To Gordon Brown and the next Labour deputy leader

Lorin Sun May 27, 2007 at 05:13:46 PM GMT Print-friendly version Facebook

This is the way we will win the next general elections.




We must have a cabinet that reflects all of the Labour party, not just a particular group within the party.
This means Left wingers, centerists and right wingers sitting together.
We must renationalise the railways, this was a policy decided in the 2004 party conference, and is the will of the majority of the public.
We must stop the privatisation of the NHS.
Focus on education.
Allow debate in the party.
Return Trade-Union rights.
Bulid more council houses.
And listen to the party itself.

If we do all this and more, we will surely win the next election.

Yours sincerely 





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To Gordon Brown and the next Labour deputy leader | 115 comments (115 topical)

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#1)

by JR on Sun May 27, 2007 at 06:51:31 PM GMT

Dear Gordon Brown and deputy leader (probably Johnson),

If you wish to commit electoral suicide then please follow the agenda as outlined above.

If however, you wish to win the next General election against some tough opposition then stick to the centre ground with all your might. If you're even thinking about renationalising anything, then you're in the wrong job. Don't raise taxes, don't backturn of the major trade union reforms of the 1980's and don't appoint anybody remotely like John McDonnell to any Cabinet positions (and probably not ministerial positions either). Act like Blair and reform like Blair but with less spin, more accountability and less sucking up to Bush with regards to Iraq and then maybe, just maybe, you might stand a chance of winning. Best of luck.


Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#2)

by Lorin on Sun May 27, 2007 at 06:59:41 PM GMT

Again, following party policy is what matters, there was a decision in the conference in 2004 to renationalise the railways, just like we did on the minimum wage and extra child support. Unlike you I think all the party should be represented in the cabiner (seems your mate reid didn't even have the guts to sit with Gordon in the cabinet. Do you want to privatise the NHS?


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#3)

by JR on Sun May 27, 2007 at 07:05:43 PM GMT

I don't agree that a Prime Minister should be forced into following party conference orders even though it goes against what is best for the country and the party's electoral success. It should be for the democratically elected government to decide policy of the day.

Reid acted in a very noble way by standing down so as not to cause friction with Brown and by allowing him to free up the Cabinet to bring new faces in.

No, I don't agree with privatising the NHS but I don't mind little fringe sections of it being privatised as has been done in the past, although I doubt there are many left to be privatised. I firmly believe that the main parts of the NHS should stay in state control.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#4)

by Lorin on Sun May 27, 2007 at 07:14:40 PM GMT

But you must realise that its the party that should determine policy, not the party leader. And most of the public want the railways renationalised, take a GNER train from London to York (If you have the cash) and see what I mean. Good you agree on not privatising the NHS. Reid should step down now. A question to you: Do you want someone in the cabinet that reflects your opinion? I presume so, in that case, the left needs someone to reflect their opinions.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#14)

by JR on Mon May 28, 2007 at 02:17:49 AM GMT

I want a Cabinet that is best for Britain and best for the Labour party - and that's one with no lefties in it I'm afraid.

I disagree with your first point - it's comparable to saying the government should call a referendum on every single issue to ensure the public are constantly onside. That's not how democracy works.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#23)

by Lorin on Mon May 28, 2007 at 11:51:58 AM GMT

You fail to understand that its THE PARTY, that sets PARTY policy. Not the head of the party. It's party politics ABC. The party sets an agenda for the party.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#25)

by JR on Mon May 28, 2007 at 12:47:23 PM GMT

So you think that every single, specific policy should be decided by the 'party' (which is not the same think as the Conference btw) and not the government headed by the party leader?


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#40)

by Glass House on Mon May 28, 2007 at 04:01:39 PM GMT

Repeating it doesn't make it true.

Your wanting it doesn't make it true.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#6)

by otware on Sun May 27, 2007 at 07:31:37 PM GMT

So basically what you're saying is that the position of Labour Leader should have nothing to do with being at the top of the Labour Movement, but simply a position from which to propel one's self into government? You obviously just want the Labour Party to be a personal election machine for the unelected soon-to-be leader of the Labour Party.

If you seriously believe that it is for the government to decide policy (as opposed to the party) then what is the point of party politics at all?


