Neo-cons out to get Hilary?

Simon Morley Wed May 30, 2007 at 02:47:53 PM GMT Print-friendly version Facebook

A quick scan through today’s online broadsheets turned up this comment piece in today’s torygraph by Irwin Stelzer, at a critical point in the Deputy Leader campaign. Basically, Wolfowitz could have stayed at the World Bank if it hadn’t been for Hilary supporting our EU partners who wanted Wolfowitz out just because of Iraq.



Er, ‘just’ because of Iraq? Stelzer contrasts this with the mockery of Zimbabwe holding the chair of the UN’s sustainable economic development committee. Except, presumably the function of the World Bank is also sustainable economic development? Leaving to one side that the WB itself doesn’t actually have a good track record on that, nobody denies the US Department of Defence, where Wolfowitz served previously, was given sole responsibility for post-invasion Iraq. I don’t know about you, and its not a choice I would want to have to make, but I suspect I would choose Zimbabwe over Iraq to live in present circumstances. I’m not completely convinced by the suggestion of Adam Curtis in The Trap that the neo-cons deliberately wanted no planned reconstruction in Iraq because of their fundamentalist belief in the power of ‘the market’, though the necessary state building was something they bizarrley hoped they wouldn't need to do. I don’t think anyone sees the Riza affair that actually saw Wolfowitz off as an isolated incident, but as yet more conservative hypocrisy that equal opportunities are good, once you have given unfair advantages to your friends. Given that it is grievance rather than poverty as such that drives terrorism, I thought Hilary’s focus on international justice on Newsnight made a lot of sense, becuase it is fundamentally at odds with the neo-con focus on short-term self-interest above all else.



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Neo-cons out to get Hilary? | 32 comments (32 topical)

Re: Neo-cons out to get Hilary? (#1)

by Loz on Wed May 30, 2007 at 04:07:54 PM GMT

It would be a very sad day for america if hillary were to win. Obama whilst full of hope is too inexperienced and is showing this more and more. I know it will make me unpopular here, but I'm backing Rudy, and would do so over any of the democratic candidates. However, it looks like the right wing attack machine has all but destroyed him, despite the fact he still has the lead. Hillary Clinton is an awful women, an opportunist who was plotting her way into the white house while bill clinton was having it away with a plethora of women in arkansas.


Re: Neo-cons out to get Hilary? (#12)

by jonesythered on Wed May 30, 2007 at 11:37:58 PM GMT

Surprisingly enough, you're right Loz. Backing a Republican presidential candidate will, in all likelihood, make you fairly unpopular in this particular forum. That is because this is "Labourhome" (the clue is in the name). Given the contributors are either social democrats or democratic socialists, I don't think there's going to be much support for a US Republican politician. I know, I know, a bit of a bombshell for you there...


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Re: Neo-cons out to get Hilary? (#13)

by Glass House on Thu May 31, 2007 at 12:55:50 AM GMT

constructive


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Re: Neo-cons out to get Hilary? (#14)

by Glass House on Thu May 31, 2007 at 12:56:59 AM GMT

Is it something about Rudy that particularly attracts you to him or are you just THAT unimpressed by the potential Democrat nominations?


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Re: Neo-cons out to get Hilary? (#15)

by Loz on Thu May 31, 2007 at 01:37:39 PM GMT

Rudy has shown himself to be a very moderate republican. Really only a republican in name. Pro choice, pro gay marriage, very welfare supportive. And all of that despite being a republican. He's so moderate he will in the end crash and burn I'm afraid. But as I've made clear before, the number one issue for me is the war on terror. For me, it's a matter of our survival and none of the democrat candidates are anywhere near to the position I hold on that, so I could never support them (not that it matters being as I wouldn't be able to vote anyway). As for the idiot that made that point, I would simply say that I'm not a lamb and I don't follow anything I don't agree with and never will do. There are communists in our ranks, people that admire dicatators like Chavez and Castro. What on earth do those cretins have in common with Labour Party values? Absolutely nothing is the answer.


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Re: Neo-cons out to get Hilary? (#16)

by Glass House on Thu May 31, 2007 at 02:00:32 PM GMT

Talking about Castro - the Guardian published an article by him yesterday!

How dare he cast judgement on democratically elected leaders. I hope it hurts like hell when he dies.

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/fidel_castro/2007/05/ideas_cannot_be_killed.html


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Re: Neo-cons out to get Hilary? (#2)

by doctordunc on Wed May 30, 2007 at 04:26:13 PM GMT

I think this was about Hilary Benn, not Hilary Clinton, Loz!


