Tony's Legacy?

Curlew Sun Jul 01, 2007 at 05:44:25 PM GMT Print-friendly version Facebook

US reporting vs UK Reporting



Interesting to note the US media reporting that the London bomb attempts were forewarned (by some 17 hours) on a jihad website:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/06/29/terror/main2997517.shtml

The story also features on the NY Times website. Apparently the attacks are a response to the knighting of Salman Rushdie.  But I suppose it's no surprise to Tony that this would happen.  Is this a shortcoming of UK intelligence yet again?




tags: (all tags)

Display: Sort:
Tony's Legacy? | 35 comments (35 topical)

Re: Tony's Legacy? (#1)

by jkitleft on Sun Jul 01, 2007 at 07:17:35 PM GMT

I'd like to point out that it is a superficial argument, to not welcome non-Labour figures into our cabinet, when if a car is rammed into Glasgow airport, and two car bombs are found in the heart of London, and we need people like Lord Stevens as a security advisor, even if he is known for being linked to the Tories.


Re: Tony's Legacy? (#2)

by jkitleft on Sun Jul 01, 2007 at 07:39:03 PM GMT

i'll change 'superficial' to 'trivial'


[ Parent ]

Re: Tony's Legacy? (#3)

by MM on Sun Jul 01, 2007 at 07:58:00 PM GMT

Why is it Tony's legacy?  If their are questions about the funding of our security services and police then they should surely be directed at the former Chancellor as well?  It's often been said that Blair got together the head's of the Security Services and asked if they had adequate resources. There response was that it was not a question of money but that it took time to train new intelligence officers and expand the service without harming quality.  The one question that Andrew Marr failed to put to Mr Brown this morning in a frankly awful interview was why the Home Office budget has been frozen for the next three years?


Re: Tony's Legacy? (#4)

by Glass House on Sun Jul 01, 2007 at 09:23:57 PM GMT

Why do you think this is Blair's legacy? Are you one of those people who think's that attacks on Britain are due to the Iraq War?


Re: Tony's Legacy? (#5)

by swatantra on Sun Jul 01, 2007 at 09:46:39 PM GMT

Anyone who can't see the link in the rise of terrorism and regime changes in Afghanistan and Iraq needs their brains tested.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tony's Legacy? (#6)

by Glass House on Sun Jul 01, 2007 at 09:48:37 PM GMT

And why would that be? Do you have any evidence linking increased terrorism in the west with these incidents other than one happening after the other?


[ Parent ]

Re: Tony's Legacy? (#7)

by jkitleft on Sun Jul 01, 2007 at 10:03:22 PM GMT

I used to think that all the attacks were based on the Iraq/Afghanistan wars. Of course London, Madrid, New York, Washington, Rome, Copenhagen, Tokyo or Sydney and other cities of countries who sent troops, are going to be under more threat.

However, this is an escalation, rather than a direct result of, the WOT. We are more of a target now. But the WTC was attacked in 1993, followed by the embassies in Nairobi and Tanzania in 1998, the USS cole in 2000. Paris and German cities have been the center of plots. Indonesia has been attacked numerous times (primarily targeting Australians), and so have other muslim countries like Saudi Arabia and Morroco. 

Also many countries are at threat of different targets of terrorism. Russia had it's own WOT on Chechynan rebels, and now cafes, restaurants and the subway are at target.

To conculde, it is not true to suggest that we are at threat solely because of the wars, nor is it true to suggest that the wars have nothing to do with the terrorism. The WOT has escelated, but not started the process of an increased terrorism threat in this country.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tony's Legacy? (#8)

by jkitleft on Sun Jul 01, 2007 at 10:03:22 PM GMT

I used to think that all the attacks were based on the Iraq/Afghanistan wars. Of course London, Madrid, New York, Washington, Rome, Copenhagen, Tokyo or Sydney and other cities of countries who sent troops, are going to be under more threat.

