Does being green mean being socialist?

I'm a (social) liberal democrat (don't let that put you off too much) and I don't usually post on this site (although I have my own blogging site at http://aradicalwrites.blogspot.com). However, some issues go beyond party lines and the environment should be one of them. The first obstacle of getting people to accept that there is a problem has been overcome, but finding a way to deal with it is going to be far more difficult.

I'm worried about global warming, the idea that what thousands of scientists have been saying is all a 'grand conspiracy' sounds itself like a grand conspiracy and although I understand that there has been some bullshit coming from the green corner (see David Cameron for numerous perfect examples) that doesn't really compare to the huge mountain of it from the other side (I recently saw an advert by Exxon Mobile claiming that 'Carbon Dioxide is life!'). But there are problems I see in confronting global warming, in taking on the challenge. People agree global warming exists now (in general) but are we going to be able to do anything about it? I'm afraid I'm still rather sceptical.


Firstly I don't see the public will to deal with global Warming. By that I don't just mean people supporting green issues, but rather people being unwilling to sacrifice convenience for the planet. If we are to deal with global warming it is not going to be easy, we can't simply magic away 80% of our greenhouse gas emissions, we can't simply speak about global warming as if it’s the most important issue facing the world and yet treat it as if it's a secondary issue that won’t actually affect our everyday lives (much like the Bush administration's stance on the war on terror). It's going to require radical structural changes in the way our economy and society function. People won’t do this on their own; government must force the change whether structurally or by actively moderating our behaviour. There is no middle ground on environmentalism, we can either go all the way and attempt to prevent the ensuing disasters that climate change will surely bring by checking climate change itself or push the national effort into preparing for such calamities. Any middle road shall be both ineffective and wasteful. Looking at our politics therefore (and politics around the developed world for that matter) there is cause for concern. Our political landscape in both the Tory, Labour and dare I say it to an extent the liberal benches is dominated by compromisers, by people who would rather give in than give out. Your party and more recently the Tory party are both political groupings that have given up on their old ideologies and replaced them with a more populist (albeit vague) message. This is simply not the sort of politics that we can have if we are going to deal with a problem that is in Al Gore's words 'the greatest threat to civilisation since the 2nd World War'. A national effort is required and just like in the 2nd world war it is going to require government intervention to a huge extent. This has led to some of our more libertarian and conservative colleagues (who declare freedom for businessmen and complacency for everyone else) decrying environmentalists as 'undercover fascists' and scolding the entire principle of climate change as a 'far left wing conspiracy'. Absurd of course, partly because the green party doesn't exactly exert nationalistic or fascist principles but mainly because it lets the unattractive resultant solutions for a problem obscure the fact that there is a problem at all. In fact a similar thing happened with the Irish Potato Famine of 1845-49 when protectionist Tories said that the famine simply didn't exist in an attempt to save the protectionist Corn Laws. Strange how history repeats itself no?


Therefore, in the current malaise of centrist, compromising and populist politics, I do not believe our politicians will be able to make the tough decisions required to deal with global warming. We may make strong moves towards it certainly, but I don't see the economy being greened until we have politics that advocates not just strong leadership but strong action as well.


Secondly, the way we deal with global warming is a challenge in itself. The current preferred method is to set ambitious targets on cutting emissions and then to allow individual states to find they're preferred method of achieving their set goals. As I have said we need to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions by about 80% to achieve a 60% reduction worldwide mainly because we can’t honestly expect India or China to reduce their emissions as their countries grow and their populaces become affluent enough to afford electricity. This all sounds well and good but doesn't this hark back to the techniques of socialist planning which my party so strongly rejects? If we are against targets so much when they are used in the NHS and education why should we expect them to work and not cause government failure when applied to emissions? A certain economist has recently written an article on such a matter.


This brings me to my third point. In order to tackle climate change we will have to, whether we like it or not, have huge amounts of government intervention. We may well become a socialist state. Carbon rationing, government monitoring of our firms' environmental impact or even quite possibly government control. There are certainly quite a few people within my own centre-left party (let alone yours) who would be against such a move. Carbon trading schemes would allow a certain amount of marketisation within the greening society but as we have seen recently unless strictly enforced they do not reduce carbon emissions and can simply lead to more market and government failure if too highly or too lightly implemented. This is the question I therefore put to all of you, will we have to become a socialist group of parties (at least in method) to retain our green credentials in the future? And if so will our politicians be honest with the electorate about the resultant changes to their lives of a greening society and economy. As I said earlier, I'm still sceptical.



