Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs

Wiseman Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 03:28:20 PM GMT Print-friendly version Facebook

Dear Comrades

It is beginning to look like the remarkable will happen and that Jon Cruddas may win.  The state of play at the moment is :-

Hilary Benn 76
Jon Cruddas 70

This result makes me even more happy because amongst hilary support is at least 24 left clps which have been loyal to the bennists, but amongst those clps many will vote for Cruddas.  I know anmongst the trade unionist Cruddas will lead ahead of Johnson.  The key will be in the membership vote.  I feel it will be between Cruddas and Benn.  I have Cruddas to snatch it.  I know it is not just me with this feeling.  So I again appeal to John McDonnell supporters. There is a still a victory to be gained here and I know a couple of dozen clps which would have backed McDonnell have supported Benn.  If you are on the left please back Jon.  I have listened to him several times and I must admit he is sounding a better actvist than ever.  Lets change the party, vote cruddas, vote for change and unity!!!





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Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs | 46 comments (46 topical)

Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#1)

by Ian G on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 03:53:25 PM GMT

I'll second that! (though I get a slightly different count to you)

Benn might be an excellent minister, but I'm still unclear on what he wants to make of the deputy leadership job.

Jon has a very clear agenda, to listen to members and represent our views to the cabinet and to devote maximum time and energy to the job of rebuilding our struggling organisation.

As it happens I do share most of Cruddas's politics, but to me the most important thing is the effect that Jon will have on us as a campaigning force. I think that Jon will be the breath of fresh air that's badly needed at the top of our party.


Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#2)

by jonesythered on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 03:57:14 PM GMT

It's true, there are a number of left CLPs in Benn's list - such as Isle of Wight CLP, for example. I don't think that there's a single Blairite in the entire CLP!


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#3)

by jonesythered on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 04:03:28 PM GMT

Indeed, thinking about it, Isle of Wight CLP was one of those that has already overwhelmingly voted to endorse John. I'm also shocked to see that another CLP (Preston) which backed John has nominated Hain! Various other CLPs that have previously backed John have abstained from nominating - Halifax CLP seems to be one such example.


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#12)

by grimupnorth on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 07:16:27 PM GMT

And Calder Valley......Batley and Spen


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#11)

by petercoe on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 07:16:15 PM GMT

...And lo: one of the most pathetic Labour votes anywhere in the country. One day you'll work it out but until then let me help you out: loony left = unelectable; moderate mainstream = electable.


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#13)

by jonesythered on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 07:28:10 PM GMT

I bet you're a really likeable bloke in real life


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#18)

by petercoe on Sat Jun 02, 2007 at 12:35:47 AM GMT

Indeed. Doubt I could return the compliment though.


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#14)

by Wiseman on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 10:24:41 PM GMT

Dear Peter Let me help. Look your entitled to your opinion, but please you have to understand the people above have been in the party a long time and even when they where savaged under Kinnock and Blair they still stay loyal and work the streets of there consituencies. Remember if you don't have progressives the party will become stale and if youn don't have centrists like yourself we would have nobody to debate with. Wiseman


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#15)

by jonesythered on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 10:38:30 PM GMT

Unfortunately Peter isn't a centrist - he wants to end the party's union link, which places him somewhere to the right of Hazel Blears.


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#16)

by Wiseman on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 10:44:07 PM GMT

Jonesy give me some time I work on them to become more progressive. Wiseman


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#20)

by petercoe on Sat Jun 02, 2007 at 12:40:15 AM GMT

I'm progressive John - more progressive than the hard left who made Labour unelectable throughout the 1980s and are champing at the bit to do so again. You see, before you enact a single progressive policy you need to win elections. You win elections from the centre, not the extremes, as the Tories have been discovering.


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#21)

by otware on Sat Jun 02, 2007 at 01:13:38 AM GMT

Labelling Thatcherism as progressive in new to me, Peter.