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#15)

by JR on Mon May 28, 2007 at 02:19:58 AM GMT

Leaders should broadly follow the aims and principles of a party, but not every specific detail every minute of every day. A Prime Minister has to have flexibility and since he's the elected head of government and nobody has elected the people who vote at party conference, he has more of a mandate to make policy.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#30)

by otware on Mon May 28, 2007 at 01:07:24 PM GMT

But under our electoral system the PM is not the elected head o government. He is just another constituency MP who happens to be the leader of a party with an unfiarly inflated majority.

There is a big difference between converting party policy into government policy and totally ignoring party policy in the formation of government policy. Would you say that the government has taken any notice of official party policy on the issues of rail nationalisation, privatisation in the NHS etc? I wouldn't.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#33)

by JR on Mon May 28, 2007 at 01:32:22 PM GMT

The party hasn't been given a vote - only the Conference which is not the same thing.

I agree with FPTP in the Commons - I wouldn't say it's unfair - but there does need to be an elected upper house to counter-balance it.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#7)

by Sensible Comrade on Sun May 27, 2007 at 07:36:17 PM GMT

Dear JR Wasn't the renationalisation of the railways in Labour's 1997 manifesto? And wasn't that one of our greatest election victories ever? Also: would you have been against the establishment of the National Health Service? You seem to be so anti-leftie that I think you would have been. Comradely Sensible Comrade


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#16)

by JR on Mon May 28, 2007 at 02:21:25 AM GMT

Re: Railways, yes it was, but it isn't now.

No, I would have supported the creation of the NHS and still do.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#19)

by Sensible Comrade on Mon May 28, 2007 at 06:40:38 AM GMT

Well then, I don't see how you can reconcile this fact with your comment "If you're even thinking about renationalising anything, then you're in the wrong job". Perhaps it is you who is dogmatic, in that you don't seem to understand that in certain cases public ownership could be feasible and popular and therefore should be government policy?


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#26)

by JR on Mon May 28, 2007 at 12:48:24 PM GMT

In the long term, nationalising the railways is a bad idea and it won't happen.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#41)

by Lorin on Mon May 28, 2007 at 05:40:56 PM GMT

Why? The costs will be cheaper, staff morale will go up. Money will be used to improve rail efficiancy, and will not go into some fat-cat's wallet.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#51)

by JR on Mon May 28, 2007 at 09:09:28 PM GMT

Costs cheaper? No, the heavy burden when things go wrong will be paid entirely by the state - where as if it happens now, business gets the bill.

Staff morale? I think staff care more about their wages and the standard of service - they couldn't care less whether this is provided by the state or a company.

I'm sorry, but you need to understand it is not the job of the state to hold monopolies on all services and the state does not exist to simply pay out vast amounts on workers who don't need to be there. A business is more ruthless and will get rid of workers when they're not needed - the state, for political reasons cannot do the same. That's why you have to implement market discipline in public services to the make them work effectively. You and I will never agree on this I'm afraid.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#62)

by jonesythered on Mon May 28, 2007 at 09:52:48 PM GMT

That places you to the right of about three quarters of the British public. Exactly why don't you think that the railways should be brought back into state control?


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#8)

by Wiseman on Sun May 27, 2007 at 07:48:28 PM GMT

Dear AWB This is a very sensible approach. JR is just upset because he has lost his I love Tony badge and because of this his brainwashing has made him think who should I support!! and he come up with I did want an election but not Gordon or John Mcdonnell campaign, which failed and his hero John Reid will sit on the back benches crying Don't cry for me home office!! Somes it up we must all be moderates or lefties in the party so realistic debate can take place. Wiseman


