Greetings from the right...

visitingtory Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 03:00:13 PM GMT Print-friendly version Facebook

I thought you might like a little opinion from the other side of the political spectrum...



...my reasoning being that Labour supporters and members drop by sometimes on ConservativeHome and add their opinions to what we are discussing. I strongly believe that this helps debate develop and thought that it would be a good idea to extend this principle to LabourHome.

If you want to know who I am then the most I'll say is that I am a Conservative Party member in the North-West with an active involvement in Conservative Future. I voted for David Davis in the leadership election but am broadly supportive of most of what David Cameron's done since.

But not on grammar schools. I believe strongly that grammar schools accelerate social mobility and disagree with Cameron on this issue.

So I hope you don't mind me dropping by from time to time to give you a different perspective on some issues.

Best regards

visitingtory 



tags: , , (all tags)

Display: Sort:
Greetings from the right... | 72 comments (72 topical)

Re: Greetings from the right... (#1)

by Glass House on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 03:10:39 PM GMT

It might help us get some kind of perspective on your views if you outline what kind of Tory you are

On social issues, how conservative are you? On gay marriage? On the recent equalities act?

Are you an outright libertarian? What do you envisage as the legitimate role of the state?

Do you see market outcomes as inherently moral or simply as the most efficient starting point for (to whatever extent) government 'correction'. If the latter, to what extent?

Glass House


Re: Greetings from the right... (#2)

by visitingtory on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 03:15:45 PM GMT

I am on the libertarian wing of the Conservatives, but not the crazed taxation-is-theft wing. The political compass test puts me to the left of the Conservative Party on social issues (I have no problem whatsoever with gay marriage and support most equality legislation whilst opposing affirmative action.) I see the role of the state as the guiding hand behind the nation which helps and assists people to acheive their aims. I approve of limited benefits to provide a safety net but what the state must do is encourage people away from benefits and towards employment. Benefits are for those unable to work not those unwilling to work. I believe that market outcomes are generally good for society but that a truly free market requires an element of regulation.


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#3)

by Glass House on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 03:33:58 PM GMT

I always think that the difference between left wing Tories and right wing Labourites is their views on vested interests and equality.

I think Tories see the state as being the primary vested interest that get in the way of people being all they can be. David Cameron's speeches are, despite his being seen as a paternalist Tory, littered with anti-state rhetoric. As a Labour supporter, while is see that state institutions can stand in people's way, I think that there are a multitude of other interests which prevent people from achieving what they could with their lives. What are your views on this?

On equality, I believe that a more equal society is a more prosperous society (expect at the far fringes). Giving everyone excellent education and healthcare are expensive endeavours which can only be paid for through progressive taxation - but also creates a health and educated workforce which more than offsets the tax disincentives of doin business in the UK. What are your views on this.


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#6)

by visitingtory on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 03:49:48 PM GMT

I would agree that there an awful lot of reasons and an awful lot of contributing factors which impede social mobility and prevent lives progressing and people would intend. State interference is one factor but at its best the state can be the factor which catalyses lives and helps them to progess. I am a supporter of the NHS and state schools but I also believe strongly in the right of anyone to use private healthcare and education if they so desire. I believe that funding for state institutions should come partly from taxation and partly from private sector involvement.


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#7)

by Glass House on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 03:56:04 PM GMT

And on inequality? I'd be interested in what you meant by "a minimum safety net", your view on the minimum wage and what you think of tax credits.


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#11)

by visitingtory on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 04:10:30 PM GMT

I would describe a minimum safety net as something akin to the current benefits system with a little more regulation to stop it being exploited by people who don't want to contribute to society. I would reform unemployment benefit so it really rewarded those who were actually looking for work and penalised those who didn't. (I know it's called Jobseekers' Allowance but it's far too easy to fake it under the present system.) As for the minimum wage I have no problem whatsoever as long as it stays at its current level and only increases at the rate of inflation. I don't think businesses have any problem either. At its current rate it is again a safety net to prevent exploitation of lower-paid workers. Tax credits seem a perfectly good way of promoting raising children and helping to fund their upbringing although I would also consider a Family Allowance which could serve a similar pur


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#13)

by Glass House on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 04:16:07 PM GMT

Family allowance - only for married couples?