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#22)

by jkitleft on Sat Jun 02, 2007 at 10:46:34 AM GMT

I do not think in any sense of the word, we should be 'centrist'. Even if we are a gnat's whisker to the left-of-centre, it's better than a self described socialist party being on the centre


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#35)

by petercoe on Sat Jun 02, 2007 at 08:42:09 PM GMT

Wasn't aware that I had, Otware, but you just keep inventing and misinterpreting others' comments if it makes you feel good.


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#24)

by Sensible Comrade on Sat Jun 02, 2007 at 12:54:12 PM GMT

But the government is extremely right-wing (in Labour terms) at the moment but we are still losing control of Scotland/Wales and local authorities all over the UK. So it is clearly stupid to claim that "the centre ground = automoatic popularity" as an absolute truth. Anyway, how can the centre ground even be firmly defined? Its obviously just a rhetorical device that was employed in the 1990s to signal Labour's moderation. I agreed with Blair that we need to be pragmatic and ditch unpopular policies. That is why we need to admit that Iraq was a terrible mistake and be seen to radically change as a party!


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#25)

by otware on Sat Jun 02, 2007 at 03:35:40 PM GMT

I agree the centre ground is constantly changing. Listen to Harman, she is still 'clinging to the centre ground' and yet tagging along with the soft left. The centre ground more than anything is linked to popular opinion, and popular opinion is going against the government at the moment.


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#36)

by petercoe on Sat Jun 02, 2007 at 08:54:01 PM GMT

Your logic is completely twisted. Losing control of authorities is a symptom of being in power, not of the ideology of the party in power.

The Labour Government in 1968 was by your definition far to the left of the current one; it got routed in the 1968 elections to a far worse extent than this current government ever has. Same with the 1978 elections - the Tories won even more councils and councillors then than they hold at the moment. Equally, the Tories lost more and more seats in local government the longer they were in power.

Look: on the very same day that Labour won its 1997 landslide it was losing control of county councils the length of the country; which by itself proves that there's no correlation between ideology and council election success.

You can dispute the truism that the party closest to the political centre wins the election but it doesn't stop it being true. And if you think just admitting that Iraq was a mistake and the clouds will part you're absurd (there's plenty of evidence on this forum that saying sorry isn't good enough for some) - why are the left always backward looking?

People want solutions to todays problems, not endless, trite and quite pointless mea culpas that don't change reality a jot.


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#38)

by jkitleft on Sat Jun 02, 2007 at 10:49:09 PM GMT

Council election results are fragile. They will always favor the opposition, because people belive they're making a statement for voting for the Tories now that Labour are in power. Tories lost councils this time around based on the fortnightly rubbish collection issue. But it's not going to decide a general election.


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#42)

by petercoe on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 01:54:28 PM GMT

We agree on something, jkit! Yay! Hope that doesn't prompt you to change your mind...


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#43)

by jkitleft on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 07:23:46 PM GMT

That however Peter, doesn't mean that I don't think our positions on many issues will cost us at a GE.


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#44)

by petercoe on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 07:40:40 PM GMT

...No, and equally it doesn't mean that I don't think Labour's positions on many issues will make the GE result far less bad than it would be if people with the sort of agenda you advocate were in control...

But can we stop writing in double negatives please?


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#19)

by petercoe on Sat Jun 02, 2007 at 12:38:51 AM GMT

Well I was only a party member for 20 years, which may not count for "a long time" in your books. This has nothing to do with length of membership, or even length of time spent in party committee meetings (though no doubt several activists keep detailed records of their stints) - this is simply about the blatantly obvious assertion that activists tend to be to the left of both the inactive membership and the public as a whole; and as such the number of activist-nominations any candidates get isn't any reflection of how the result will go. That's all. Not sure why a statement of the obvious is causing such trauma.


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#4)

by Lorin on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 04:06:40 PM GMT

Even though I can't vote, I think I'll support Crudass, even though he didn't support McDonnell. We need to vote Cruddas in to send a message to Gordon.


Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#6)

by jkitleft on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 05:28:28 PM GMT

why can't you vote?


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#9)

by Lorin on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 06:17:57 PM GMT

I'm 15, my 16th is a few weeks after the vote, so too bad for me.


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#8)

by grimupnorth on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 05:32:29 PM GMT

And you think Gordon is going to be worried....sorry but no


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#10)

by Lorin on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 06:20:06 PM GMT

He probably won't , but uncle gordon will have a shock if Cruddas wins.


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#5)

by Andrea on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 04:17:42 PM GMT

From the list on party website, I count (actually Excell counts for me!) 68 for Cruddas and 77 for Benn.


Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#17)

by otware on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 11:56:15 PM GMT

Ahh clever. I was counting manually.


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#7)

by grimupnorth on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 05:31:03 PM GMT

Look, John. Please don't confuse what Cruddas is saying with what his job is going to be. Even if he wins, he will have NO INFLUENCE on policy. And the fact he's supported by 70 CLPs is ...what? Just over a tenth of the possibles and it's OMOV so who knows what will happen.No I'm not voting for him.For reasons you know which I won't repeat.Take a look at the Cruddas fan Club website ( sorry Compass) and see what they are saying about hard left politics and the McDonnellite wing.The attitude is arrogant, pompous and insulting. Brown will take any notice of any of the deputy leadership candiates. He was angry that they stood up for Remploy workers facing the sack - never mind Trident!


Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#23)

by Sensible Comrade on Sat Jun 02, 2007 at 12:51:08 PM GMT

I think most Cruddas supporters are sensible enough to realise that a Cruddas victory wouldn't immediately change government policy drastically. He has, however, helped to raise the issue of housing and put that firmly on the agenda. If he wasn't in the competition can you honestly imagine the other DL candidates talking about housing? I'm not convinced they would be as they've all held prominent government positions for years and don't seem to have been pushing on this issue. Also the main focus of the Cruddas campaign is on reforming the party internally and a Cruddas victory would represent a mandate for changing the party structure. Brown has hinted that he wants the party's character to change so there wouldn't necessarily be massive conflict between them over say abolishing the party chair position, putting some more democracy into organisations such as Young Labour, opening up party conference, etc. Since we all depend on a healthy and dynamic Labour Party which attracts members and encourages them to be active I don't think it is surprising that people from both left and right are attracted to the Cruddas agenda. It's not about shifting the party radically to the left and opposing Gordon Brown over every aspect of policy (since Cruddas would clearly not do these things!) it's about SENSIBLE changes.


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#26)

by otware on Sat Jun 02, 2007 at 03:38:26 PM GMT

Yes I think it's important to stress that Cruddas is not 'far left'. He is not a McDonnellite (as we all know, let's not go there...), and equally he is not a Blairite or even a Brownite really. But his political position is perfect at the moment because he is centrist enough to get on with Brown but still not New Labour. He is a unity candidate.


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#27)

by grimupnorth on Sat Jun 02, 2007 at 03:57:24 PM GMT

Even "sensible changes" ( though surely that's relative) like getting the troops out of Iraq and re-nationalisingthe railways ( supported by Cruddas, the public and Labour Conference) are opposed by Brown. Yes, Cruddas is more acceptable to Brown.Because he is not really that left-wing and the Deputy leader post is, as Roy Hattersley has said, fairly meaningless. If he's elected I hope he can turn Gordon back towards the centre-left but let's stop this "sensible" and "far-left" stuff. There was NO far-left candidate, unless someone advocating the abolition of capitalism and revolutionary socialism slipped through the net when I wasn't looking. THAT ( ie SWP, Workers' Action CPGB ) is Far Left. Brown uses the term deliberately ( he is a former left-winger himself so knows the score exactly) to scare people off socialist left-wingers like John McDonnell.