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#9)

by Lorin on Sun May 27, 2007 at 07:52:37 PM GMT

LOL I agree. I think Miliband, David Lammy and for the left someone like Glenda Jackson or Mark Fisher should all sit in the cabinet together, that way all the party is represented.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#10)

by otware on Sun May 27, 2007 at 08:50:27 PM GMT

I'd like to see Jon Trickett and Jon Cruddas in there. They have a definite leftist slant, and have the luck not to have been dragged through the shit by the media like more outspoken leftists such as McDonnell.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#21)

by grimupnorth on Mon May 28, 2007 at 10:25:48 AM GMT

Yesterday's Mail On Sunday did a hatchet job on Cruddas for having two homes and sending his daughter to a posh Catholic school.And when they've done that, they will pick on the next one .......I seriously believe Brown's fingers are on this one as they were on the John Reid shock horror drunken man propositions woman story. All I can say is, one day it will backfire utterly. And it's disgraceful. But the right-wing media will always revel in it.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#34)

by lastword on Mon May 28, 2007 at 01:35:49 PM GMT

Jon Cruddas doesn't have a daughter, Grim.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#38)

by grimupnorth on Mon May 28, 2007 at 01:48:18 PM GMT

Apologies -the story referred to his "child" but presumably the rest is true.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#11)

by swatantra on Sun May 27, 2007 at 10:18:24 PM GMT

A Ministry of all Talents, yes but a Ministry of Special Interest Groups, no; they'll never agree on anything. Otherwise, the programme is acceptable, apart from the 'liberalisation' of the Union laws. The country simply won't accept it. It touches a raw nerve; its what empowered Thatcher in the 80's and kept her in power.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#17)

by JR on Mon May 28, 2007 at 02:23:25 AM GMT

Grow up wiseman.

You put lefties in the Cabinet and they will resign after two seconds because they can't stomach the policies that will be pushed forward, so what's the point?


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#22)

by Lorin on Mon May 28, 2007 at 11:47:28 AM GMT

Yet John Reid resigned...


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#27)

by JR on Mon May 28, 2007 at 12:50:29 PM GMT

???

After serving about ten different government jobs. He's retiring, not resigning from the Cabinet to vote against any policies.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#31)

by otware on Mon May 28, 2007 at 01:10:40 PM GMT

Well that's debateable. It's more than likely that he can't stand Brown and fears being demoted or kicked out by him anyway.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#12)

by lastword on Sun May 27, 2007 at 11:17:05 PM GMT

JR, your reaction was far too knee jerk. It's as if you wanted to dismiss AWB's proposals before you'd even read them. I fail to see how anyone could be against a "focus on education" nor on building more council houses. Even Hazel Blars has started saying it for Gord's sake! Similarly, how is allowing "debate in the party" a recipe for electoral suicide? And I for one would like a train service that actually works and renationalisation seems the only way that's ever going to happen. Well done, AWB. A sensible and well thought out list ad I say that as someone who does not consider themselve on the "hard left" in the slightest.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#13)

by Loz on Sun May 27, 2007 at 11:26:52 PM GMT

Or by putting the hundreds of stagnant carriages into services and reopening lines closed years ago.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#18)

by JR on Mon May 28, 2007 at 02:25:30 AM GMT

I wasn't criticising every single point - but broadly, it was pretty bad.

Focus on education and greater debate are fine with me. I support more social housing, but not really council housing.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#20)

by Sensible Comrade on Mon May 28, 2007 at 06:42:58 AM GMT

What's the difference between social and council housing JR?


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#28)

by JR on Mon May 28, 2007 at 12:51:12 PM GMT

Social housing does not have to be owned by the council, but it is not private either.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#24)

by Lorin on Mon May 28, 2007 at 12:21:54 PM GMT

lastword: Renationalisation is the best way to assure a proper and efficiant rail service. Prices will go down, staff morale up, rail safty will go up. Under BR it was something like 20 quid or less to get to York from London, now it's 50. We should have a consensus from all sides of the party including the right(exept JR who is opposed to anything said by a left winger).


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#29)

by JR on Mon May 28, 2007 at 12:56:50 PM GMT

Renationalisation leads to lower competition, inefficiency and a waste of taxpayers money.

Don't pretend that nationalisation is in someway economically positive - if that's the case then why has so much been privatised in the last twenty years and not reversed?

Anybody with an ounce of sense on the right of the party would not support nationalisation of the railways. This 'consensus' does not work by the left simply listing its demands and trying to con the right into backing them. If it's not good for the country, it shouldn't be done.