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#16)

by visitingtory on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 04:18:48 PM GMT

No, for anyone bringing up children. (The current tax credit has the word 'Families' in it if I'm right anyway!)


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#17)

by Glass House on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 04:21:55 PM GMT

And on the minimum wage, you said that you only want it to increase at the rate of inflation. So far, it has increases much faster than that - did you support that and, if so, why the change of heart now?


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#19)

by visitingtory on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 04:29:23 PM GMT

I believe that it has now reached its correct level where it prevents exploitation withouth impinging on the free market. So yes I did support it being raised to its present level quickly but it is now serving its purpose, so should in my opinion only rise in line with inflation.

(I would however extend it to cover 16 year olds and above at the full minimum wage.)


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#21)

by Glass House on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 04:37:07 PM GMT

Well, you say you're not socially conservative, seem happy with equalities legislation and also seem happy with most of New Labour's interference with the market through the minimum wage and (unusually for a Tory) Tax Credits.

I'm moved to ask - in what way is Labour too leftwing for you?


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#23)

by visitingtory on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 04:49:58 PM GMT

I have an awful lot of time for Tony Blair and can find a lot of common ground with with his policies.

However I considered the ending of the Assisted Places scheme to be a vindictive policy which impeded social mobility and the current attack by sections of the Labour Party on the charitable status of independent schools to be a continuation of that trend.

I oppose the Labour cuts to the NHS which are affecting my local hospital; many wards are closing and A&E could follow. The Conservatives are opposing the closures at a local and national level.

I agree with Blair on involving the private sector wherever possible in health and education provision but doubt the commitment by the rest of the Labour Party and a good proportion of its grassroots to follow through with that policy.

The main reason though for me is that I detect much more of a desire to follow through on Tony Blair's positive reforms in the Conservatives. There are many on the Left who see it simply as an anomaly that will be corrected under a future Labour leader.

My personal belief is that there is much that the left of the Conservatives and the right of Labour have in common and I think we have very similar beliefs on the type of Britain we'd like to see (an aspirational society with high levels of social mobility and increasing affluence) but perhaps different views on how we get there.


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#59)

by Curlew on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 05:15:24 PM GMT

I don't think you are a Tory at all! Come on visiting Tony - 'fess up. You've got nothing better to do than post on here now your world tour is over :-)


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#4)

by jonesythered on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 03:40:46 PM GMT

Oh god, Blairites are bad enough. Just a suggestion, but could you maybe consider returning to wherever you came from? This is a Labour forum with party members and supporters, not a general current affairs chatroom. I'd personally prefer to eat my own leg than have a debate with a Tory.


Re: Greetings from the right... (#5)

by Glass House on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 03:44:02 PM GMT

You don't think that could be a little closed minded?

Isn't the way to find the best policies to debate with everyone, rather than you your own narrow clique?


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#9)

by jonesythered on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 04:02:49 PM GMT

I don't think asking for a Labour forum to be restricted to Labour members and supporters counts as my own "narrow clique" - unless you consider yourself to be in the same "narrow clique" as me, which I very much doubt!

As I proudly chanted at the age of four at a poll tax demonstration in Glasgow back in 1989: "Kick the Tories out!"


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#12)

by visitingtory on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 04:15:11 PM GMT

rd
s


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#14)

by visitingtory on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 04:17:30 PM GMT

Sorry, posted that far too soon...
But if your political views were moulded at the age of four, do you really think that you are ideologically developed?
Do you lack confidence in your ideology to such an extent that you won't debate it? Others here have already proved the opposite and I find it sad that you have reacted so negatively.


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#15)

by Glass House on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 04:17:47 PM GMT

Actually, I was implying that I was in the same clique as you - the Labour party.

The last thing that the party needs is to be reduced to talking to itself and no one else.


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#29)

by jkitleft on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 06:51:58 PM GMT

Labour has at the moment, a massive problem with infighting. So we should let even conservative supporters comment on this forum, because otherwise this would be a Stalinist forum, because it would show that Labour is the party for encouraging debate, and trying to get people intersted in politics.


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#8)

by otware on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 03:58:07 PM GMT

Hello =)

I am fairly leftwing around here, but I must say I don't really get that worked up about grammar schools. I don't really get the problem, to be honest. Maybe that's because my Dad comes from a working calss background but went to a grammar school and as such managed to get into Imperial College. So I'm probably quite closed minded on grammar schools - but they are without a doubt not the social evil that some people like to claim they are.