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#28)

by Sensible Comrade on Sat Jun 02, 2007 at 04:21:59 PM GMT

No of course there was no far left candidate in that sense, just as when I describe Milburn or Byers as far-right I don't mean that they are neo-Nazis. Without wanting to get into another boring and pointless argument over McDonnell, he could easily be placed on the far left of the party (and clearly on the far left of the PLP) due to his membership of the SCG, his rebellious voting record, and his willingness to engage closely with Marxist groups through organisations such as the ""Labour Representation Committee"".


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#29)

by otware on Sat Jun 02, 2007 at 06:30:33 PM GMT

The day McDonnell joins SPEW is the day he becomes 'far left'. New Labour types love to portray Bennites as being extremeist old fashioned communists, but they seem to forget that a lot of what the so called 'far left' advocates was Labour Party policy at one time...and still is now actually =)


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#31)

by jonesythered on Sat Jun 02, 2007 at 06:43:24 PM GMT

Speaking of SPEW - they stood a candidate against John in 2001! Unbelievable.


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#32)

by jkitleft on Sat Jun 02, 2007 at 07:16:10 PM GMT

McD attended the CNWP conference and apparently 'wished it well'


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#30)

by jonesythered on Sat Jun 02, 2007 at 06:42:30 PM GMT

Practically all of the policies advocated by John are Labour Party policy. That supporting policies such as renationalisation of the railways - which was even supposedly supported by New Labour just over a decade ago - now places you on the "far left" just shows how far the political centre of gravity has moved to the right.


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#33)

by otware on Sat Jun 02, 2007 at 07:32:52 PM GMT

Well if privatisation is considered centrist then either the centre ground in the UK is pretty rightwing or New Labour is actually centre-right.


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#34)

by jonesythered on Sat Jun 02, 2007 at 07:56:28 PM GMT

Quite - a poll by the Public Services Not Private Profit campaign last June revealed that only 17% supported privatisation of public services...


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#37)

by petercoe on Sat Jun 02, 2007 at 08:54:41 PM GMT

What was the level of support for motherhood and apple pie?


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#39)

by otware on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 12:31:47 AM GMT

I do wonder what the government eventual goal is with privtisation. Maybe they strive to sell everything, right down to the desks they work at so they won't have any responsibility anymore. lol.

17%, huh? Well that blows the whole 'New Labour is so great if we take one step to the left we will loose the next election and it will be the Bennites fault' theory right out of the water, doesn't it?


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#40)

by grimupnorth on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 11:46:42 AM GMT

You misunderstand. The terms "far left" and "far right" just cannot be used in the context of the Labour Party. Some members ofthe Campaign Group rebel far less than others outside it..... and being comradely to socialists outside the Labour Party but nevertheless on the left is hardly a hanging offence. We work locally with the SWP against the BNP. I think it's called solidarity.......


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#41)

by jkitleft on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 11:54:37 AM GMT

that's right. Dave Anderson has never rebelled against the whip, but Frank Field and Gwyneth Dunwoody are some of the most rebellious MP's


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#45)

by otware on Sun Jun 03, 2007 at 08:37:19 PM GMT

And David Drew is a big supporter of McDonnell but isn't in the SCG.


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Re: Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs (#46)

by Group51 on Sat Jun 09, 2007 at 01:29:01 AM GMT

I don't really understand this idea that Cruddas is a left-winger. There are no left-wingers in the election.

He did say 'yes' to the railway nationalisation question on Newsnight, but on his website, he talked about the Network Rail model, and not for profit, which is a more subtle position. He specifically said that he didn't want to return to the 1950s. I'm suprised how much I agree with his policy positions, standards not structures in education, no hatred of the private sector, but no hatred of the public sector either. He seems to like David Milliband and supports integrated transport, he voted against trident because there needs to be a defence review. He is pragmatically pro Nuclear power, and he says things on immigration and housing that have led the debate in a rather progressive manner.

And I find him likeable and geniune. Yep, I'll post off my votes tomorow.


Cruddas closes gap on Benn to 6 CLPs | 46 comments (46 topical)