The West Lothian Question

otware Sun May 06, 2007 at 06:50:53 PM GMT Print-friendly version Facebook

What with the recent elections in the Scottish Parliament, Welsh Assemby and NI Ireland Assembly I thought it might be the right time to open this can of worms.



My personal opinion is that the current form of devolution is totally ludicrous. Why should Scotland and Wales have different levels of devolution? And shouldn't the powers of the legislatures be entrenched, rather than changeable from Westminster?

To me, it seems totally wrong that Scotland and Wales (we'll ignore NI for the moment) should be over-represented compared to England.

As such, in my opinion, the only way to go is to have a truly federal system (not the current quasi-federal constitutional mess) with devolved legislatures all over the country, each with the same powers. It is the only truly democratic way forward in my opinion.

However, the major stumbling block is the results of the referendum in the North East. It seems there is (or was) no mood for devolutin in England.

What are your views on this issue? What about Northern Ireland?


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The West Lothian Question | 24 comments (24 topical)

Re: The West Lothian Question (#1)

by JR on Sun May 06, 2007 at 09:15:56 PM GMT

Can you change the poll since none of the options fits my views? I want there to be equal devolution across all of the UK, but not a federal system (which is something different).

For England, I still think the govt. should push ahead with nine regional assemblies and collectively they can be called the English Parliament. Some powers can be given to Parliament level (so all assemblies decide collectively) and some powers given to regional assembly level. Wales, Scotland and NI should all have their own Parliaments.


Re: The West Lothian Question (#5)

by otware on Sun May 06, 2007 at 10:18:43 PM GMT

Done. I pretty much agree, which is a first. lol.

To be honest I'd be happy to simply see equal devolution. I don't realy mind. But the idea of a federal system with fully entrenched powers of the legislatures and proper codified constitution seems to me to be what we should strive for.


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Re: The West Lothian Question (#2)

by jkitleft on Sun May 06, 2007 at 09:22:37 PM GMT

What i find ironic, is that people may lambast the Government on the West Lothian question, and saying how Scotland and Wales get treated specially, when these were probably the same people who would have voted 'no' in the 2004 North-East assembly referendum.


Re: The West Lothian Question (#3)

by jkitleft on Sun May 06, 2007 at 09:26:30 PM GMT

I think we need the regional assemblies and parliaments incorporated into some sort of Constitution, where by subsequuent amendments can be passed (like the American system). However, some elements need to be more like the Canadian system, whereby federal decisions outweigh state/provincial decisions


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Re: The West Lothian Question (#6)

by otware on Sun May 06, 2007 at 10:20:03 PM GMT

I think part of the problem may have been from the phrasing of the question in the referendum. But I'm not sure, as I'm trying to remember an A-level politics lesson from a fair few months ago. Hmmm.


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Re: The West Lothian Question (#8)

by jkitleft on Sun May 06, 2007 at 11:35:11 PM GMT

in the North East referendum?

It's an intersting question about how referendum questions should be phrased, as it could all become key in a referendum in 2010 (which won't be passed in principle) but could all depend on the phrasing of the question


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Re: The West Lothian Question (#9)

by otware on Mon May 07, 2007 at 01:02:42 AM GMT

What referendum?


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Re: The West Lothian Question (#11)

by MikeHobday on Mon May 07, 2007 at 01:56:52 AM GMT

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3984387.stm

Next time, try researching what you propose first?


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Re: The West Lothian Question (#13)

by otware on Mon May 07, 2007 at 11:47:26 AM GMT

You bloody idiot. Obviously I know about that referendum, I was the one who brought it up!

He was talking about the proposed independence referendum in Scotland, and I didn't realise.


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Re: The West Lothian Question (#12)

by jkitleft on Mon May 07, 2007 at 10:12:18 AM GMT

the one the SNP are proposing


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Re: The West Lothian Question (#4)

by MikeHobday on Sun May 06, 2007 at 10:02:38 PM GMT

What a ridiculous idea!

Why should all regions be forced to have the same level of devolution. Why should the East of England hold back Scotland, for example.

What is wrong with the Spanish system where each region negotiates an appropriate level of power?

Mike


Re: The West Lothian Question (#7)

by otware on Sun May 06, 2007 at 10:21:44 PM GMT

But why would the East of England hold back Scotland? The whole idea is that the regions would become more detatched and be able to govern themselves.


