Cruddas MP switches to Hain

grimupnorth Mon May 28, 2007 at 02:33:23 PM GMT Print-friendly version Facebook

Paul Flynn, who signed  Jon Cruddas's nomination papers,  is  now voting for Hain. Flynn was one of the 29MPs who nominated John McDonnell so it's  probably no coincidence.



Flynn says Cruddas isn't performing well at the hustings and that Hain is a "consummate politician" who has done great stuff in Northern Ireland. I would go along with that.
  Hain also said he would not "wriggle out" of responsibility  for what's happened in Iraq. A position I have more respect for, frankly, than those  leadership candidates and deputy leadership candiates who have "apologised" for making a mistake and think that  makes it OK.
Finally, those on the left who still think Cruddas is the Great White Hope should read this recent quote from  the Western Mail.
"I was in the Labour Party in the 1980s, and one half of the constituency party wanted to nationalise the corner shop while the other wanted to invite the Russians in. I don’t want to go back to that."
JR, this is the man for you!!!!

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Cruddas MP switches to Hain | 37 comments (37 topical)

Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#1)

by CitizenAndreas on Mon May 28, 2007 at 02:59:07 PM GMT

Cruddas isn't performing well at the hustings? I can only really judge from what I've read on blogs and what I've seen on youtube, but from what I've seen Cruddas certainly seems to have carried himself pretty well. If anything, Hain seemed rather lacklustre. I suspect this has more to do with Cruddas' nomination of Brown than with Jon's actual performance at the hustings.


Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#2)

by grimupnorth on Mon May 28, 2007 at 03:06:12 PM GMT

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that - for many of us who were looking forward to hustings for the leadership and had worked long and hard to that end the whole DL thing is a non-event for a non-job. I suspect Paul Flynn is also angry at Cruddas's nomination of Brown.IMHO it completely discredited his campaign.


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Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#17)

by Sensible Comrade on Mon May 28, 2007 at 06:40:02 PM GMT

Well then that just reflects badly on Paul Flynn who I'd always considered to be a sound fella even if a tad eccentric. It is just plain daft to be so angry at Cruddas for nominating Brown that you then jump into bed with a candidate who has been Brown-nosing for months, if not years! Surely there must be another more sensible reason?


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Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#3)

by otware on Mon May 28, 2007 at 03:24:21 PM GMT

I am 100% certain that that is the reason he has switched from Cruddas to Hain. It's just out of spite. The backlash from this McDonnell nominations fiasco will almost certainly hurt Cruddas more than had he just nominated McDonnell in the first place.


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Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#4)

by lastword on Mon May 28, 2007 at 03:33:14 PM GMT

And this will help Hain how exactly? No one's interested in him apart from 2nd, 3rd, or 4th preferences. Paul Flyn, my friends, is not going to alter that fact and it is a fact.


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Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#14)

by otware on Mon May 28, 2007 at 05:39:41 PM GMT

Yeh I guess there's not much Paul Flynn can really do except vote for Hain instead of Cruddas. Cruddas' main support base is in the unions and CLPs anyway, not the PLP.


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Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#35)

by fluffymike on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:46:08 PM GMT

But given the system of election, 2nd and 3rd choices are virtually as important as first choices from what I can see...


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Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#5)

by grimupnorth on Mon May 28, 2007 at 03:37:05 PM GMT

No it's not spite.It's justifiable anger. Cruddas bangs on about democracy then helps to take it away from grassroots members. He courts support from McDonnellites then shafts them. What do you expect??? He also sends his child to a posh school rather than the local constituency comprehensive and has two homes in London despite the fact he is, er, a London MP. In other words, the usual hypocrisy we have come to expect from New Labour.


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Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#18)

by Sensible Comrade on Mon May 28, 2007 at 06:41:23 PM GMT

I don't buy that, as I think Cruddas also has supporters who would be very turned off by nominating McDonnell.


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Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#23)

by doctordunc on Mon May 28, 2007 at 09:17:45 PM GMT

I suspect that's only with hindsight, where now it seems that nominating and voting are the same thing (because nobody got to vote for the leadership). In fact, people might have nominated for all sorts of reasons (e.g. because they wanted to ensure that party and union members got to have their say) without it in any way being interpreted as enthusiastic support. I assume that lots of people who nominated Brown are not Brown fans (unless John Reid has been possessed).


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Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#6)

by repub on Mon May 28, 2007 at 03:53:59 PM GMT

"Hain also said he would not "wriggle out" of responsibility for what's happened in Iraq. A position I have more respect for, frankly, than those leadership candidates and deputy leadership candiates who have "apologised" for making a mistake and think that makes it OK." I don't believe this, sheer anti-Cruddas spite. It's not possible to argue any candidates are wriggling out of responsibility. No-one is denying they voted for the war. But Cruddas and Harman are recognising the tragedy that it is and the damage it has done to the Labour Party. If they were unrepentant you'd attack them. When they're sorry you attack them. You're so self-righteous.


Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#7)

by lastword on Mon May 28, 2007 at 04:01:46 PM GMT

Amen to that. As I understand it, Jon Cruddas sends his kid to a comprehensive and, yes, it happens to be a very good comprehensive in the area of London the kid grew up in and had friends in before Cruddas became an MP. What excatly is the problem, Comrade?


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Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#10)

by grimupnorth on Mon May 28, 2007 at 04:43:55 PM GMT

Well before Compass adopted Cruddas,Hain was raising issues about Party democracy and published a Catalyst paper on it in 2004. He also attended a meeting I helped organised then at Portcullis House for Save The Labour Party - despite being urged not to by the Cabinet toadies. Hain's track-record as a radical anti-apartheid campaigner also deserves respect. I may be on the hard left but that doesn't blind me to political qualities in those with whom I have serious disagreements. I was always suspicious of the Cruddas candidacy simply because of his background as a Blairite and key player in "The Project." But I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.That was the position of many on the hard left and will continue to be for some.But not for me.


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Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#9)

by grimupnorth on Mon May 28, 2007 at 04:29:45 PM GMT

My major difficulty with Cruddas is his espousal of left causes and the disparity between what he says and what he does.If he does become Deputy leader,I'll be interested to see how that pans out.


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Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#11)

by petercoe on Mon May 28, 2007 at 04:46:39 PM GMT

I think that's a fair point - Cruddas is certainly attempting to present himself as more left-wing than he is, but then all of the Deputy Leadership contenders with the exception of Hazel Blears are trying to do that, and all are making idiots of themselves in the process.

But I have to say, Grim, that Hain is by far the worst example of this fake, posturing leftism of them all: and I'm amazed you're getting suckered by it.

This is a man who has no political principle: he'll attack his own government and then the next day try to claim piously that he stands by cabinet collective responsibility. A man who was a leading young liberal who now claims to be the voice of the left.

I don't envy you the choice you have before you Grim - none of the DL candidates comes close to espousing the sorts of policies you'd like to see the government implementing; but the choice is surely between those candidates who are honest about their political outlook, and those who will pander to any cause however shamelessly and dishonestly.

I'd like to think I'd vote for a genuine leftie over a fake moderate (or abstain) if that was the only choice before me - is the reverse true for you?


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Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#12)

by grimupnorth on Mon May 28, 2007 at 05:12:18 PM GMT

As you correctly point out Peter, like thousands of others in the Party who have been let down by the PLP I don't really have a choice.Or a candidate. I can imagine that Cruddas supporters might not be quite so smug or sanguine if they were in this position. Are you saying I should vote for a genuine Blairite rather than faux leftie? Well,that's Blears. And just not an option.Though at least she uses the "s-word" in her literature.And, on her terms, I think she is genuine. But I can't abide her politics.Hain or Benn is the least worst option.But I have no illusions in either. Hain's work in Northern Ireland will probably do it for me.But, ultimately, Brown will ride roughshod over whoever is deputy Leader. For us on the left, the campaigning on real issues will start once Brown's Albanian-style hustings are over and he's in Number 10 ( with Straw as Deputy Prime MInister) .


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Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#13)

by petercoe on Mon May 28, 2007 at 05:22:08 PM GMT

I wouldn't presume to advise you on the predicament you're in Grim - seriously, it's the devil and the deep blue sea for you.

That said, I personally have a lot more time for lefties who stand clearly, openly and honestly for what they believe than those who pretend to be something they're not.

During the Tooting selection a few years ago, there were candidates covering the spectrum of political outlooks in the party. I agree with her on virtually nothing, but I respect Pam Tatlow, who quite directly and unashamedly stood as the candidate of the left far more than both Sadiq Khan and Hywel Lloyd

Both until that point had been as new Labour as you can get but all of a sudden they decided there were votes in tacking to the left and started articulating positions that either contradicted previously held stances, or became vocal on things they'd never voiced an opinion on.

Of course, Hain's in a different league - he's never cared too much about contradicting even his recently expressed positions: I just see no political integrity in the man.

On that basis, heck, let me say that if I were you I'd vote for Cruddas: get over the leadership debacle - there are far more guilty parties in that mess than Cruddas, and I actually see some integrity within him; plus he's far more likely to deliver party reform (which I guess we can both agree on) than Hain who had little interest in (or record on) party democracy until this contest.


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Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#16)

by grimupnorth on Mon May 28, 2007 at 05:53:29 PM GMT

Not true. As I say in above post, he wrote a decent paper on it in 2004 - backed by Catalyst, which preceded Compass


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Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#19)

by Sensible Comrade on Mon May 28, 2007 at 06:44:42 PM GMT

Can you provide a link to it? I think I had a look at it before and it was a bit uninspiring. Simple fact is whatever he's written in the past he's not talking about now. His whole campaign seems to be based on him personally liberating Nelson Mandela!!


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Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#8)

by doctordunc on Mon May 28, 2007 at 04:21:53 PM GMT

I wonder how big a Cruddas supporter Paul ever was? I've nothing to base the question on other than curiosity. Obviously some nominations (of both leadership and deputy leadership candidates) had some bearing on the other contest, so to speak. And so some may have nominated a particular way without necessarily being inclined that way. I think Paul Flynn had come out for Peter Hain earlier in the contest (though I may have misremembered that).


Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#15)

by otware on Mon May 28, 2007 at 05:46:19 PM GMT

A bit off topic, but what do you people predict the result will be? Benn and Johnson seem to have been touted as the most likely winners, but to me Johnson appears to have fallen back quite a way.


Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#20)

by Sensible Comrade on Mon May 28, 2007 at 06:47:57 PM GMT

Grim, a more sophisticated and honest analysis would include reference to the Morning Star and Tribune urging its readers to support Cruddas. It's clear the left is divided over this one (as ever).


Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#21)

by hbrompton on Mon May 28, 2007 at 06:49:53 PM GMT

Am still undecided - they are all good candidates - but speaking as someone who was at Sheffield yesterday I noted the following. 1) Hain was crapping it and struggled to get the right words out, clearly nervous. He talked about N Ireland but we all know it was Blair that sorted that out. Also spoke about his ANL days but never once mentioned the fact he sold them out and shafted them... 2) Hazel was good but not too coherent. 3) Harman lied out of her arse about Iraq and we had the awful situation of both ladies wearing the same M&S blouse - will they ever live it down??? 4) Benn said a lot about nothing much and is too posh for my liking. 5) Cruddas didn't really 'turn up' and failed to push any buttons. 6) Johnson was perhaps too defensive of government record but his answers on NHS and union involvement impressed. He just about edged it over Harman on the clap-ometer. Harman was good but I can't help but feeling she'd be a nodding dog to Gordon.For me, that being the case, it's Johnson. In truth..


Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#22)

by grimupnorth on Mon May 28, 2007 at 07:46:48 PM GMT

Sounds like they are all much of a muchness.Which they are....


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Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#24)

by JR on Mon May 28, 2007 at 10:36:22 PM GMT

Well Cruddas is reasonably sensible and moderate and he knows what the limits are - so I'll give him credit for that. But he's certainly not 'my man'.

Saying that, I detest Hain so I'm not sure who's bottom of my list at the moment.

I'm going to put Johnson first I think. I like what he's had to say and I kind of like the idea that a postman who left school at 15 can rise to the ranks of DPM. It's a good sign for meritocracy. He's a Blair supporter but he can adapt to work well with Brown as well - so he looks like a good choice. I'd be surprised if he doesn't win it.


Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#25)

by lastword on Mon May 28, 2007 at 11:36:38 PM GMT

Cruddas is gonna win, JR :-)


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Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#26)

by Glass House on Tue May 29, 2007 at 08:53:18 AM GMT

I doubt it. My money's on Benn to win, although I'll probably put Johnson first.


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Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#27)

by lastword on Tue May 29, 2007 at 11:29:30 AM GMT

You'll see...


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Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#28)

by CitizenAndreas on Tue May 29, 2007 at 11:51:49 AM GMT

I think I agree on the Benn thing, he's looked good in the hustings videos I've seen so far. Personally, I'm currently favouring Harriet Harman.


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Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#29)

by Sensible Comrade on Tue May 29, 2007 at 01:23:23 PM GMT

Grammar schools for all!


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Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#30)

by lastword on Tue May 29, 2007 at 01:53:00 PM GMT

Read this from today's FT http://www.ft.com/cms/s/370b30ea-0d80-11dc-937a-000b5df10621.html Only Jon Cruddas is saying anything remotely interesting. When the FT starts writing articles like this Cruddas supporters know they're onto a winner.


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Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#31)

by grimupnorth on Tue May 29, 2007 at 02:13:28 PM GMT

THe FT is probably desperate for a story as this is such a tedious, drawn-out process. Of course it's interesting stuff.No-one disputes that do they?


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Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#32)

by lastword on Tue May 29, 2007 at 02:30:52 PM GMT

They didn't need to praise Cruddas, Grim, but they have....:-)


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Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#33)

by CitizenAndreas on Tue May 29, 2007 at 02:38:02 PM GMT

This, has I believe been debated to death on another thread, needless to say that I didn't see anything wrong with she did or see anything wrong or hypocritical about her views on the subject. I shall add that Harriet is also a lady.


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Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#34)

by Sensible Comrade on Tue May 29, 2007 at 02:49:48 PM GMT

As she has herself pointed out many many times!


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Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#36)

by reallabour on Tue May 29, 2007 at 04:44:39 PM GMT

Some years ago Paul Flynn wrote an excellent book, Dragons Led By Poodles. It detailed the way Peter Hain, under instuctions from Downing Street, led the stitch up of Rhodri Morgan and foisted Alun Michael (remember him?) on Wales as Leader of the Welsh Assembly. Great pity to see Paul voting for a poodle.


Re: Cruddas MP switches to Hain (#37)

by grimupnorth on Tue May 29, 2007 at 05:27:24 PM GMT

Take your point but not so much of a pity as it was to see Cruddas voting for Brown.


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Cruddas MP switches to Hain | 37 comments (37 topical)