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Re: Does being green mean being socialist? (#1)

We need to build alternative power structures to the central decision making bodies in the community.  If power is in the hands of the many then perhaps they will excercise it in the majority interest.

Re: Does being green mean being socialist? (#2)

Hi John

Thanks for opening this thread - refreshing change from deputy leadership.

I think you have a rather outdated view of Labour and you are in the wrong Party if you want to see effective political leadership on climate change. The problem with Lib Dem green taxation proposals is that people who can afford to just pay more may not change, and some people on lower incomes who rely on car transport but can't afford to change (like many here in Cornwall and other rural areas) might be hit hardest if they were ever implemented.

There's a web forum at the moment on whether the Climate Change Bill should include a role for local government, at
http://forums.parliament.uk/climate-bill . I hope it will. Local communities need to identify the changes which will work best for their areas in other ways while reducing carbon emissions.

Re: Does being green mean being socialist? (#3)

No I don't think I'm in the wrong party, and although the green taxes will hit some people hard, thats rather the point (you cant change peoples behaviour with a £100 tax on a £30000 car). I personally think New Labour's track record hasn't been all that good on the environment (failing to reduce emmissions and using figures dating back from 1992 when the coal mines were closing to cover this up). Although I do see myself as a natural progressive voter so maybe if Labour get their act together and stop pandering to the authoritarian right I might see my way back to the fold.
 My point in this article however is that although I'm very enthusiastic about getting Local communities more power to tackle climate change (almost sounds like a lib dem policy;) is that in order to tackle climate change it'll probably take a far greater effort than significant but relatively small changes like the climate change bill. So the question is in order to do this will the politicians have to go back to greater overall state control not seen since the last true labour governments or even maybe WW2 or is their an alternative?
Thanks for the link anyway, I'll be happy to check it out.

Re: Does being green mean being socialist? (#11)

Labour in govt is building international action, which is what is needed as the UK's emissions are a tiny part of the global problem.


Your tax proposals would be an intervention in the market, and unrelated to income. The problem being that people on lower incomes who could least afford the tax hike also have least capacity to switch vehicles.

Do you think govt policy should require businesses to behave ethically, or is that unacceptable interference from a Lib Dem viewpoint? On govt track record we've come a very long way since Michael Howard as environment minister refused to monitor power station emissions!

And we are leading the calls for more international action.

Re: Does being green mean being socialist? (#12)

I don't really want to get into a party competition about who's the greenest (although we sooo are ;p), read our mini manifesto if you want to find out what we want to do cause it'll be a lot quicker than me typing the entire thing out!

Re: Does being green mean being socialist? (#15)

Re your comment #14 below, there is substantial investment in renewable energy research etc.

The waste management track record of Liberal Democrat councils here in Cornwall means they are fast losing their reputation locally as the party for the environment. Which is partly why I think the impact of local decision making on the environment needs to be recognised.


Re: Does being green mean being socialist? (#18)

Absolutely and if they continue with that poor track record then they deserve to be voted out. I live in Epsom and ewell (the last borough council run by an independent residents association (I think)) and they have the worst record on recycling and environmental measures in Surrey (the worst of the worst) and us local liberals are making some real headway in taking them on. I think there has to be a hefty national environmental direction though, it can't just be left up to local organisations. As I said earlier though I don't want to get into a who's best debate (although maybe I'm just stoking healthy competition) but I'll leave you with the simple fact that John Prescott said in 1997 (or some time around then I cannae remember) that if the amount of cars on the road were not reduced during a labour government then he would have failed. CO2 emissions have been increasing throughout the labour government as well and even though they are investing some money into research and development its nowhere near the amount their putting into Trident (a cost that could well be upto £70 billion over its period). I'll leave you with this thought as well, the only parties not advocating atleast a 3% annual cut in emissions are UKIP and the Labour party. Not a good thing

Re: Does being green mean being socialist? (#19)

On the other hand the local Lib Dem council here spends massively more on roads than it does on subsidising bus travel, and only introduced free travel for over-60s when compelled to do so despite the commitment to this in your 2005 manifesto.

Congestion charges made a huge difference in London.

The issue of annual targets maybe less important than independent monitoring and legal requirement to achieve the reductions specified in the Bill.

Re: Does being green mean being socialist? (#22)

I think with congestion charge though, that we need to start building an effective transport system, rather than punishing people for having cars. i think it has been effective though

Re: Does being green mean being socialist? (#4)

There is more truth than you care to admit in the "environmental fascist" jibes. Your whole article is littered with phrases like "government must force" and "there is no middle ground on environmentalism".

