Why has Harriet Harman lost the plot?

On a day when George Osborne is claiming that Cameron's Tories are the 'heir to Blair' and accused Labour of 'lurching to the left' why on earth did Harriet Harman give him ammunation with her skin-crawling unprincipled performance during the Deputy Leadership debate on Newsnight?

Have some members of the party simply forgotten the mistakes of the past or do they desire to see the party crash and burn and commit electoral suicide?

I'll quote a comment that was on The Times website this morning:

"I'm not particularly conservative, but as a moderate I found that whole debate terrifying. Socialism?? Redistribution of wealth?? From each according to his ability to each according to his needs??? I'm sorry, but did the last 20 years happen or did we just dream them? I'm going to miss Labour. But they can't if they talk like the USSR never fell. They scare me. I'll bet they scare a lot of people. It's time for them to go, as they seem to have no ability to learn from the mistakes of their past." Chris, Dulwich, UK

I'd expect this kind of idiotic thinking from Jon Cruddas who looks and sounds about as trustworthy as a second-hand car salesman. It was also disappointing to hear Hilary Benn slipping in the odd flirt with the left just to show he's a man of all the people - it hardly does the party's image any good with the wider electorate.

But by far the biggest shambles of the night was Harriet Harman. After desperately clinging on to her Cabinet position for all these years, now Blair is going, she decided to stab him in the back and reject all the principles which she herself had backed for a decade. Amnesty for illegal immigrants? Taxing the David Beckhams of the world until their hair stands on end? Going on about people buying £10,000 handbags? She's lost the plot. So Harriet, tell me, by denying somebody the right to spend their hard-earned money as they choose, why does that make the poor better off? Hitting the rich will not improve the lives of the poor - it simply gets peoples backs up that deluded government ministers are attacking them for wanting to earn a good wage and wanting the freedom to spend it how they see fit. She seems to be on a one-woman mission to kill Blairism and everything that New Labour has built up in it's decade of success. It's not an unfair comment to say that she even outflanked Cruddas on leftieness, so much so that even Cruddas himself couldn't help but lavish praise on her. And of course, then we had the charade where she quickly tried to change her second-preference to Cruddas in order to scoop up more leftie votes, but she couldn't quite manage it because she still wants to make out she can win us votes in the middle-class South. Sorry Harriet, but you've failed there spectacularly. No self-respecting middle-class family would give their votes to a party that espoused your views.

At the start of this campaign, I originally considered giving my vote to Harman as she seemed pleasant, was generally loyal to Blair and was moderate enough to win us the middle England votes. She's destroyed all that and now she's going second-bottom after Cruddas. Congratulations Harriet Harman, you've managed to scare stiff about half the British population into thinking Labour is going back to the Michael Foot era - I'm sure that's really going to help come election time against Cameron's 'heirs to Blair'.


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Re: Why has Harriet Harman lost the plot? (#1)

On the politics of envy, from the Daily Mail: Fury over 'obscene' City bonuses
City bonuses feed the politics of envy

Inequality has been on the agenda for a while, it's simply that Labour politicians are scared that the right will scream politics of envy. But why not be envious? When people are spending what to most people is several years savings on something as silly as a handbag, when one persons yearly salary can buy another person's lifetime of labour, isn't it right to question the situation?

Re: Why has Harriet Harman lost the plot? (#2)

Not in my opinion. It's their hard-earned money - why should they feel bad about earning it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being rich and people like Harman need to stop making out that there is.

Re: Why has Harriet Harman lost the plot? (#3)

You imbecile. For the last time nobody is arguing that Labour should go back to how it was in the 80s. If you think that Harman arguing that the case has not been fully made for Trident and that the Iraq War was a mistake is in some way associated with Michael Foot then you are more ignorant than I thought.

It's about renewing the party and moving it forwards. You are the one trying to hold it back by desperately clinging on to Blairism. Blair's age is over, face facts.

Re: Why has Harriet Harman lost the plot? (#4)

Renewing the party? What, by banging on about what a sin it is to be rich? Declaring amnesty for illegal immigrants? Dithering over Trident, which the clear majority of the British people want to maintain?

otware you're a deluded fool and if we do lose the next general election, it's people like you who are to blame. If we ever move round to your way of thinking we may as well cease to exist since all we'll be good for is opposing David Cameron when he becomes PM.

Re: Why has Harriet Harman lost the plot? (#5)

I don't think New Labour needs any help loosing the next general election. I hardly think the left will take any blame for Labour loosing the next election, although it would be typical to try and pin the blame on us when it is actually the failure of New Labour that will loose it.