However, I can see how back in the day when there were secondary moderns those who ended up in the secondary modern were disadvantaged. But these days we have local comprehensives, and the odd grammar school here and there doesn't really do that much damage in my opinion.


Re: Greetings from the right... (#10)

by Glass House on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 04:03:08 PM GMT

My prediction for this thread:

Anyone who is seen as agreeing too much with the Tory, even on broad issues, will get a load of stick on subsequent threads.

:)


Re: Greetings from the right... (#18)

by Lorin on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 04:29:12 PM GMT

Hello, I'm on the left wing of the labour party. I wanted to know what you thought about renationalising the railways, the post office and the water, I know you lot privatised the railways, but Thatcher has said it was a "privatisation too far". What do you think?


Re: Greetings from the right... (#20)

by visitingtory on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 04:36:46 PM GMT

Hello. I oppose renationalising the Post Office and water supply, the main reason being that the privatisation has been perfectly successful.

The rail system needs reform. I personally would wait for the current contracts with private companies to expire, with a view to then passing it to one private company who would run the entire national service for an extended period of time.


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#22)

by Mozzer1989 on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 04:39:15 PM GMT

Hullo =) Out of curiosity what areas do you think the tories could improve on, policy wise?


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#25)

by visitingtory on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 04:55:29 PM GMT

Hello - on education we need to find some coherence, I think we should go through with what Willetts is saying about academies but allow those new academies to select on ability.

What I hope the Conservative Party will embrace is localism. What suits Oxfordshire doesn't necessarily suit Merseyside. We have to recognise that one size doesn't fit all and if the local residents in one area want small community based schools and the others want a selective system, let's do what suits those areas on an individual basis.

On health I think we have it right. And I think sharing the proceeds of growth between tax cuts and public services investment is a great policy sitting nicely on the centre ground. Perhaps we need to answer what we'll do if there isn't growth though...would we share the cost of decline?


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#30)

by jkitleft on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 06:58:34 PM GMT

we disagree on Post Office and Water privatisation being a succesful idea. The other privatisations have worked out well, but there was the Thames Water fiasco last year. And I have spoken to a postman, who says that our postal service used to be fantastic, but is now on par with Azerbaijan's (and of course I support Rail re-nationalisation). But anyway, what are your views on 'civil liberty issues' i.e. ID cards, increased 'anti-terror' powers etc.


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#31)

by visitingtory on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 07:05:03 PM GMT

I am strongly opposed to ID cards (as is the Conservative Party) and believe they will ultimately be useless anyway. Such documents will be forged easily and will only be another stealth tax for those who follow the laws - law-breakers will find a way round. Anti-terror powers are necessary to a degree but I feel that this Government has abused such powers to further its own means. Civil liberties are important and this Government for me does not recognise that.


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#32)

by jkitleft on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 07:15:20 PM GMT

I agree with you on these points. I had a discussion with a 'New Labourite' as to the fact of why Left-wing MP's will often vote with the Tories. But it is possible to find a left-wing, and a right-wing idea against an argument.


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#24)

by Loz on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 04:51:38 PM GMT

I think we should welcome any visitors. He seems like a very decent person, so why not hear him out and debate the issues in a friendly way?


Re: Greetings from the right... (#26)

by visitingtory on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 05:01:30 PM GMT

Many thanks! It's good to be able to have these debates and I think it helps everyone develop their beliefs.

Working in the Conservative Party at a local level I find there are two types of Labour supporters/councillors. There are those who talk dismissively about 'Tories' and attack everything we say just because we say it but there are others who like to find common ground (particularly against the BNP where they stand) and work with us on consensual issues. (Incidentally our members behave in much the same way, some just attack what Labour say because they say it and are rude whereas others engage with Labour...the second group generally get further.)

At the local election this year there were two Con-Lab marginals. In one seat the Labour candidate sent out leaflets personally attacking the Conservative, she lost by 50 votes or so and a mini-brawl ensued, in the other the candidates fought fairly on the issues, Labour won by an equally small majority and their candidate even came over to check we were happy with the result.


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#27)

by Lorin on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 06:02:36 PM GMT

I think labour's campaigning this time was quite bad, attack you and the SNP. We should focus on the very good things we have done since we came to power, and how the country is in a much better state compared to black wednsday and your years. What do you think about fox hunting?