Re: Neo-cons out to get Hilary? (#3)

by Loz on Wed May 30, 2007 at 04:29:21 PM GMT

Just thought I'd get that off my chest! I saw the headline and jumped right in! lol (not used to hearing brits refered to as neo cons)


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Re: Neo-cons out to get Hilary? (#4)

by stuartm on Wed May 30, 2007 at 05:57:28 PM GMT

It seems that Benn supporters are now relying on Irwin Seltzer to big up Hilary. When in fact Hilary shares the same view as the neo-cons on Iraq. Hillary has the same simplistic and myopic analysis of the situation in Iraq as Bush and Blair: namely a plucky little democracy which needs to be protected from terrorists. There is plenty wrong with this analysis: First having an election is not the same as having a democracy. Even Saddam had elections. Second the record of the Iraqi government is appaling. It has not governed in the national interest but only in the sectarian interest. Its policies only fuel the civil war. Its police is infiltrated by militias whose commanders sit round the cabinet table. Is Hilary seriously trying to say that this is a government which can command respect? Has he forgottten that the Govenment of which he is a memeber insisted that the IRA put away its guns before being allowed into the political process. Why should that not apply to politicians wisahing to serve in the Iraqi government. The sooner we realise that US/UK support for the Iraqi government is the problem and not the solution the sooner we can find a political solution which would be a precondition for withdrawal. We need to find a way of internationalising the Iraqi problem. Drawing the UN into establishing a conference of all partied to the conflict involving Sunni and Shia groupd and representatives of neighbouring government. As for Irwin Seltzer the threat of US disengagement is a hollow threat. At teh end of the day they need the UN as much as the EU. If we believe in multilateralism we should practice it.


Re: Neo-cons out to get Hilary? (#5)

by Glass House on Wed May 30, 2007 at 06:08:13 PM GMT

"First having an election is not the same as having a democracy. Even Saddam had elections. Second the record of the Iraqi government is appaling."

Wow. Just wow!

Thats just about the most ignorant, despotic, illiberal thing I've ever read on these forums.

Your contempt for the democratic choices of the Iraqi people singles you out as worryingly authoritarian individual.


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Re: Neo-cons out to get Hilary? (#6)

by stuartm on Wed May 30, 2007 at 06:19:54 PM GMT

Sorry I have the utmost respect for the rights of the Iraqi people to exercise their choice in a free and democratic election. The problem is that the elections which did take place was neither free or fair. My point about the current governmentis not authoritarian. What is authoritarian is the way the US has manipulated their puppet government to pass legislation which gives US oil companies exclusive rights to exploit Iraq's oil reserves.


Re: Neo-cons out to get Hilary? (#7)

by Glass House on Wed May 30, 2007 at 06:24:00 PM GMT

Evidence that the elections were not free of fair?


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Re: Neo-cons out to get Hilary? (#8)

by Glass House on Wed May 30, 2007 at 06:24:30 PM GMT

free or fair


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Re: Neo-cons out to get Hilary? (#9)

by Loz on Wed May 30, 2007 at 07:38:50 PM GMT

He will have none glasshouse as the observers , were largely impressed with the elections.


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Re: Neo-cons out to get Hilary? (#10)

by Glass House on Wed May 30, 2007 at 08:00:32 PM GMT

Yeah, I know. I'm just waiting for him to quote some bizarre source from a fringe website in an attempt to justify his hatred of Iraqi democracy.


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Re: Neo-cons out to get Hilary? (#11)

by Glass House on Wed May 30, 2007 at 08:03:52 PM GMT

And maybe squirm around trying to find any evidence that the "US has manipulated their puppet government to pass legislation which gives US oil companies exclusive rights to exploit Iraq's oil reserves."

Not quite sure how a government elected by the Iraqi people can be considered "a puppet" but, hay-ho, the guy's got to perform some kind of intellectual backflip to avoid having to admit to himself that the Iraqi people might not believe what he wants them to believe.


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Re: Neo-cons out to get Hilary? (#17)

by stuartm on Thu May 31, 2007 at 06:04:46 PM GMT

As requested here is an article by Scott Ritter you might like to look at: http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/21566/


[ Parent ]

Re: Neo-cons out to get Hilary? (#21)

by Glass House on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 10:35:08 AM GMT

I'm sorry, but you DO realise that the article you link to isn't about the Iraq election we're talking about? PLEASE tell me you do!

You DO realise that the election of the Iraqi Transitional Government (the Constitutional Convention) in Jan 2005) is different from the elections which we're talking about (the one you remember on the news - to form the first Permanent Iraqi Government) in December 2005.

I've got a horrible feeling you don't - or, if you do, you didn't actually notice that the article you linke to was published NINE MONTHS before the December 2005 elections - the elections to form the first Iraqi Government - that we (and everyone else who refers to "the Iraqi elections") are talking about.