By the way, you go on about me - you (and lefties in general) oppose practically everything put forward by Blair and Blairites and no doubt by Brown now as well. So you can talk when it comes to consensus building.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#32)

by otware on Mon May 28, 2007 at 01:15:55 PM GMT

JR - why the hell do we need competition in the bloody railways? It's totally unnatural! It's not like passengers choose which rail company they want to use on the day! They are lumped with whichever one covers their region.

I'll tell you what's an inefficient waste of tax payers money - giving oney to private companies to run our railways when their main concern is to deliver profits to their shareholders.

I don't understand how you can be associated with the Labour Party and support such Thatcherite policies. Sorry, but you've really touched nerve here.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#36)

by JR on Mon May 28, 2007 at 01:39:05 PM GMT

Keeping the railways private is a LABOUR policy - it has been for the past 10 years we've been in government - get with the times.

Actually, it is 'natural' - the railways are a 'natural monopoly' to give it the technical term. Competition doesn't have to be 'which company to go with on the day'. Competition for the railways involves choosing which companies win the contract - those who offer the best deal and will invest the most win the contract and if they do badly, they can be replaced at the next round of deals. This cannot be done if the state was in charge. The companies will only make profit when they're running a decent service which is popular - so it's in the company's best interest to run a good service so they can make a profit. It's applying market principles to a public service - nothing wrong with that.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#37)

by lastword on Mon May 28, 2007 at 01:41:20 PM GMT

I don't want "market principles" on my train journey, JR. I would just like a realible and cheap journey. We are getting none of that at the moment.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#53)

by JR on Mon May 28, 2007 at 09:11:31 PM GMT

It doesn't matter whether you want market principles - but that's what is needed and that's what the trains will get. But it will take time and a great deal of funding from the state (which is perhaps too little at the moment).


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#54)

by Lorin on Mon May 28, 2007 at 09:15:56 PM GMT

But why shouldn't the state run the railways without the private companies concerned with their profits? Private companies get enough state money.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#56)

by JR on Mon May 28, 2007 at 09:18:38 PM GMT

Stop saying state money goes to the companies - it doesn't, it gets spent on upgrading railway infrastructure.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#57)

by Lorin on Mon May 28, 2007 at 09:22:39 PM GMT

It does, It's called rail subsidy.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#59)

by JR on Mon May 28, 2007 at 09:26:12 PM GMT

But that does what it says on the tin - it subsidises railway journies below market price! So how can you complain - you're not even paying market prices on the trains anyway. But your also getting an efficient, cost-effective service thanks to the market discipline.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#60)

by Lorin on Mon May 28, 2007 at 09:30:16 PM GMT

Yes they lower the price from 27 pounds to 20, big thanks. They still make a profit of OUR railways.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#66)

by JR on Mon May 28, 2007 at 10:45:14 PM GMT

Of course and there's nothing wrong with that.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#72)

by Lorin on Tue May 29, 2007 at 07:37:09 AM GMT

Well you see, I'm thinking if the government invests the money it does into a publicly owned railway, with no greedy shareholders, that would automatically mean, lower prices............ See, no shareholders recieving profits, more money going in to the railways and lower prices. JR: How about we privatise the pavements, see no problem in someone making money from that, do you?


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#73)

by JR on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:04:46 PM GMT

I can't help thinking you have serious problems with the free market in all aspects of life, not just the railways.

Your comments are beginning to border on communist thinking whereby all shareholders are 'greedy' and everything is all a big capitalist conspiracy. No, public ownership does not ever mean automatically lower prices - I suggest you brush up on economic theory to understand why.

There is nothing wrong, but indeed a great deal of good that comes from the free market in the majority of cases. The free market dominates this country and indeed, most of the world and it's growing stronger all the time - so I'm afraid if you have gripes over it, then there's not much that can or will be done about it!


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#77)

by Lorin on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:16:45 PM GMT

Its not a communist thinking, most western nations have a public owned railways. And based on South East Trains, that was a public railway franchise, prices went down. And there are serious problems with the railways (take any train and see what I mean). No one is talking about stoping the free market economy, just renationalising the railways and perhaps the post office and thames water.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#81)

by JR on Tue May 29, 2007 at 07:30:09 PM GMT

Why just Thames water? Do the water boards up in the 'provinces' not matter as much? Or are Londoners just not as pro-free-market as the rest of us?