Re: Greetings from the right... (#28)

by visitingtory on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 06:25:01 PM GMT

Foxhunting is one of those things that I have absolutely no desire to do but I defend the right of anyone else to do it if they want to. I agree with David Cameron's plan to retract the Act which frankly serves no purpose anyway as no fewer foxes are killed.


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#33)

by Glass House on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 07:50:58 PM GMT

Actually, I don't think Cameron has said he will retract the Act - I think he just said he'd offer a free vote on the issue.

I could be mistaken though.


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#34)

by visitingtory on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 08:23:03 PM GMT

I think it's pretty much settled internally:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&xml=/news/2006/02/19/nhunt19.xml


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#35)

by Glass House on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 08:29:37 PM GMT

Hmmm, I wouldn't be so quick to assume that unnamed "senior Tories" talking to the Telegraph is a firm commitment - especially, as the article notes, when Cameron has been so quiet on the issue.


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#36)

by visitingtory on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 08:34:00 PM GMT

This one's Cameron's wording on the issue:
'I was brought up in the country. I think we should be tolerant in this country of people that like to live their lives in different ways. "Country sports have taken place for years and they don't need banning under criminal law.'
From: http://www.kentnews.co.uk/kent-news/Cameron-demands-general-election-as-he-vows-to-bring-back-fox-hu nting-newsinkent3670.aspx


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#37)

by Glass House on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 08:47:41 PM GMT

Interesting.

To be honest, I'm pretty neutral on the issue. I come from a three-generation farming family and so can see both sides.

To me, the whole thing just seemed like a huge waste of Parliamentary time. I think I'm right in saying that there were more Parliamentary hours spend discussing Fox Hunting than there were discussing the Iraq War which, whatever your views on either subject, can't really be a good thing.


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#38)

by visitingtory on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 09:08:08 PM GMT

I'd agree with that sentiment. As far as issues go it's not something that bothers me at all although it inspires strong feelings on both sides of the debate from many.


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#43)

by fluffymike on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 09:32:59 AM GMT

There'd have been a lot less time wasted if Blair hadn't been trying to cobble together the Third Way option again - it was clear the barabric practice had overwhelming opposition in the House and the Country, and should have gone through in 1997 in a full and comprehensive ban.
And yes, before you ask, I am from a rural area with a family history that supported the chasing of Charley.
And I think all animal abuse is disgusting and should be stopped.


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#44)

by Glass House on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 09:55:09 AM GMT

Yeah, the various 'accommodations' did waste a lot of time.


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#39)

by Curlew on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 10:33:34 PM GMT

VisitingTory - Are you the first of a recent batch to cross the house?

Is Brown more to your liking than Cameron?


Re: Greetings from the right... (#40)

by visitingtory on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 07:25:05 AM GMT

I'm afraid not. I couldn't forgive Brown over plundering pensions or the gold sales, which cost the nation billions of pounds in lost revenue.

I find that Cameron is more sincere in person than he comes across in interviews and in print. And I'd say that with a couple of exceptions we have an excellent Conservative front bench. Davis in particular is doing some great work as Shadow Home Secretary with a pretty liberal approach on civil liberties coupled with a toughness on crime and acceptance of a simple need to build more prisons.

More importantly I explained previously on this thread where I saw policy differences between myself as a Tory and the Labour Party; I've seen no swing by Brown towards these policies. (If he were to adopt them all, including new grammar schools, he'd end up to the right of Cameron, which would certainly make for an interesting political climate!)


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#41)

by Glass House on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 09:21:45 AM GMT

You do realise the pensions 'raid' isn't anywhere near as cut and dry as the press and the Tories would have you believe?

The Major government had already started to get rid of the tax credit on share dividends in the 90s - Brown just finished the job.

It speaks volumes that the Tories have refused to reverse the decision should they get in to power.


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#42)

by Glass House on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 09:22:36 AM GMT

You do realise the pensions 'raid' isn't anywhere near as cut and dry as the press and the Tories would have you believe?

The Major government had already started to get rid of the tax credit on share dividends in the 90s - Brown just finished the job.

It speaks volumes that the Tories have refused to reverse the decision should they get in to power.