I agree that the amnesty for illegal immigrants is probably a bad idea. It just gives too much ammunition to the BNP, it's not popular and it's unworkable really.

What you call 'dithering over Trident' I call consulting the military, the public, the party and the international community over the future direction of nuclear weapons. We musn't forget our obligations under the NNPT.

Re: Why has Harriet Harman lost the plot? (#6)

The stance that Blair takes is the winning one - that's why Cameron's trying so hard to copy it. At this time, it makes no sense for us to retreat from the centre ground and surrender our right to be the natural party of government.

Re: Why has Harriet Harman lost the plot? (#8)

JR as we put up with so much of what you believe can you please except that not everyone (in fact a only a minority of people do) agree with all your beliefs. The whole point of last night was a DEBATE. I agreed with most of what Harriet and John had to say, and to be honest wasn't very impressed with Hazel. I don't however try and bury her under pathetic insults, we're all in one party can we just be constuctive. Please stop believing that Blairism is the ONLY way.

Re: Why has Harriet Harman lost the plot? (#12)

I'm in a minority on here because it's dominated by lefties sadly. I'm one of the few voices of reason in a world of lunacy!

There's nothing wrong with debate and Harman is entitled to her views, but I'm equally entitled to shout about how much I disagree with those views. So I'm contributing to the debate. The only reason why you think otherwise is because you don't agree with what I have to say.

Policies from the right of the party (whether it be Blair or Brown) are the only way to win elections, and I make no apologies for thinking that.

As for insults, if I had a penny for every time that insults had been thrown at Blair, Blairites or anybody remotely moderate in the party on here, I'd be a millionaire!

Re: Why has Harriet Harman lost the plot? (#16)

I don't think 'Blairites' can be regarded as moderate in any way. Blairism is without a doubt on the right of the party. Just as Bennism is on the definite left of the party. I'd say Labour 'moderates' are the likes of Cruddas and Trickett on the centre-left.

Re: Why has Harriet Harman lost the plot? (#28)

Thank you, otware that sums up the argument perfectly.

Re: Why has Harriet Harman lost the plot? (#30)

Blair is seen as a moderate by the coutry at large though,

Re: Why has Harriet Harman lost the plot? (#7)

JR - Have you ever visited the planet Earth?

Re: Why has Harriet Harman lost the plot? (#10)

I think that's slightly rich given your views.

Re: Why has Harriet Harman lost the plot? (#13)

Dunc, tell me more about your plans to take over all the media as part of 'collective responsibility'...

Re: Why has Harriet Harman lost the plot? (#14)

I have no such plans, JR. Collective ownership is not the same as collective responsibility. Collective ownership can refer to state ownership, yes (such as the BBC or Channel 4) but also co-operatives of various sorts (e.g. workers' and readers' co-operatives). There's nothing especially other-worldly about saying that I think it's desirable.

Re: Why has Harriet Harman lost the plot? (#17)

I don't think the news that the co-operative movement is allied to the Labour Party has reached JR yet. He's been stuck with his head in the sand for so long.

Re: Why has Harriet Harman lost the plot? (#9)

The majority of performances were a joke last night, I car'nt decide who was worse out of Harman or Blears. They were closely followed by Hain. The only people who came out with any sort of credit was Johnson and Benn in my view. I car'nt say it made me feel proud to be a Labour member last night. I would say the Tory and Lib Dem leadership elections provided more intellectual debate and far more interest to the wider public. This has been a joke so far.

Re: Why has Harriet Harman lost the plot? (#11)

That's how I feel too.

Re: Why has Harriet Harman lost the plot? (#19)

Well maybe that's because the Lib Dems and Tories were considered mature enough to choose their leader.Yes, we could have hadan interesting debate but we didn't get it.This is amediocre MupperShow.JR, it's you who has lost the plot. Maybe it really is time you considered your position .....

Re: Why has Harriet Harman lost the plot? (#20)

Neither the Lib Dems nor the Tories tried to promote the candidacy of anyone as off-the-wall as John McDonnell. If his supporters want to be treated as "mature enough to choose their own leader" then their remedy lies in either learning that politics is the art of the possible (support someone sensible) or in forming a socialist party for Mr McDonnell to lead.

Re: Why has Harriet Harman lost the plot? (#23)

Oh here we go: we should leave our party for you lot to enjoy, yes? Give me strength!