But the trend in the Western world is to privatise the railways - no doubt France will end up doing the same soon enough.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#83)

by Lorin on Tue May 29, 2007 at 07:33:31 PM GMT

They won't privatise because they will see how terrible the rail serivce is here, and understand it is better for everyone that they remain in public hands. Funny that Shiraq who was a right winger, didn't want to privatise them


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#87)

by JR on Tue May 29, 2007 at 07:42:02 PM GMT

'Chirac' was not a right-winger by anyone's standards! Even Cruddas would give him a run for his money on who could be the most right-wing!

Our trains are 'terrible' because of under-investment. We don't place as much emphasis on public transport as the French do, which is a shame.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#90)

by Lorin on Tue May 29, 2007 at 07:47:54 PM GMT

You don't get it, we spent far less money on the railways when they were under BR than we are now, and BR was still far better. The french invest about the same amount of money in their trains as we do, but guess what! They don't have private companies making a profit of thier railways!!


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#91)

by JR on Tue May 29, 2007 at 07:55:28 PM GMT

No the French state invests a lot more than ours does. How do you think they keep breaking all these world speed records!


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#94)

by Lorin on Tue May 29, 2007 at 08:00:37 PM GMT

Lets suppose they invest more, if we invested that much, lots of it would still go to shareholders, how about, no shareholders=more money into railserivce without shareholders to please.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#98)

by JR on Wed May 30, 2007 at 12:26:50 PM GMT

No thanks. It doesn't work like that.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#103)

by Lorin on Wed May 30, 2007 at 03:27:07 PM GMT

Yes it does, no point denying the facts. When the boss of Express group UK makes 1 billion a year from the railways, think how he got it.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#106)

by Glass House on Wed May 30, 2007 at 05:55:09 PM GMT

Where did you get that figure from?


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#108)

by Lorin on Wed May 30, 2007 at 06:04:45 PM GMT

It was released, and bbc, channel 4 and ITV, thay showed it several days ago.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#109)

by Glass House on Wed May 30, 2007 at 06:13:23 PM GMT

Could you point me towards it please. The only reference i can find to Express Group on GoogleNews is that they've recently invested in more carriages!

http://news.google.co.uk/news?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&um=1&tab=wn&q=%22express+g roup%22&scoring=n


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#110)

by Lorin on Wed May 30, 2007 at 06:35:01 PM GMT

I'll look, I think it was express group not sure. But I found this: http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news/display.var.1322661.0.0.php


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#111)

by Lorin on Wed May 30, 2007 at 06:45:35 PM GMT

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,15410-13544684,00.html http://www.nationalexpressgroup.com/nx_ar2006/accounts/income/


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#112)

by Glass House on Wed May 30, 2007 at 07:58:09 PM GMT

Ok, well first of all the $1bn (it's actually 1.25bn) figure you quote is revenue, not profit - they in no ways "made £1bn". Their profit was only £67.2m - of which the public purse will take a sum.

Also, the £67.2m is from all of the Group's activities - buses as well as rail.

So to say that "the boss of Express group UK makes 1 billion a year from the railways" is demonstrably untrue. The figure you quote is not "the boss's", they did not "make" 1 billion and the £67.2m they did "make" (before tax) was not just from railways.

The 1bn figure (which is actually 1.25bn) you say they "made" is actually the group's income - over 94% of which was, according to the figures, was spent on frivolous corporate overheads like paying staff and fuelling their trains/buses.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#113)

by Lorin on Wed May 30, 2007 at 09:08:04 PM GMT

I made a mistake on this one, i thought I saw something different on TV, but i will admmit I made a mistake, untill proven otherwise


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#114)

by Glass House on Wed May 30, 2007 at 10:39:10 PM GMT

See, this is why debate on this board is so tough.

No wonder people on the left of the party are against public services being provided by private companies when people are telling them that they're making over £1bn profit.

