for not attacking us this month. It may be a trivial amount and lives are certainly more important than such a trivial sum - but when they ask for £10 the next month, then £1000, £100,000, £1m, where do you stop?

Saying that giving in to pressure to not give Rushdie an honour is a small price to pay to avoid some risk to people's lives (even if we believe that the risk would be avoided) is the same logic. There's a higher principle involved - one that is not just theoretical. 


[ Parent ]

Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#16)

by Curlew on Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 09:40:57 PM GMT

I agree it's not reasonable to kill someone because of the content of a book, but I think that muslims are not that niaive to believe that this honour is purely for his writing skills.  They have taken it as a slight and as rubbing their nose in it.  Why didn't he turn it down? That is also a big surprise - maybe because he no longer lives in this country.

Is it also wrong for Iran to put in a book that Israel should no longer be on the map?

The genie is out of the bottle - too late to do anything about it - care should have been taken when the honours were approved - now Brown must deal with it.


[ Parent ]

Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#17)

by Glass House on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 09:35:48 AM GMT

Why should he turn it down? Why should the views of religious extremists be taken into account at all when deciding on who gets an honour?


[ Parent ]

Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#19)

by Curlew on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 10:11:09 AM GMT

So I take it glasshouse, that if you were in his shoes, you'd accept it and to hell with the (well anticipated)consequences.


[ Parent ]

Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#21)

by Glass House on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 10:24:31 AM GMT

Are you saying he's got some kind of moral duty to turn it down in an attempt to 'protect' his fellow citizens?


[ Parent ]

Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#23)

by Curlew on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 05:59:14 PM GMT

I'll take that as a yes.


[ Parent ]

Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#24)

by Glass House on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 06:22:30 PM GMT

Come on. Don't be like that. I asked you a question


[ Parent ]

Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#25)

by otware on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 08:47:48 PM GMT

If it were me I would turn it down. I would hate to think that my selfish desire for an honour could potentially kill people and destabilise relations between the UK and the muslim world even more.


[ Parent ]

Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#26)

by NorthernMonkey on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 10:43:58 PM GMT

But Rushdie isn't to blame is he? Why should he feel guilty about any potential murders or destabilisation - he's done nothing wrong? The only people who should feel guilty are the awful extremists who want to commit these attrocities.


[ Parent ]

Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#27)

by otware on Sat Jul 14, 2007 at 12:30:23 AM GMT

I'm not saying Rushdie has done anything wrong. I'm saying that if I were in his shoes I wouldn't accept the honour.

There are times that it is best to make a personal sacrifice such as this. You can't just go around doing whatever regardless of the consequences just because it's the easiest thing to do, or because it's what's expected of you.

 I'm sure Rushdie knows how controversial he is. Unless he strives to make himelf even more infamous I can't see why he'd risk even more death threats.


[ Parent ]

Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#18)

by Sensible Comrade on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 10:10:48 AM GMT

Are you trying to suggest that Rushdie has been given this honour as a deliberate attempt to annoy Muslim fanatics? Why is it naive to believe this honour would be purely for his writing skills? Rushdie has been a high profile member of the literary establishment for years. Fine, the fact that he has had to face death threats for religious nuts has been a huge influence on his reputation. But I think it is paranoid to see Rushdie as a weapon in the West's struggle with Islamist extremists!




[ Parent ]

Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#20)

by Curlew on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 10:13:15 AM GMT

Why is it naive to believe this honour would be purely for his writing skills?
 
Because if that were the case it would have be granted him some years ago?


[ Parent ]

Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#22)

by Sensible Comrade on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 02:34:43 PM GMT

Come off it! It takes a long time for the honours process to decide that someone is worthy of a knighthood or whatever. It's all a bit silly. I really think you are completely wrong on this one. By an extension of your logic it would be possible to argue that all the Labour MPs who voted in favour of the war should resign in an attempt to appease angry Muslim fundamentalists.