However, this is an escalation, rather than a direct result of, the WOT. We are more of a target now. But the WTC was attacked in 1993, followed by the embassies in Nairobi and Tanzania in 1998, the USS cole in 2000. Paris and German cities have been the center of plots. Indonesia has been attacked numerous times (primarily targeting Australians), and so have other muslim countries like Saudi Arabia and Morroco. 

Also many countries are at threat of different targets of terrorism. Russia had it's own WOT on Chechynan rebels, and now cafes, restaurants and the subway are at target.

To conculde, it is not true to suggest that we are at threat solely because of the wars, nor is it true to suggest that the wars have nothing to do with the terrorism. The WOT has escelated, but not started the process of an increased terrorism threat in this country.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tony's Legacy? (#9)

by NorthernMonkey on Sun Jul 01, 2007 at 10:58:08 PM GMT

The events in Afghanistan and Iraq are not the causes of terrorism in the UK, they are simply events which terrorists use as a cowardly excuse for their attrocities.

These people who desire to blow themselves up and kill innocent people are doing so because they fundamentally disagree with our way of life and instead believe only in a perverted and extreme form of Islam.

There was an interesting article in the Guardian yesterday written by a man who used to belong to a Jihadist group and he wrote that the idea that the terrorists are doing these things because of Iraq is misguided - he said the people who belong to these Jihadist terrorist groups aim to turn Britain (and indeed the entire Western world) into an ultra-strict Islamic state and are prepared to do anything to bring about the end of Western civilisation. I would say anyone who ignores a message such as this needs their brains tested.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tony's Legacy? (#15)

by SocialistAC on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 08:52:44 AM GMT

"The events in Afghanistan and Iraq are not the causes of terrorism in the UK, they are simply events which terrorists use as a cowardly excuse for their atrocities."  Absolutely correct. I wish that more people would see this too.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tony's Legacy? (#16)

by swatantra on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 09:18:22 AM GMT

Its not so much an excuse but a deliberate act on part of these murderous terrorists to justify their acts of terrorism. These terrorists have a warped way of thinking and believe retaliation is the only way. And it's cowardly because they aim at soft targets, like civilians.

Unfortunately, Islam, or so their clerics tell them, will justify their acts and reward them iin heaven.
Apparently it is the fundamentalist sects of the Wahadi's that tell them so.

And it is the repressive regime of the Saudis that support the Wahadi's.

So why is Britain selling arms to Saudi Arabia; and why did Tony intervene and stop the enquiry into the alledged bribery scandal of the Saudi prince; and why are the unions defending jobs in the Defence industry that apparently would collapse if the Saudi deal fell through; and why are we not adopting an ethical foreiggn policy; and why are we still maintaing friendly relations with both Saudi Arabia and Pakistan when clearly the sources of terrorism enmanate from these two basket-cases of so called countries.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tony's Legacy? (#17)

by Glass House on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 10:42:30 AM GMT

Wahabis are just one type of Islamist.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tony's Legacy? (#28)

by Loz on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 10:21:24 PM GMT

Ultimately we are not targetting innocent people - THEY ARE, and there allies are in Iraq.

I can accept that these people are pissed at iraq, but those who like to blame terrorism on iraq are really being quite degrading in their perception of muslims - i.e they think that the logical response of muslims is to go and strap a bomb to yourself and kill as many infedels as you can.

Ultimately, these people have a screw loose any way - jews didn't respond to the holocaust by targetting innocent people, and nor have they in countries were they have been persecuted.

Where are these muslims blowing up iranian troops? And killing iranian politicians, and a handful of other countries in the middle east that oppress their people? They're not to be seen.

There is NO excuse for terrorism, and no justification whatsoever.

Out troops are in Iraq today HELPING the iraqi people, so why are we the target of their anger?

They have a dangerous and twisted interpretation of islam and if you think they will stop the moment we pull out, you are extremely mistaken.

If you think they would stop should we renounce support for pakistan and saudi arabia you are even more mistaken.