Even I would be against private provision of public services if that much money was being taken away from front-line services.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#115)

by Lorin on Wed May 30, 2007 at 10:57:56 PM GMT

I'm sure I read it somewere, must have been wrong. I do know for a fact that pre privatisation the railways were valiued at 6.4 billion pounds, the tories sold them for 1.9 billion pounds. Underground prices in london are the highest in europe. Labour against public opinion, privatised the underground, and the buses. That was just express group, I shall check on all other companies.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#39)

by otware on Mon May 28, 2007 at 03:29:39 PM GMT

I don't give a stuff about your beloved market principles. I just want to go to the station and get on a clean, spaceous train which is on time with tickets at an affordable price. Privatisation does not offer that.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#55)

by JR on Mon May 28, 2007 at 09:15:58 PM GMT

Well nationalisation certainly doesn't. Just take a look at how pathetic all of the ex-nationalised industries were. That's why they were privatised in the first place.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#64)

by otware on Mon May 28, 2007 at 10:23:36 PM GMT

Just because the UK seems incapable of organising a piss-up in a brewery doesn't mean that the ideas are bad. I refer you to the state-owned SNCF in France. I think the whole TGV system is pretty good, shame we can't get the infrastructure for such a project because our network is carved up regionally with pathetic little companies desperate to sink their claws in.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#67)

by JR on Mon May 28, 2007 at 10:47:19 PM GMT

The reason why the French trains are so good is because they are very well funded by the state (and ours aren't) and are paid from the very high taxes that the French pay. Try asking British citizens if they'd mind paying that much tax and see what they say.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#71)

by jonesythered on Mon May 28, 2007 at 11:03:01 PM GMT

JR, you don't seem to have grasped the fact that public subsidies for trains are now far higher than they were under British Rail and therefore it's actually more expensive for taxpayers?


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#75)

by JR on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:07:51 PM GMT

Nothing wrong with that. I support more taxpayers money being spent on public transport.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#80)

by jonesythered on Tue May 29, 2007 at 07:27:54 PM GMT

The point I was making is that it's more expensive - i.e. because it's more inefficient to have a fragmented railway in which the companies involved demand a return. Ticket prices have also massive increased. These subsidies and price hikes haven't improved the railways - they've just subsidised the profits of the rail companies.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#82)

by JR on Tue May 29, 2007 at 07:33:20 PM GMT

No, I can't agree with you there - there is a huge amount of investment going into updating railway infrastructure and that's where the bulk of the money is going to.

I agree that a fragmented railway network is inefficient, but perhaps that will change over time. The fact that companies want to make a return encourages efficiency.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#93)

by otware on Tue May 29, 2007 at 07:59:09 PM GMT

The issue is the fragmented nature of the service caused by different private sector companies operating trains, which you yourself have just said is inefficient. Backtracking a bit, I see :-) "perhaps that will change over time." That really isn't good enough. I don't want to keep my fingers crossed that market forces will magically decide on a common aim and deliver cost-effective services better than the government can. I think government policy should be based on clear aims and stratergies, not wishfull thinking! As for Network Rail, it seems to be hanging in limbo at the moment between the private and public sector. Without a doubt that could be fully nationalised very, very easily.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#99)

by JR on Wed May 30, 2007 at 12:28:25 PM GMT

No backtracking at all on my part. The fact that it's a fragmented network is the government's fault - not the companies who run them. If you want a solution to this, then the government has to make it less fragmented, nobody else.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#97)

by jonesythered on Tue May 29, 2007 at 11:36:47 PM GMT

"I agree that a fragmented railway network is inefficient, but perhaps that will change over time. " How convincing. "The fact that companies want to make a return encourages efficiency." No, it encourages high ticket prices, high subsidies fromt he taxpayers, and cost-cutting at the expense of rail users.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#100)

by JR on Wed May 30, 2007 at 12:29:59 PM GMT

No. It encourages efficiency, competition and a better service for all.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#104)

by Lorin on Wed May 30, 2007 at 03:27:54 PM GMT

Thats why our railways services are so efficiant


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#42)

by Lorin on Mon May 28, 2007 at 05:46:04 PM GMT

If keeping the railways private is a "LABOUR" policy, why did the party conference vote against it, and voted to renationalise it? Rail companies make profits because the railways are peoples way of getting around, and they hold commuters to ransom, and can raise prices whenever they want. Railways shouldn't be about competition, it's a basic service.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#44)

by Glass House on Mon May 28, 2007 at 07:56:51 PM GMT

Define "basic service" and why it makes any difference over the most efficient type of provision.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#45)

by Lorin on Mon May 28, 2007 at 08:20:50 PM GMT

Its a service millions rely on and some peolple's only way to get around, therefore, we need a nationalised rail service that the government is accountable for. (btw Prescott and Blair promised this before 1997). I would rather have a cheap, efficiant and relyable service, and the money made is to ensure rail service improvment, and not go in to the wallet of some fat-cat.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#46)

by Glass House on Mon May 28, 2007 at 08:35:29 PM GMT

And your definition of "basic service"?