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Re: The West Lothian Question (#10)

by MikeHobday on Mon May 07, 2007 at 01:55:39 AM GMT

If, as suggested, "devolved legislatures all over the country, each [have] the same powers", then this can be imposed on an unwilling region (despite, say, North East referendum) or can wait until each region wants it. The former is hardly the democracy you say you want. the latter means that the slowest region holds back the fastest.

And all this to dance on a constitutional pin.


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Re: The West Lothian Question (#16)

by JR on Mon May 07, 2007 at 07:55:34 PM GMT

I fail to believe that people in the North would rather be ruled by Westminster than closer to home.

The reason why the NE referendum failed was because the govt. didn't offer to devolve enough power.


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Re: The West Lothian Question (#17)

by Glass House on Mon May 07, 2007 at 07:59:48 PM GMT

Actually, it was because of a crap campaign. The polls showed most people for the assembly before the campaign.


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Re: The West Lothian Question (#14)

by doctordunc on Mon May 07, 2007 at 04:49:07 PM GMT


I think this is a red herring.  There are loads of reforms that are 'imposed' on 'unwilling regions' - on those issues the government just makes a decision and forces it through (public sector 'reform', various re-organisations, unelected regional assemblies, etc.) and referendums get used when people either don't really mind what the decision is, or certainly don't want to be held accountable for it.  

Having said that, there's no reason why reluctance for democracy in one part of the country should hamstring it elsewhere: but ever region should have an equal option.  In the US some states have very few state rules and laws and prefer to defer to the federal ones, whereas others are very independent.  There's no reason why it couldn't be the same here.  However, I think elected regional assemblies is a minimum level of devolution: further devolution of legislative powers could be negotiated from that point.

This is just a personal view, obviously.


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Re: The West Lothian Question (#21)

by otware on Tue May 08, 2007 at 08:24:27 AM GMT

Hmm I'm coming round to the idea of a more flexible form of devolution. I guess Scotland would require more powers than East Anglia, for example. The mot important thing in my opinion is that all the legislatures have legislative and andministrative devolution, and that these powers are entrenched in a codified constitution.


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Re: The West Lothian Question (#15)

by Glass House on Mon May 07, 2007 at 07:54:58 PM GMT

Ideally, I'd like to see elected English Regional Assemblies/Parliaments with powers on par with the Scottish & Welsh devolved institutions.

Unfortunately, the referendum in the North East has kicked that into the long grass for a generation.

So, as a stop gap, I'd back and English Parliament with the same powers as the Scottish one (the Welsh Assembly should be given the same powers too). At least if we do it, we can set the terms (such as proportional representation to stop it being Tory dominated - something that an incoming UK Tory administration would not do)

Maybe locality working in the English Parliament can gradually morph into regional assemblies.


Re: The West Lothian Question (#18)

by otware on Mon May 07, 2007 at 11:07:55 PM GMT

Yhe it's a start I guess. I don't reckon 1 big parliament for England will do much good though, England is so big compared to Scotland, Wales and N Ireland that wuch a legislature would challenge the position of the Westminster Parliament. Regional Assemblies are def the way to go in my opinion.


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Re: The West Lothian Question (#19)

by Glass House on Mon May 07, 2007 at 11:13:03 PM GMT

I agree, but the English Parliament at least solves the West Lothian Question and is a small step on the road to proper devolution. We can only do what is politically acceptable at any one time - this is the best we could do for now.


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Re: The West Lothian Question (#20)

by otware on Tue May 08, 2007 at 08:21:23 AM GMT

So you think the best way to start is to make one big devolved assmebly for england, as opposed to setting them up as and when people support regional ones in referenda? I guess ultimately it does get the root of the problem (West Lothian Questions), but it does sound like an expensive way of doing it. It'd work though, and it's better than no devolution at all.


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Re: The West Lothian Question (#22)

by jkitleft on Tue May 08, 2007 at 05:25:46 PM GMT

I think it will divide us into Scots, Welsh, English etc. if we do it in that way, with increased hostility towards each other


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Re: The West Lothian Question (#23)

by Glass House on Tue May 08, 2007 at 06:12:27 PM GMT

I think people are dividing up anyway. The best way of avoiding hostility is to make sure that people don't think that those on the other side of the divide are getting special treatment.


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Re: The West Lothian Question (#24)

by otware on Tue May 08, 2007 at 10:11:07 PM GMT

But we are already divided as such. It seems much better to me to encourage the different cultures within the UK than to try and make one unified and totally false 'British' culture.


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The West Lothian Question | 24 comments (24 topical)