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#45)

by visitingtory on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 11:00:12 AM GMT

I don't think we could afford to reverse the move if we got into power. It's very easy to try and blame the last Tory Government but at the end of the day it happened under Brown and he must take at least some of the responsibility. What about the gold sales? What about increasing national debt?


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#46)

by Glass House on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 11:11:49 AM GMT

I'm not trying to blame the Tories for it, I'm simply saying that it wasn't a raid. What happened was that Brown got rid of the tax credit on shares (which, obviously cuts the value of shares) while at the same time, cutting corporation tax (which boosts post-tax profits and therefore also boosts the value of shares). It just so happened that he did it just before the bottom fell out of the market, which hit a lot of pension funds which held shares. The 'raid' is not responsible for the pension fund collapse.

On the selling of the gold - yep, fair enough, that was a mistake. Although I do remember reading an article in the Economist (hardly the most lefty publication) around that time, claiming that the value of gold was about to drop and that now would be a good time for states to sell their reserves. Worth thinking about.

On the national debt - the national debt has increased over the last few years. But remember that, upon coming to power, the government paid a lot of debt off. As it stands currently, even taking into account PFI 'debt' (of which a low is only debt to the extent that, by hiring people, you're committing yourself to the 'debt' of having to pay them money over the next few years) the national debt as a % of GDP is about the same as when we came to power.


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#47)

by Glass House on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 11:12:51 AM GMT

should have read 'lot', not 'low'


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#48)

by visitingtory on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 11:44:58 AM GMT

Are you suggesting then that Brown's decision to get rid of the tax credit was flawed? If so, doesn't that bring into question his overall competence and suitability for the top job? (I notice that you wanted Miliband as leader...do these issues play a part in saying why?)

I know (before someone mentions Lamont) that no Chancellor gets it completely right but I think the 'Iron Chancellor' business is an absolute myth. Inflation is low by his own statistics. Growth is high by his own statistics. Ask the ordinary person on the street if their gas bills, food bills etc. are going up faster than their wages - they'll answer yes. I think people realise now that the iron is distinctly rusty.

Just a question that interests me...you are evidently on the right of the Labour Party. Would you describe yourself as centre-left, centrist or centre-right? And if McDonnell had been by some freak chance elected leader, would you still have stayed in the Labour Party and voted Labour?


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#49)

by Glass House on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 12:31:55 PM GMT

No, I'm not suggesting that Brown's decision to get rid of the tax credit was flawed, I don't know where I gave you that impression.

My support for a Miliband candidacy was to do with Miliband's views on Localism (not that I think that Brown is anywhere near as centralising as some would have us believe) and that skipping a generation might have better allowed the party to represent a "new start" to the electorate (a la Major). However, I'm not (and never have been) anti-Brown and have been pleasantly surprised with his performance over the last few weeks.

On your final point, despite being on the right of the party, I would still describe myself as centre-left. In the freak event of a McDonnell victory I would have stayed in the Labour party and fought my corner. I also have no doubt that we'd have lost the next election and normal service would have resumed after that under another right-of-the-party leader (probably Miliband).


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#50)

by visitingtory on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 12:39:09 PM GMT

I got the impression when you stated that you weren't trying to 'blame' the Major Government; your use of the word led me to think you believed that it was a negative and that blame should be approportioned somewhere.

Does Direct Democracy interest you? I consider it one of the most exciting political concepts of this century and hope it will develop in the future.

Would you have felt able to go out and vote Labour (I know you said you would stay in the Party) in a General Election with McDonnell as PM advocating mass renationalisation, higher taxes and letting the unions do anything they like? Or would you have voted Conservative or LibDem to get McDonnell out and replace him with a leader more to your taste?


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#51)

by Glass House on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 12:53:06 PM GMT

I only used the word 'blame' because I was replying to your comment that "It's very easy to try and blame the last Tory Government".

What kind of direct democracy are you talking about? I'm not a huge fan of national referendums for most things - I layed out my views on them in another thread (here: http://www.labourhome.org/comments/2007/1/4/74439/03955/6#6)

However, I can see the merits of "call-in" petitions and things like that.

On the McDonnell as PM thing. Yep, it would have been pretty awful for me, but I'd have voted Labour (I'm fortunate in having a moderate Labour MP to vote for). There's plenty of people on this board who are ideologically as far enough from Blair as I am from McDonnell - if they can stick it out, I should too. I wouldn't vote for another party to get him out - the public would do that themselves.