 
You complained in one of your comments that New Labour was "pandering to the authoritarian-right". Don't you see that your outlook on this issue is entirely an "authoritarian-left" one? It's all government action, government action, government action. Technology, the market, business and individuals all have much more of a role to play than the government laying down the law.


Re: Does being green mean being socialist? (#5)

Being fascist is very different to being socialist, one is  the monitoring and seizing of peoples individual personal liberty for a greater state and the other is the state taking control (or more usually a very active role) in the economy for the benefit of not the state but the working classes. It depends on your views on economic activity as to which type is more authoritarian. However, I have heard of some BNP members claiming to be environmentalists and donning green issues as their own so I take your point.
I know that it isn't all about government action and that there are ways of dealing with it through technology and such like and I'd like it to be that way. I am fearful (rather than hopeful like the greens are) however that we may not be able to deal with this urgent issue through these means because the process of greening our economy is not in the short term interests of our businesses and individuals. The question is simple, in order to stop people taking flights on holidays and reducing car travel and pollution overall is there another way of doing this than through hard line (and probably largely unpopular) government action? The Stern report says we need to start reducing our carbon emmissions at a rate of 7% a year. Bill Clinton tried the voluntary individualist approach and it simply didn't work while its no surprise that George Bush (a man who doesn't even think climate change exists) always talks about the need for more technology before government action is taken. This is not meant to be a sting against New Labour (although I have made plenty of those on my own personal site;) but rather to debate how we can deal with this problem and whether it is dealable.

Re: Does being green mean being socialist? (#6)

I think you're misunderstanding what people mean when they talk about "Green fascists". They're not implying that the Green Party wants to invade Poland - it's just shorthand for "authoritarian"

However you put it, Green politics tends to be rather authoritarian.  

Re: Does being green mean being socialist? (#7)

True I suppose I'm just getting picky about the word fascist, fascists want to end individual liberty for the purpose of a powerful corporate state whereas greens are actually very liberal when it comes to individual liberty (civil rights, greater democracy etc) but take the very left wing view that 'true' freedom and economic freedom are not at all linked. they are authoritarian when it comes to personal environmental matters though and would probably try to put in ultra personal regulation on what you can and can't do with relation to the environment. But they have a liberal view of humanity (albeit an incredibly left wing one) and are fundamentally not an authoritarian party (they believe in power to individual people not to the state (although not to businesses or firms either)).

Re: Does being green mean being socialist? (#8)

I think you've got a rather idealistic view of the Greens. You seem to be falling over yourself to defend what is quite a lunatic outfit.

Re: Does being green mean being socialist? (#13)

Not really, I'm  not a green myself, theres just a world of difference between the strange mix of anarchism and marxism of the Greens and fascism. I suppose I find ideas and ideals very important and interesting so maybe thats why I'm so picky about people getting them right.

Re: Does being green mean being socialist? (#21)

I think we're getting sidetracked over a semantic arguement - accepted that people sometimes use the term 'fascist' as short hand for 'authoritarian' an move on.

My point was that the Greens (rightly) see global warming as a problem but have a tendancy to see the solution as being the state authoritarianism.

I suspect it's because Green politics is full of old-style socialists who long the anti-capitalism arguement in the grounds of economics and now try to argue it on the basis of "we're killing the planet"

Re: Does being green mean being socialist? (#9)

"Technology, the market, business and individuals all have much more of a role to play than the government laying down the law." Market-fundamentalism...

Re: Does being green mean being socialist? (#10)

Yawn.

Sometimes the government can lead, rather than just order people around. 

Re: Does being green mean being socialist? (#14)

yeh I'm getting some of that from one or 2 of the lib dem bloggers as well (for some reason the bloggers for the libs tend to be rather closer to the libertarian wing than the normal bloc party. Its strange how conservatives have managed to get it into people's heads that government cant possibly work well. They then of course get into government and prove their own point! I'm no socialist but I see government taking a relatively strong lead when it comes to changing the infrastructure of our country to be more green. Thats why I'm so dissapointed about Tony Blair and Gordon investing billions in trident (preparing for situations that are not certain) yet putting patheticly small amounts into changing our countries infrastructure to be more green(preparing for a situation that is certain). Ohh well, maybe if the lib dems get a bit more influential we'll get something done about the current situation.