[ Parent ]

Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#28)

by jkitleft on Sat Jul 14, 2007 at 09:33:38 PM GMT

I'm reading Nick Cohen's book, 'What's Left?' at the moment. It's made me reconsider some of my views. I still believe the Iraq war was wrong. Not going to u-turn on that. And I am not going to u-turn on my beliefs, but have reconsidered my attitude to such views and beliefs. But Al-Qaeda dislike Rushdie because he dislikes religion. They dislike him because his books have been written in the face of fear, using his freedom of speech to express his devout secularism, which by the way, criticised Christianity as much as Islam. In a much more diluted scenario, it reminds me of a West Wing episode, in which there is controversy about someone being put on a stamp.


Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#29)

by Glass House on Sat Jul 14, 2007 at 09:40:38 PM GMT

An excellent book


[ Parent ]

Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#30)

by jkitleft on Sat Jul 14, 2007 at 09:45:27 PM GMT

and an excellent episode of TWW.


[ Parent ]

Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#31)

by Glass House on Sat Jul 14, 2007 at 10:15:26 PM GMT

Yeah, but every episode of the West Wing is excellent


[ Parent ]

Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#32)

by Loz on Sun Jul 15, 2007 at 12:19:56 AM GMT

I'll second that.

I unfortunately didn't catch it when it was on (may have been a few years too young) - however last year I purchased the series - all of them - and I'd finished it all within a few months.

Absolutely loved it.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to see a very similar and as well done series over here.


[ Parent ]

Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#34)

by jkitleft on Sun Jul 15, 2007 at 02:15:28 PM GMT

started a thread on IMDB about it!


[ Parent ]

Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#33)

by Lorin on Sun Jul 15, 2007 at 12:02:03 PM GMT

I havn't read Nick Cohen's book, but I also have made a sort of change, influenced by my long debate with Loz.
Like you I still oppose the Iraq war and think it was a great mistake, however I now have a more balanced view on many world affairs.

On the Rushdie affair: He should get his honour, I don't like his work but he should receive his honour, and we shouldn't be held to ransom by anyone who threatens us with violence.


[ Parent ]

Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#35)

by jkitleft on Sun Jul 15, 2007 at 02:33:57 PM GMT

people are always going to have different views on world affairs. I would have more sympathy for intervention in Burma, even if it was in the same circumstances of the Iraq war, because I have always been a supporter of Aung Sun Suu Kyi.

I have reconsidered many of my views as a 'democratic socialist', it doesn't mean I have lost my left-wing edge (George Orwell was a democratic socialist), but it allows me to think more rationally about opposing arguments, and makes me reconsider my arguments for being for or against a paticular argument.

I need to look more beyond the obvious, rather than having a knee-jerk reaction. For instance, after the endorsements of Sarkozy, i reacted negatively. I still believe it was bad to endorse him, and will probably never support his Thatcherite ideology, but even he has suprised me with the appointment of the founder of Medecins Ses Frontieres as his Foreign Minister. Loz, I still think Guliani is more conservative than he lets on. But I would vote for many Republicans ahead of Democrats. I would happily vote for Olympia Snowe, Susan Collins, Lincoln Chaffee, Mary Bono and others over Ben Nelson, Gene Taylor, Zell Miller and others.


[ Parent ]

Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#36)

by jkitleft on Sun Jul 15, 2007 at 02:35:06 PM GMT

'bad' and 'probably never support' are understatements.


[ Parent ]

Re: Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour (#37)

by newright on Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 04:55:40 PM GMT

 We don't need to try provoke islam and its followers, as just being free men/women, and by refusing to live in submisson to allah and his sharia  law as laid down by muhammad. we give them all the justifcation they need to attack us!

 And don't be fooled by this islam is peace propaganda, it is not, take a look at the history books and you will see islam has all ways been spread on the point of a sword.


Al-Qaeda and the Rushdie honour | 37 comments (37 topical)