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#52)

by visitingtory on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 01:24:26 PM GMT

I think that the website below best describes my sort of direct democracy: http://www.direct-democracy.co.uk/

I suppose that those who are ideologically detached from Blair (on the left) don't really have anywhere to go. The extreme left is incredibly weak however much noise a few people make which is reflected in its horrific electoral performance.

I notice that you said you had a moderate Labour MP so would feel able to vote for him/her under a McDonnell leadership; if you were to live in McDonnell's constituency or that of one of his supporters, would you feel the same way?


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#53)

by Glass House on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 01:38:43 PM GMT

I would still vote Labour even if I was in McDonnell's constituency (although, living in his constituency and being a member of his CLP would put me in a position to try to get someone a bit more to my liking as the Labour candidate).

My point was that, even if the party Leader was a leftwinger, my sorrow would be mitigated by the fact that I was casting my vote for a moderate MP - thus contributing to keeping moderate Labour MPs in Parliament to fight another day.


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#54)

by Glass House on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 01:42:38 PM GMT

Also, the direct democracy site seems to be to do with localism rather than direct democracy (which I assumed to be to do with referendums, citizen juries etc.)


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#55)

by visitingtory on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 01:51:31 PM GMT

Yes...I don't think direct democracy is advocating mass referendums, more the central concept as they state : 'Decisions should be taken as closely as possible to the people they affect.' Their ten basic principles pretty much explain my own political views for example education and healthcare funded by the state but not administered by it.


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#57)

by Glass House on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 02:25:29 PM GMT

(see post #56 below)


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#60)

by Lorin on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 05:27:12 PM GMT

Ah yes Lamont, how could I forget, he was "Dave's" boss, when "Dave" was his advisor.... on black wednsday. Cameraon has changed his opinions on issues too much. He wrote the 2005 tory manifesto (something he wants us to forget). He said wind turbines were "giant bird blenders" and now is all green. He was against devolution, and now is for it. He supported the invasion of Iraq, then was against it, then supported it again. He was against the minimum wage, and now supports it. Before being elected, he was against the removal of section 28, now he is for it. Can we trust this man? I disagree with Blair on many things, but Blair at least remaines with his poilcies, unlike "Dave", who has made every attempt to copy Blair, even in the way he speaks.


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#56)

by Glass House on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 02:25:05 PM GMT

I. Decisions should be taken as closely as possible to the people they affect.

Fine by me, so long as we remember the "closely as possible" - there are sometimes legitimate strategic needs for higher-up decision making.

I. Decision-makers should be directly elected. I assume this is about getting rid on quangos? And possibly elected local police chiefs? (which I'm quite keen on)

"III. Citizens should be as free as possible from state coercion."

Everyone has a different view on what state coercion is. If you're talking about Labour's none-too-good civil liberties record, I'm with you. If we're taking the Tory "tax is an almost unacceptable state coercion", then no.

IV. Local authorities should be self-financing."

They should be more self-financing than present, but if your talking about anywhere near fully self financing, then we'll have to differ. Poor areas raise the least in Council tax and yet have the greatest need for services that need to be paid for.

V. Policing should be brought under local democratic control."

See answer 1

"VI. The state should fund, rather than administer, education." AND "VII. The state should fund, rather than administer, healthcare."

I've got no problem with private involvement within a state owned NHS - or private treatment centres. We might even need more of this. I also would like to see more competition for patients' custom in the NHS. But if you're talking about hiving off the whole NHS to the independent/voluntary/private sectors, I'm not on board with that.

"VIII. Taxes should be simple, fair, transparent, efficient, competitive and low."

The current system could be simpler and fairer, but I have no desire for massive tax cuts if they damage services. As I said before, properly funded Education and Health services benefits the economy more than a tax cut.

"IX. The supremacy of Parliament should be guaranteed over ministers, judges, officials and foreign treaty obligations."

It already is. Even EU regulations are constitutionally only enforcable so long as Parliament aquiesces.

"X. Candidates for public office should be selected from the widest possible base.

Is this about primaries for party candidates? Involving who?