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#47)

by Lorin on Mon May 28, 2007 at 08:44:05 PM GMT

A service that is essential, and that millions across the country rely on.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#48)

by Glass House on Mon May 28, 2007 at 08:48:46 PM GMT

Does that mean your for nationalising farming and food distribution?


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#49)

by Lorin on Mon May 28, 2007 at 09:01:45 PM GMT

No, In the food industry there is a place for competition, however, in the railways, there is no place for competition, because the commuters have no other choice that to travel by that particular line. For example: If you want Gin, you have a varity of choices (My favorite is Gordon's....), however, when you want to get from London to Norwich, you can only use "ONE" railways or take a car.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#50)

by Glass House on Mon May 28, 2007 at 09:06:38 PM GMT

It's just that you said "Railways shouldn't be about competition, it's a basic service"

That, to me, implies that you think that anything that can be considered a basic service shouldn't involve competition.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#52)

by Lorin on Mon May 28, 2007 at 09:11:19 PM GMT

No, I think other areas of the market should be open to competition, providing there are other alternatives, this is not the case with railways or the NHS.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#58)

by JR on Mon May 28, 2007 at 09:23:09 PM GMT

But in practice it never ends up like that does it? When states start nationalising everything that moves, it nearly always ends up in an inefficient mess.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#61)

by Lorin on Mon May 28, 2007 at 09:32:37 PM GMT

I'm only talking about nationalising the railways, not "everything". And if what would you call the state of the rail service today if not "an inefficient mess"?


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#68)

by JR on Mon May 28, 2007 at 10:49:07 PM GMT

It's starts with the railways and if that gets nationalised, then the bigger demands come along. It's a domino effect and the Labour govt. musn't let that first domino even wobble!


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#70)

by otware on Mon May 28, 2007 at 11:00:59 PM GMT

I'd hardly call renationalising the post office a 'bigger demand'. Nobody wants to nationalise random shops or anything. It's just that there really needs to be a distinction between the public and private sector. The private sector is needed for some things, but not for others. Simple as that.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#74)

by JR on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:06:55 PM GMT

Well I would say the private sector is needed for most things, but not all.

You say "Nobody wants to nationalise random shops or anything", but doctordunc and Mikael were saying on another thread that they would approve of some sort of nationalisation of the entire media! Worrying stuff.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#76)

by Lorin on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:12:02 PM GMT

Well if they did, they don't speak for me and most people here.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#84)

by JR on Tue May 29, 2007 at 07:36:07 PM GMT

Thank god for that.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#89)

by Lorin on Tue May 29, 2007 at 07:45:03 PM GMT

But I don't beleive they did, hence the "If".


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#92)

by JR on Tue May 29, 2007 at 07:56:33 PM GMT

Ask them yourself if you want proof.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#79)

by doctordunc on Tue May 29, 2007 at 04:39:15 PM GMT

I support common ownership (of various sorts, nationalisation being one of least favourite) where possible/desirable. But I don't pretend that that is party policy! Renationalising the railways, however, is.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#85)

by JR on Tue May 29, 2007 at 07:37:12 PM GMT

The very thought of the media being put into 'common ownership' is worrying enough.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#95)

by otware on Tue May 29, 2007 at 08:04:11 PM GMT

Why so? Like he said, 'common ownership' does not necissarily mean nationalisation. It can mean some sort of co-operative. The Morning Star is run along these lines (not that I'm a particular fan of the Morning Star, just using an example). Another example would be Indymedia which is pretty much just run by the people who use/contribute to it. I agree that the idea of state-run nationalised media is not a pleasant one, but there's no reason why some form of co-operative idea can't be used...


