Is Harman the new Cruddas?

Harman's performance on the Newsnight debate seems to have placed her to the left of Jon Cruddas.

I must say I was surprised with Harriet Harman's performance on the Newsnight debate. Not only did she kick the government in the nuts, but also outflanked Jon Cruddas on the left.


All this from someone who - up until now at least - has been fairly quiet on principles. "I'm pals with Gordon, I'm a woman and I'm from the South" seems to have been her manifesto for the deputy leadership up until now.

Perhaps she's lost confidence in her dodgy polling data, and is desperately trying to salvage her deputy leadership bid...

PS Saying all that, I did like the way she referred to campaign spending as an "arms race".



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Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#1)

I wouldn't say it placed her to the left of Cruddas. It certainly places her in similar waters, but I wouldn't go so far as to argue she's more left wing. If her surprisingly leftist views are genuine, then why has she been such a loyal member of the government? Cruddas has the policy and much more integrity - he's still the left candidate. I think it is a sign of things to come that even New Labourites are reverting back to their socialist roots though.

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#2)

By "sign of things to come", you mean "return to opposition" do you?

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#7)

No I mean "changing with the times". You're living in the past, get a grip on reality. Nobody wants to take the party backwards except people like you - tying it down to the Third Way ideology that is thankfuly on its way out!

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#9)

what do you mean by "changing with the times"

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#12)

The Labour Party should not be bullied into remaining true to some vision Blair had 13 years ago. The ideology and style of New Labour is no longer an assett.

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#15)

And taxing people until the 'pips squeak' and declaring an amnesty for illegal immigrants is I suppose? What a shambles.

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#24)

I don't agree with an amnesty for illegal immigrants and I don't agree that the government should tax the richest in society for the sake of dragging them down. The rich should, however, be taxed more because they can afford to give more than the working class in tax. If the government is to carry on investment in public services it needs money and it has to come from somewhere.

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#26)

What's your alternative to an amnesty on illegal immigrants, JR?

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#10)

Is it hell on the way out. If we elect Harman after the spineless backstabbing performance she gave last night this party is dead.

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#13)

Why? The party needs to break from Blairism. Harman represents to kind of views that are popular in Britain. Why is that a bad thing?

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#14)

New Labour was and is the sole reason why we're in power. The more Harman pathetically goes on about how dreadful its been serving under a PM like Blair (even though she was happy to support it at the time), the quicker we move to those opposition benches.

Do you seriously think Harman's views are in-tune with the public? Her views scared the public if anything. Floating voters must have been put of Labour for life listening to her cringe-worthy rhetoric.

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#17)

Well her views on Trident and the Iraq War are in tune with the public. Maybe to a rabid rightwinger such as yourself any centre-left policies sound like they're coming from the evil and wicked spectre of Militant but Harman's views were moderate and most definetly acceptable to the public.

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#19)

Really? Try reading around a few of the national newspapers and read what they have to say and then read some of the comments that people have left. Harman made us look like idiots. She basically rejected the very principles that have made us politically successful over the past 10 years. If you agree with that, shame on you.

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#21)

Shame on me? Shame on you for abandoning Labour principles! Redistribution of wealth is what it's all about for god's sake! You tax the rich more than the poor! Obvious...it's hardly a new concept and it only scares the public when people start jumping up and down and comparing it to soviet russia which is a ridiculous comparison to make.

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#25)

Finklestein has a good article on the difference between taxing the rich just to drag them down and taxing the rich to fund public spending.

http://timesonline.typepad.com/comment/2007/05/demonising_the_.html

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#27)

That's an interesting article. I would say I broadly agree with that, which is surprising seeing as it's in the Times.

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#28)

Finklestein always rights thoughtful stuff, even if you don't agree with him, he's always worth reading.

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#39)

I think the top band should be raised to 50%. I think that it is wrong that a CEO is paying 10% when the cleaner outside his office is paying 20%. I don't believe that the rich should be taxed, just because they should be taxed. But I think they need to be taxed highly, so that other people aren't taxed highly.

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#40)

Isn't the CEO only paying 10% because of tax avoidence/loopholes.