Re: Greetings from the right... (#58)

by visitingtory on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 05:15:23 PM GMT

As far as I can see you have interpreted their points much as was intended. Elected police chiefs is indeed a key feature as points II and V show, and cutting down on quangos and unnecessary bureaucracy is at the core of the localist approach.

I see point III as minimising state interference in everyday life: axing ID cards is a key Conservative policy which I think is represented here, and a greater role for judiciary in certain civil liberties decisions (anti-terror etc.) is also a factor. (I don't see many Conservatives arguing that taxation is 'an almost unacceptable state coercion', least of all our leader, who won't be promising sweeping tax cuts at the next election.)

With a reformed tax structure point IV becomes more achievable. Obviously no local authority can be entirely self-funding but I think they could certainly be more so, which would allow them greater autonomy as they could be free to spend their own budget without central interference.

VI and VII are issues close to my heart; teachers, not the Government, know how the education system should be best run and health workers, not the Government, know how the NHS should be best run. Let's give them the independence they need and free them from relentless target-setting. But let's fund and back them to the hilt as they do this.

As for VIII, I think it's a long-term goal to gradually reduce taxation as a proportion of GDP. I don't see a need or an appetite for sweeping tax cuts but the (many) stealth taxes should go.

I think IX is very hard to disagree with. X is quite vague but I think it's primary point is that where possible the Conservative Party should select its candidates from a broad base encompassing all communities. It is also a statement opposing discrimination.


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#61)

by Glass House on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 06:38:55 PM GMT

So, it's settled then...you'll come over and join the Labour Party ;)


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#62)

by visitingtory on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 06:49:39 PM GMT

Welcome to the Conservative Party :) - you will I'm sure be made very welcome. (As the Direct Democracy site said 'Welcome to the online home of Direct Democracy, a movement of MPs, MEPs, activists and candidates committed to making localism the core of the Conservative Party's platform.')

In all seriousness it's discussions like this (when we agree on far too much!) that make me wonder why there aren't more Con-Lab coalitions in local government. I think it's a more natural coalition than Con-Lib and perhaps Lib-Lab but there's much more of a psychological barrier to Con-Lab. Perhaps one day it will be overcome especially if the localist agenda wins support on both sides.


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#64)

by Glass House on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 07:26:22 PM GMT

I think you'll find that Tories in local government are a lot less liberal and a lot more conservative


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#65)

by visitingtory on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 07:41:25 PM GMT

I'd say that depends on which area of the country you're in.


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#67)

by Glass House on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 07:46:26 PM GMT

true


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#68)

by Lorin on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 07:53:32 PM GMT

In London they oppose the cheap housing scheme, they oppose the congestion charge and in Hammersmith and Fulham, they cut some 3 million pounds from public services and gave themselves an 18% pay rise....


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#69)

by Glass House on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 08:13:20 PM GMT

Yep, the Tories are cutters in local government


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#70)

by visitingtory on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 08:19:35 PM GMT

I am sure that there are individual examples of successful and unsuccessful Conservative Councils just as there are of Labour Councils...Labour can also be overly fond of cuts at times.

However Conservatives in local government are very popular as the local election results show. Generally our policies seem to be welcomed. Seats that are solid Labour in the General Election can often swing to us in the locals.


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#71)

by Glass House on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 08:54:58 PM GMT

I think that's more to do with us being in power for 10 years. The Conservative election gains are due to people getting tired of the same government and using the locals to send a message (like it was with the Tories 1987-1997).

As soon as you guys get in, it'll swing back the other way.


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#72)

by visitingtory on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 08:56:14 PM GMT

Probably true. I get the feeling a lot of people like their local government to be from the other main party, i.e. a Con government / Lab council or Lab government / Con council.


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#63)

by jkitleft on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 06:51:01 PM GMT

I have issue with police chiefs and judicial chiefs being elected. The example in America is you often get DA's 'solving' the cases around election time, or criminals getting executed around election time. In some corrupt cases, it doesn't matter who get's arrested, just find anyone to boost their poll ratings.


[ Parent ]

Re: Greetings from the right... (#66)

by visitingtory on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 07:43:04 PM GMT

I doubt the British public would behave in the same way here...especially as it's police chiefs who would be elected and who don't (directly) solve cases - instead it is their policies which could empower their officers to solve more cases.


[ Parent ]

Greetings from the right... | 72 comments (72 topical)