Countries like iran and syria are also evil dictatorships, we don't support them, so why do they?

The answer lies in that ideology - which they share, and we should be under no illusions, the extremist doctrine, be it hamas or al qaeda places islam above all else and the march of their terrorist tactics will not stop until the islamic flag is flying above dowing street and the white house.

Pretty scary stuff - even more so considering the latter part of what I said was their own words.

People need to wake up, these doctors arrested today could be British, Iraqi, Iranian or jordanian. It doesn't matter -  they would target us anyway.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tony's Legacy? (#29)

by jkitleft on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 10:42:00 AM GMT

It's interesting that in one of Blair's speeches (either on September 11th, or post-September 11th) that he mentioned that the best way to fight terrorism, is to fight poverty. Gordon Brown seemed to express this in his campaign for the leadership. There is some truth in what Cherie controversially said in 2002. I'm not justifying Palestinean suicide bombers, but many live in the condition, that if they see their house bulldozed, they are drawn into extremism. What is known, however, is that there were terrorist attacks of this nature before September 11th. I don't think terrorist attacks have suddenly sprung up thanks to the WOT, but I do believe that there has been an escalation.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tony's Legacy? (#34)

by Loz on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 04:02:29 PM GMT

I think its important to remember that the worlds most wanted terrorist commands a fortune worth millions, possibly billions.

I can to an extent see that logic - paticuarly when you look at palestine.

But that can't be used as justification or an excuse.

Will eradicating poverty eradicate terrorism? I think it's highly unlikely because what they stand for is more important than wealth.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tony's Legacy? (#35)

by jkitleft on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 04:30:44 PM GMT

Some very good points. I do think that poverty could slow the process of terrorism spreading. but I'll give these points siome thought.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tony's Legacy? (#10)

by Curlew on Sun Jul 01, 2007 at 10:58:26 PM GMT

The Iraq war provides the call to arms on the part of these terrorists, yes.  I also think that when the honours list was compiled by the then No.10 they must have considered this reaction to it and the timing thereof.

 


[ Parent ]

Re: Tony's Legacy? (#13)

by Glass House on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 01:17:35 AM GMT

You think number 10 did it deliberately?


[ Parent ]

Re: Tony's Legacy? (#14)

by laurencemarshall on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 04:20:42 AM GMT

I used to do the press for the Honours committee and in the last two years, all the responsibility for honours is now in the hands of the Cabinet Office not number 10. It's an independent committee, and considering recent events due to our former leader, the honours committee is very much free from political control.

 

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good arguement. 


[ Parent ]

Re: Tony's Legacy? (#18)

by Curlew on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 12:03:03 PM GMT

Then that committee must also be free of political intelligence too.  Most people I spoke to after hearing of the K assumed that this would cause trouble.  He's abandoned the UK for the US, I don't understand the need for this.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tony's Legacy? (#23)

by Curlew on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 05:33:31 PM GMT

Stop press on the Beeb, Rushdie's wife has just filed for divorce.  Now I wonder why that is?


[ Parent ]

Re: Tony's Legacy? (#11)

by grimupnorth on Sun Jul 01, 2007 at 11:10:07 PM GMT

Hardly a  minority  view.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tony's Legacy? (#12)

by Glass House on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 01:17:02 AM GMT

I think we all know that the majority holding a particular view doesn't make it true.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tony's Legacy? (#19)

by LeftrightLeftright on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 12:43:08 PM GMT

Terror Attacks from end of GW1 to GW2
1993 WTC  
1998 US Embassies (Nairobi & Dar es Salaam)
2000 USS Cole (tho' not a civilian target)
2001 9/11 
2002 Bali nightclubs

Terror Attacks since GW2
2003 - Istanbul (Synagogues)
2003 - Istanbul (HSBC & British Consulate)
2004  -Madrid trains
2005 7/7 - London tube & buses
2005 - Bali (town square & restaurants)
2007 Haymarket & Glasgow