If so, what would raising the top threshold to 50% do? Wouldn't he/she just keeping avoiding?

And while we're on the subject, are you proposing a NEW 50% rate or raising the 40% one to 50%? If so, I don't think a 10% tax hike on everyone earning over 34,601 (the current threshold at which you start to pay at 40%) is a good idea.

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#41)

Quick and slightly pedantic note, the £34,601 is calculated on top of the £5,225 tax free allowance so it actually affects those earning over £39,825 rather than the lower figure you quoted. Most people, when talking about this kind of band I think most people are thinking of a new band on earnings over £100K. Not such a bad idea if you ask me, although I agree completely on your point about tax avoidance.

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#42)

i was thinking of the 100k band. how much do people earning £100,000 upwards have to pay?

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#34)

'sole reason'? Huh. Try disenfranchisement withh the Tories, splits on Europe, an economy in recession, a want for change? A donkey with a red rosette would have won in 1997, I think the donkey would have had at least some centre-left leanings.

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#3)

Harriet Harman was the last person I thought I would vote for.I may - just - change my mind after last night's Newsnight.She was visibly to the left of Cruddas and, whats more, she came across as sincere. Let's get this right. She's been around decades longer than Cruddas. Harman became an MP in 1983 and was a Tribunite.She was active in CND.The cut in child benefit did for her but she's never been a a loathsome Blairite like Blears or Johnson. Indeed, it's now clear she didn't have much time for Blair. I think she will now pick up votes from left-wingers who won't vote for Cruddas because of his faux leftieness and failure to nominate John McDonnell.Let's put it this way. Alice Mahon ( former Campaign Group MP) is voting for her as indeed is left MP Linda Riordan..I might join them.....

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#4)

Grim, is there any Blairite you haven't thought about voting for yet?!

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#5)

I don't WANT to vote for any of them really......but a spoilt ballot means I get to vote for no-one. Benn wil get my 2nd vote -I think Hain's now had it anyway.Not Johnson.Not Blears. And not Cruddas.Ultimately, it's not going to make much difference.

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#16)

Don't insult us Blairites by casting her as part of our group. She made her position crystal clear - she's turned into a full-blown leftie, even more so than Cruddas.

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#18)

Haha yeh Harman's a total communist. All this time she's been a member of Militant infiltrating the government.

Your grasp on reality is really fading JR. Haven't you thought that maybe she's changed her stance to fit the needs of the day? The rightwing Blair agenda is no longer an election winner and has been seized by Cameron's Tories. A repositionining is necessary. I know it doesn't make a good impression when politicians change their views like Harman seems to have, but that's another discussion alltogether.

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#20)

Harman changed her views because she knows she can't win on the moderate front since the competition is too fierce (with Johnson, Blears and possibly Benn). So she switched to the left because Cruddas is hardly credible.

The reason why Cameron has adopted a Blairite stance is precisely BECAUSE it is an election winner. Why can you not see that?

Nobody's saying Harman's a communist / militant, but what she had to say was certainly a shock to me and the general public at large.

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#36)

HH a "full blown leftie" I remain to be convinced. This is after all the former secretary of state for social security that cut benefit for lone parents while earning a 100K+ a year. Alan B'stard would be proud. Incidentally even HH that great defender of women's rights, especially when it comes to selecting positions in the Labour party in which she is interested, would have known that most lone parents on benefit are women. I bet the're thankful for the sisterly solidarity she showed them She must think that the Labour electorate are all morons who will believe a few leftie remarks a couple of weeks before an election rather than judging her on her track record.

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#37)

How is the fact she was earning 100K relevant, last time I checked ministers don't decide their own pay. As for the cut in child benefit, there is the question as to whether this was a factor entirley within her control. The best Idiots4Labour could manage on this subject was: It may be said that she argued against it privately and in Cabinet: this may even be true. If she did argue privately against it, she was not successful and is a well-meaning but crap politician; An argument that in my opinion doesn't really convince since it's based on the idea that a "good" politician is the kind who always wins their battles, something that is not always possible.