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#96)

by doctordunc on Tue May 29, 2007 at 09:26:10 PM GMT

I might add that the BBC and Channel 4 are both publically owned, and are hardly the worst examples of broadcasters in the world.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#101)

by JR on Wed May 30, 2007 at 12:31:47 PM GMT

No. Media companies should be allowed to be as independent as they want. That is a fundamental right and not one that some sort of Stalinist 1984 government can take away from them.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#107)

by doctordunc on Wed May 30, 2007 at 05:57:30 PM GMT

Who's threatening that independence? Not me? Very wealthy companies can threaten the independence of media outlets just as much (or worse) than governments. The issue of independence of media outlets is not a simple one of state or private ownership, and to imagine it is is to ignore the problem.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#65)

by otware on Mon May 28, 2007 at 10:37:04 PM GMT

nobody here wants to nationalise everything that moves! At the moment we are talking about the railways - hardly the whole country is it?

But while we're on the subject - I would be pleased to see the water utility renationalised, the post office fully renationalised, the probation services renationalised and the PFI/privatisation in the NHS gradually reversed. But that's just me, and quite a few other people around here and many more members of the general public.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#69)

by JR on Mon May 28, 2007 at 10:51:24 PM GMT

Re: comment 68 - see what I mean!

Although to be fair, I wouldn't be upset at seeing the probation services renationalised, but the rest I would. I don't think any more privatisation in the NHS is really needed now either.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#63)

by jonesythered on Mon May 28, 2007 at 09:59:51 PM GMT

Southeastern Trains were given to a public franchise because of its poor performance under private ownership. It then became one of the best performers in the country - before being reprivatised last year. Public subsidies to the railways are far now higher than they were under British Railway. Bringing the railways back under public control would easy - when each franchise expires, you simply hand it over to public ownership. The fragmentation of the railways has been an utter disaster for everyone except the train companies who have made huge profits. Public ownership of the railways is supported by the majority of people in this country and would give a big boost to Labour's support.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#78)

by Lorin on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:21:07 PM GMT

It's not a LABOUR policy, it's a tory policy New Labour continued. Again, the party conference in 2004 voted for renationalisation, ergo, the LABOUR policy is to renationalise the railways.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#86)

by JR on Tue May 29, 2007 at 07:39:27 PM GMT

Funny that, because the LABOUR leadership don't seem to pushing this 'policy' of ours forward. Have Benn or Johnson pledged to push for the nationalisation of the railways? Do you think it will make it into the manifesto? Of course not.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#88)

by Lorin on Tue May 29, 2007 at 07:44:14 PM GMT

Well again if you are a leader of a party, you should listen to what your party sayes.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#102)

by JR on Wed May 30, 2007 at 12:32:17 PM GMT

If you're the PM, you do what's best for the country.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#105)

by Lorin on Wed May 30, 2007 at 03:30:21 PM GMT

So your saying a PM can ignore his own party..... And nationalising the railways would be best for commuters.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown and the next deputy leader (#35)

by lastword on Mon May 28, 2007 at 01:38:04 PM GMT

No argument there. I completely agree with you.


[ Parent ]

Re: To Gordon Brown (#5)

by fluffymike on Sun May 27, 2007 at 07:17:36 PM GMT

An excellent post AWB - a broad church represented in the Cabinet and pursuing progressive policies that just happen to be broadly popular in the country at large too. This was the sort of position that won over 10 million votes in 1987 and 1992 - more than the 9.5 million that voted for the govt in 2005. We won't be able to rely on another incompetent Tory party standing next time, and need to win back those voters who have lost hope in the party over the past few years. The only way to do that is with policies that will address their disillusionment and get them interested again. What we certainly cannot afford is another 3 years of 'more of the same'.


Re: offtopic (#43)

by marshajane on Mon May 28, 2007 at 07:36:28 PM GMT

Hi AWB Offtopic I know but I hear your interested in joining SYN? I am co-chair along with Owen JOnes check out the website socialistyouth.org and or the blog socialistyouthnetwork.blogspot.com Both have links to join etc or to contact us.


To Gordon Brown and the next Labour deputy leader | 115 comments (115 topical)