Two things to say. This is a select list and statistics are notoriously unreliable. I do think that 6 major attacks (I have left out suspected attacks and the hundreds upon hundfred in Iraq itself)  in 4 years is something of an escalation from 5 attacks in 12 years though.  And it is also important to remember that in Al Qaeda's world, the occupation began in 1991, not with the overthrow of Saddam in 2003.

statistcis can be manipulated just as easily as the majority view, but I do think it is bizarre to suggest that terorrism is disconnected from the west's actions  in the region - including of course, using Saddam as a proxy against - wait for it - Islamic fundamentalists in Iran - back in the early 80s.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tony's Legacy? (#20)

by swatantra on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 02:33:55 PM GMT

Thank goodness for statisticians. Leftrightleft is absolutely correct, there has been an escalation.
And anyone who doesn't see that needs their heads examined.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tony's Legacy? (#21)

by laurencemarshall on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 04:15:15 PM GMT

This data is highly selective. If you actually look at the number of terrorist incidents in western europe it has actually declined since 1999. For a full breakdown, and possibly the means to refute my statement, see the terrorist knowledge base www.tkb.org.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tony's Legacy? (#22)

by Curlew on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 05:16:07 PM GMT

If you look at the "who are we" section of that website Laurence, you'll see their close links with the US Department of Homeland Security, not exactly unbiased one would think. 

However thanks for the link - it will be interesting to see what they are up to!


[ Parent ]

Re: Tony's Legacy? (#24)

by CitizenAndreas on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 05:41:24 PM GMT

It's a bit of a stretch to suggest that a body with links to the Department of Homeland Security would skew and misreport their data merely for the purpose of winning this particular argument.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tony's Legacy? (#25)

by laurencemarshall on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 05:52:11 PM GMT

I did my masters dissertation on terrorism, and this site is the bible of all terrorist attacks for all researchers. Granted it has links to homeland security, but is run by RAND, who are a pretty neatral think tank.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tony's Legacy? (#26)

by jkitleft on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 06:34:44 PM GMT

i don't think that's biased. A right-winger could make the same 'biased' charge if a Democrat was in charge of the department of security.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tony's Legacy? (#27)

by LeftrightLeftright on Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 08:16:18 PM GMT

Agreed it is selective data - in fact, I did say so -  but I think the general point I was making still stands - that what the West does in the Middle East is a cause and rallying cry for terrorists.

I wanted to ask - not having had time to look at the tkb site in detail, would the falling off in number of terrorist attacks in Western Europe not be enormously affected by political developments in NI and the Basque region? These have long been two of the most intenese conflicts, certinaly in terms of terror/armed resistance for decades, but would have to be seen separately from Al Qaeda inspired attacks.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tony's Legacy? (#30)

by Glass House on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 12:45:42 PM GMT

Interesting point over at Harry's place

If it's all to do with foreign policy, why have suicide bombers just killed Spanish people (a country that has withdrawn it's troops from Iraq) in Yeman (a place that has no troops in Iraq)


Re: Tony's Legacy? (#31)

by swatantra on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 01:47:15 PM GMT

Its an international conspiracy against established powers, and they'll hit only soft targets. So even though Spain has withdrawn its troops, they still see it as apart of the western alliance. And Yemen remains a hotbed for Arab dissidents


[ Parent ]

Re: Tony's Legacy? (#32)

by Glass House on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 02:03:26 PM GMT

That's why I think attacks are much more to do with an Islamist ideology that despises the west than specific foreign policy grievances.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tony's Legacy? (#33)

by swatantra on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 02:38:48 PM GMT

But then, they'll use any old excuse to create mayhem; there's a lot of mileage in Iraq and Afghanistan, as long as our troops remain there; our prescence merely feeds their cause, recruiting more crazed individuals into their fold. 


[ Parent ]

Tony's Legacy? | 35 comments (35 topical)