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#6)

I think all any of this tells us is that it would have been a great thing to have a leadership contest. Then we could have had an actual debate between someone who wanted to stick with New Labour policies (with a few tweaks here and there) and somebody with a radical left agenda. Instead, we've got 6 people who - with the honorable exceptions of Blears and Benn - will chase the polls and look for 'gaps in the market'. It's quite funny really that 318 MPs apparently backed sticking to the New Labour approach (people could have chosen to nominate neither candidate, before I get the predictable responses to that suggestion) yet half of the candidates in the deputy contest seek to ape the left! Could I be any less enthusiastic?

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#8)

I'm not enthusiastic at all.Just reluctant to spoil my ballot having been denied a vote in the leadership contest.Oh dear,just got depressed again.....

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#11)

To me, Harriet is the only one who has thought through what the job of Deputy might be about. Jon Crudass is amiable enough but not in with a chance - just doing his best to fly the flag for the 'left'. Alan Johnson ('generic politician' as my son named him) looking for promotion. Hazel I like but she is still in Party Chair mode and who knows where that is going. Harriet has also put her money where her mouth is on campaigning. The boys may be making the right noises but which of them has 700 members in their CLP? And she does her bit - many CLPs know her because she goes out on the streets campaigning with them.

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#22)

I think Cruddas is going to win.

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#23)

Harriet Harman was the only Deputy Leadership candidate who could be bothered to come up to Halifax and boost our campaign against the BNP. None of the others has bothered.....I will never be her biggest fan but,given the appalling opposition (Benn was awful on Iraq)I will now probably vote for her (with no illusions)

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#29)

So, Grim, so far you've backed Benn then Hain and now Harman and all in the space of a couple of weeks. Only another two candidates to go before you get back round to seeing the light and voting for Cruddas whom, I note, has just won the Newsnight Poll by a mile!

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#30)

I'm betting she voted Blears in the end :)

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#32)

Ha, not on your life.....The reason am confused is don't want to vote for any of them, really.

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#31)

Jon Cruddas has moved into 3rd favourite to be Deputy Leader with Betfair at 6/1 behind Benn and Johnson. Harman is next at 9/1, Blears on 12.5/1 and Peter Hain at 18.5/1. Cruddas stacking up a good sum of CLP nominations - 31 now behind Benn on 40 and ahead of the 4 others. It's still Benn's to lose, but the momentum is with Jon Cruddas at the moment and he has a bit of a chance of an upset. If Hain drops out first, I think many of his STV transfers will go to Cruddas which could really open things up. I'd be interested in how many of Harriet's actually go to Hazel too.

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#33)

I think the soft left vote may well be split between Harman and Cruddas. I reckon Blears is going to go out before Harman. Question is, out of the Blears and Hain voters how many put Cruddas 2nd and how many put Harman 2nd? That could play a very important roll.

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#35)

After reading this, I do indeed feel Harman is going to win. If she can convince grim and otware that despite her vote for Iraq, despite sending her child across town to a selective school, despite her scrapping one parent benefit and means testing invalidity, despite all this, they are prepared to believe a conversion on the basis of one tv show, she's going to win. I can never get over how nice we are in the labour party and how despite all the facts pointing otherwise we're always prepared to give the benefit of doubt, and we always end up being betrayed.
Well Hariet has pledged she'll be publicly loyal and privately honest. That's one hell of a get out of jail card. There's no doubt in my mind that she's played this election the best, she's gone for distance from everything she's voted for; I just don't believe her. She wasn't there when it mattered and she could have made a difference. And history tells us she never is.

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#38)

I prefer candidates such as Blears and Benn. I may not agree with what they're saying but they are honest in their opinions. The same cannot be said for Hain or Harman. And this comes from a Cruddas supporting soft Leftie.

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#43)

Oh dear. Poor old Harriet. Her MPs are chuntering as we speak after the shocker on Question Time - by clearly advocating a UN res against the USA she has blown the special relationship she had with Gordon.

Re: Is Harman the new Cruddas? (#44)

Did anyone see this story? http://www.labourhome.org/story/2007/6/15/65325/1987