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Re: Neo-cons out to get Hilary? (#18)

by repub on Thu May 31, 2007 at 11:04:01 PM GMT

You can squirm around and try and argue that the election of the Iraqi government was democratic. Go on. Announcing candidate lists prior to the day of the ballot is often a good start. Also can you remind me whether or not all Iraqi MPs who were elected had early withdrawal of all coalition troops in their 'manifesto'? I think they did. I think that was a pre-requisite for getting anywhere in even such a fixed-up election!


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Re: Neo-cons out to get Hilary? (#19)

by Loz on Thu May 31, 2007 at 11:30:44 PM GMT

The point is, the government they formed amongst themselves decided not to push forward that policy. At times they've near enough begged for us to stay.


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Re: Neo-cons out to get Hilary? (#20)

by jonesythered on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 10:11:29 AM GMT

All opinion surveys conducted in Iraq for the past three years have revealed that an overwhelming majority of the Iraqi population support the immediate withdrawal of the occupation forces. The only group where there is not a majority in favour of withdrawal are the Kurds of Northern Iraq.

For example, an opinion poll conducted by the Ministry of Defence in August 2004 revealed that 83% of Iraqis supported the immediate withdrawal of occupying troops; the hostility to the occupation was so great that nearly 50% supported attacks on US/UK forces.


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Re: Neo-cons out to get Hilary? (#22)

by Glass House on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 10:38:49 AM GMT

Does that mean that we aren't living in a democracy because Labour wont got with public opinion in bringing back the death penalty?


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Re: Neo-cons out to get Hilary? (#24)

by jonesythered on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 11:11:28 AM GMT

There is a difference between failing to reintroduce a controversial approach to criminal justice in Britain which enjoys, at best, the passive support of a small majority of the population; and defying the overwhelming will of a people living under a catastrophic military occupation who want nothing more than their independence.

The death penalty isn't an existential question for our society; whether or not Iraqis live under the constant domination of foreign troops is.


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Re: Neo-cons out to get Hilary? (#25)

by Glass House on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 11:47:08 AM GMT

And who decides whether an issue is 'big' enough so as to mean that not going with exactly what the public wants makes democracy a sham?


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Re: Neo-cons out to get Hilary? (#26)

by jonesythered on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 11:50:48 AM GMT

Glass House, surely you can see the difference between ignoring passive support for a controversial measure on criminal justice, or ignoring overwhelming support for ending the foreign domination of your country?

If you can't then I'm afraid there's not much point continuing this discussion.


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Re: Neo-cons out to get Hilary? (#27)

by Glass House on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 11:54:38 AM GMT

I don't think they're ignoring the Iraqi people. I think that the Iraqi government is working towards a situation in which the Coalition forces can leave without having a civil war.


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Re: Neo-cons out to get Hilary? (#28)

by jonesythered on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 12:06:24 PM GMT

Without having a civil war? As opposed to the situation now which is what exactly?

Do you realise that the presence of occupying troops are the focus of the continuing violence (excluding the violence committed by the occupation itself)? Do you realise that virtually every jihadi in the Middle East has gone to Iraq to cause mayhem precisely because of the continued presence of these troops?


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Re: Neo-cons out to get Hilary? (#29)

by Glass House on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 12:13:56 PM GMT

"Do you realise that the presence of occupying troops are the focus of the continuing violence "

Evidence?

"Do you realise that virtually every jihadi in the Middle East has gone to Iraq to cause mayhem precisely because of the continued presence of these troops?"

And you thik they'll all leave if the Coalition forces do? Did the Religious fundementalists leave Afghanistan after the Soviets did?


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Re: Neo-cons out to get Hilary? (#30)

by jonesythered on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 12:47:05 PM GMT

It's fairly obvious that anti-American jihadis are in Iraq to get the chance to attack American forces!

Furthermore, even the head of the British Army has publicly admitted that the continued presence of British troops (never mind US troops) is contributing to the continuing "instability" (to put it mildly) in Iraq.


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Re: Neo-cons out to get Hilary? (#31)

by Glass House on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 01:03:07 PM GMT

You haven't answered either of my questions.


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Re: Neo-cons out to get Hilary? (#32)

by Loz on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 10:39:09 PM GMT

He might have said that, but the equally trained and experienced americans aren't saying that, and they should know better, they're running most of the show. Cut, run and surrender will be defeat. Why do people like to pretend things would be better if we pulled out? They seem to have this crazy belief that all the nice terrorists will just get back on with their lives. I mean because, now that they've got rid of those big bad americans, who are building them hospitals and schools, things can only get better right?


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Re: Neo-cons out to get Hilary? (#23)

by Glass House on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 10:39:54 AM GMT

links to evidence of those two claims?


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Neo-cons out to get Hilary? | 32 comments (32 topical)