Re: Why has Harriet Harman lost the plot? (#24)

I'm not suggesting - and certainly not advocating - that anybody leave the Labour Party. But McDonnell supporters who seriously want their "own leader" are talking themselves into a corner. They ought to accept the world as it is and abandon politicians like McDonnell. If they can't do that then they have left with one alternative. I would strongly urge the former of those two options.

Re: Why has Harriet Harman lost the plot? (#25)

I think it's fair to say that McDonnell has emerged as the leader of Labour's left. He was the left leadership candidate, he is chair of the LRC and Campaign Group. I think that qualifies him as the leader of Labour's left.

There's nothing wrong with McDonnell being the main spokesman, so to speak, for a 'faction' of the party. My one hope is that McDonnell and the LRC/Campaign Group can grow to work with the likes of Compass, becasue they do have a lot of common aims.

Re: Why has Harriet Harman lost the plot? (#32)

We're in a similar position to the last 13 years (having a Party leader who we're likely to oppose on a lot of substantive issues, though we will still parade the doorsteps getting the vote out for Labour, of course), but with two big differences: a) Brown hasn't been elected and Blair was; b) the left is stronger than it has been for about 20 years and much more organised. It does mean that I think the Left will win a lot more of the fights that are imposed on us than we did under Blair, because Brown cannot - in the way Blair did - rely on his mandate (because he doesn't have one); and we will be working from a position of strength. We will all be fighting the Tories together of course - but I fear that your man Brown is going to force a lot of internal fights on us too, because he's going to continue ignoring party policy and attacking our movement. He will find it much harder to do so than Blair did, for the reasons I've outlined.

Re: Why has Harriet Harman lost the plot? (#33)

Apologies for coming back to this a bit late. I feel bound to say that I totally disagree with your asertion that the left of the party is stronger than it has been for 20 years (I personally consider one of Tony Blair's great achievements as leader is to have almost eradicated socialism from the Labour Party).

But the reason I really had to reply were the words "your man Brown". I haven't contributed much to this site so any misunderstandings are my own fault, but I was the only person in my CLP to speak against a supporting nomination for Brown. I think Brown's persistent disloyalty to the leader of the Labour party has damaged us and I am not optimistic about our future with him in charge.

Re: Why has Harriet Harman lost the plot? (#15)

JR, I think there may be some room between Footite Labour and Blairism, not that I would expect you to be able to see this. In countries where the gap between rich and poor is narrowing (however slowly) social mobility increases. This helps the poor. Where the gap between rich and poor widens social mobility decreases. Most people believe the very rich should pay more tax. The very rich and the middle class are not the same thing. To answer the question how is taxing the rich going to help the poor even more directly: Currently the poor pay a higher percentage of their income in tax than the rich so if the tax burden remained the same and was redistributed away from the poor then they would be better off.

Re: Why has Harriet Harman lost the plot? (#18)

At my last CLP my Blairite Mp stated the biggest threat to the party is a group of bullying people on the extreme of tha party. Foward with the left then!! There were only three lefties in the room. Prooves that you don't need too many people to start a revolution. Wiseman

Re: Why has Harriet Harman lost the plot? (#22)

Can I just point out that by the time he was leader, Michael Foot was quite right wing (in Labour terms).

Re: Why has Harriet Harman lost the plot? (#21)

I suggest everyone read Snowflake's excellent blog article on capping City pay here: http://snowflake5.blogspot.com/2007/05/deputy-leadership-debate.html

Re: Why has Harriet Harman lost the plot? (#26)

Absolutely agree that capping anyone's salary is a crazy idea. The whinge about footballers' weekly earnings is typical of this. They should get what they can whilst they can. However, it is perfectly reasonable to think that they should pay more tax on their income above 100k per week. I don't suppose that this would lead to a brains-in-feet drain to the continent either.

Re: Why has Harriet Harman lost the plot? (#27)

I don't have a problem with taxing the rich more, but I do have a problem with some peoples' motivation for doing it - not to do something constructive with the money, but just because they don't like people being rich.

Re: Why has Harriet Harman lost the plot? (#29)

Is taxing those who earn more than £100k pa not constuctive if it reduces inequality. If some can earn so much more than others then they end up leading different lives, their children get brought up in a different world and all of a sudden you have a totally divided society that has nothing in common with itself. Not only that but all these people with a spare million to spend just drive up prices for everyone. Surely a more progressive tax system is desireable.

Re: Why has Harriet Harman lost the plot? (#31)

Doing what's right is more important than winning elections. Who cares if certain policies lose us elections, as long as the policies are right? The majority of the public are in favour of reestablishing the death penalty, but abolishing it was the right thing to do.