Re: Does being green mean being socialist? (#16)

I've mostly found the LibDems I have encountered to be of the "libertarian" (i.e. right-wing) section of the party personally. The social-liberal (centre left) strand I have met tended to be the younger members, such as LibDem students, so maybe it's a generational thing. Found myself to get on quite well with the social-liberal lot when we compared notes.

Re: Does being green mean being socialist? (#17)

I think the libertarians form quite a strong minority within the party membership but they simply don't represent the sort of people who vote for us. As much as they'd hate to admit it we are a social democratic party and as a result we're a lot more successful; than parties like the free-democrats in Ireland and Germany. pity we don't have PR then we'd actually get the same sort of power that those foreign liberal parties get.

Re: Does being green mean being socialist? (#20)

I think you're going to be rather disappointed then when the standard bearers of the party's right (Clegg & Huhne) take over after the next election.

Re: Does being green mean being socialist? (#23)

With Clegg I can see your point. Although he's incredibly charming and a dead straight liberal (just see him talk about Europe and civil liberties) but when it comes to a choice between tax rises and tax cuts he certainly is in favour of the former and would like to adopt David Law's idea of turning the NHS into a social insurance system (although I think the lib dem membership would put up quite a bit of oppossition to this and such a change would have to get through a conference vote).
Huhne however comes more from the social-liberal wing of the party. He objected to the orange book proposals on healthcare (even though he contributed to the book) and is an ex-Labour member who joined the social democrats during the 80s.
So don't be so sceptical about our future leader prospects, theres actually quite a significant choice there (personally I'm in favour of having Clegg as leader and general spokesman for the party but Huhne as Shadow Chancellor and in charge of policy).

Re: Does being green mean being socialist? (#24)

Don't get me wrong, I like Clegg and Huhne - I'm sure either would be successful as Lib Dem Leader. I just think you're going to be rather upset by how 'right wing' they turn out to be when they take over.

Neither of them are liberal as you understand the word. They are far, far closer to being classical liberals than social democrats.

Re: Does being green mean being socialist? (#25)

With Clegg I can see your point but Huhne at least seems and acts like a social democrat.

Re: Does being green mean being socialist? (#30)

I think you're letting his focus on the environment fool you. You should read the Orange Book.

Re: Does being green mean being socialist? (#31)

Its not so much his environmental stance as his stance on healthcare.

Re: Does being green mean being socialist? (#26)

The thing that worries me about green taxes is that they are not progressive. Like VAT increases they hurt the poor disproportionately.

My preference is to explore regulation and technological avenues first. Eco-houses for instance - if stuff just got built in an energy-efficient way in the first place, individuals wouldn't have to put on sackcloth and ashes. It's actually quite easy to amend building codes to accomodate energy efficient measures. Given that we are getting a lot more sunshine in the south, I'd like grants to go out so that people can put solar panels on their roofs (if it is placed on the roof facing the back-garden, it needn't even be an eye-sore from the street point of view). All the coasts that get strong Atlantic or North winds should have wind-farms licenced. Simple regulation ensuring that office buildings switched off their lights at night would save massive amounts of electricity too. And yes I'm in favour of nuclear power too.

What I'm not in favour of is these big things being neglected and the focus switched instead to harassing some poor family through the tax system. We'd end up hurting lots of people without gaining very much at all from a green point of view.

Re: Does being green mean being socialist? (#28)

Thats why its so important to improve public transport and housing as well as providing cheap renewable energy to the poorest. Environmental taxes work better for corporations and industries though than most trading schemes although you make a very good point. perhaps a zero rate of tax for emmission use below a certain point? Also you can use revenue from green taxes to reduce income tax for the poorest (lifting minimum wagers out of income tax for example). they also are not neccessarily regressive. the biggest users of greenhouse gases are not the poorer families but the richer one who are available to afford large 4x4s and holidays in barbados.

Re: Does being green mean being socialist? (#29)

Thats why its so important to improve public transport and housing as well as providing cheap renewable energy to the poorest. Environmental taxes work better for corporations and industries though than most trading schemes although you make a very good point. perhaps a zero rate of tax for emmission use below a certain point? Also you can use revenue from green taxes to reduce income tax for the poorest (lifting minimum wagers out of income tax for example). they also are not neccessarily regressive. the biggest users of greenhouse gases are not the poorer families but the richer one who are available to afford large 4x4s and holidays in barbados.

Re: Does being green mean being socialist? (#27)

Interesting post Snowflake and I totally agree with your concerns about tax measures which would hit those on low incomes the hardest. Suggest opening a new thread on this one.