More Fibs from The Dour Leader

grimupnorth Mon May 21, 2007 at 06:20:33 PM GMT Print-friendly version Facebook

Gordon Brown says his coronation as Labour leader means there is "no appetite for far left policies in the Labour Party."



Let's take a  look at this statement.
 1. It is factually inaccurate. He has   no way of knowing what the Labour PARTY  thinks  as Party members and   trade unionists have not been asked.
2. Far left policies  were not being  presented. The "far left", as Gordon well knows, is represented by sects  like  the Socialist Party of Great Britain, CPGB, and toher revolutionary groups. If he is suggesting  policies  agreed on by Labour Party conference are "far left" then he is being disingenuous and dishonest.On that basis, Jon Cruddas is "far left." Quite.
3.He  has completely ignored the fact he has been not been elected ( well, he would, wouldn't he?)
 4. This completely flies in the face  of  the wishes of thousands  within the Party who wanted to see  a left turn and a "broad church."
5. Gordon  says he is "listening and learning, "
He is in fact doing the opposite -  completely ignoring the "appetite" which he saw within the Party for a return to democratic socialism.

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More Fibs from The Dour Leader | 59 comments (59 topical)

Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#1)

by JR on Mon May 21, 2007 at 07:41:08 PM GMT

How many more posts are we going to have like this?


Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#2)

by jonesythered on Mon May 21, 2007 at 07:45:39 PM GMT

Spot on, Susan.


Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#3)

by Mikael on Mon May 21, 2007 at 07:47:09 PM GMT

With regards to your second point, I honestly believe that, as things look now, the "Far-Left" would (all but) disappear should the Labour Party shift decisively to the Left.

Not that it matters, but could you clarify whether by SPGB you were referring to the SPEW (ex-Militant) or to the anti-Leninist SPGB?


Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#10)

by otware on Mon May 21, 2007 at 08:12:49 PM GMT

Haha the far left are comical. SPEW. What a name. And how many different variations on 'Communist Party' are there? I agree that most of the far-left groups would just shrivel up and die if the Labour Party were to return to a centre-left position. Let's face it, the only reason people vote for Respect and SPEW is because they're pissed off at New Labour.


[ Parent ]

Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#11)

by jkitleft on Mon May 21, 2007 at 08:28:07 PM GMT

There are six parties which consider themselves Communist: Communist Party of Britain, Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist), Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist), Communist Party of Great Britain (Provincial Central Commitee), New Communist Party of Britain, Revoloutionary Communist Group. Divided they fall.......................


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#13)

by otware on Mon May 21, 2007 at 08:31:49 PM GMT

I thought it was the Provisional Central Committee, not the Provincial Central Committee. lol But aren't we forgetting Arthur Scargill's Socialist Labour Party? Aren't they ridden with Stalinists? Or have they all left and joined the Judean Popular Peoples Front?


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#20)

by jkitleft on Mon May 21, 2007 at 10:15:38 PM GMT

indeed, well, the parties i mentioned were the ones which had 'communist' in their name.


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#24)

by grimupnorth on Tue May 22, 2007 at 07:40:36 AM GMT

Socialist Party of Great Britain


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#4)

by Glass House on Mon May 21, 2007 at 07:48:11 PM GMT

Grim, you've got to stop implying that McDonnell's platform was policies agreed on by Labour Party conference.

You KNOW that he was standing on a platform well to the left of that. What about the mass nationalisation plan?

You're doing yourself a disservice by implying that McDonnell was some innocent guy who "just wanted to let the membership have the policies they voted for" - he had a policy agenda well to the left of what conference voted for.


Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#5)

by Mikael on Mon May 21, 2007 at 07:51:45 PM GMT

Not true, GH. Some of this things he stands for (stood on), such as the the re-nationalisation of rail, were actually included in the Labour party manifesto back in '97.


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#6)

by Mikael on Mon May 21, 2007 at 07:52:09 PM GMT

"some of the things", of course!


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#7)

by Glass House on Mon May 21, 2007 at 07:53:33 PM GMT

Yes, I accept that some of McDonnell's policies are accepted by conference.

Just because some of McDonnell's policies were conference-passed, doesn't mean they all were - Grim implies that they were.


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#8)

by jkitleft on Mon May 21, 2007 at 08:09:04 PM GMT

he wasn't calling for mass-nationalisation. wants to re-nationalise the rails.


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#9)

by Glass House on Mon May 21, 2007 at 08:12:45 PM GMT

Didn't I hear that he wanted to nationalise a tonne of industry too?


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#12)

by jkitleft on Mon May 21, 2007 at 08:28:55 PM GMT

which ones?


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#15)

by doctordunc on Mon May 21, 2007 at 08:39:48 PM GMT

Just had a quick flick through the manifesto and couldn't see anything of that sort (not that John and lots of people on the left don't favour more common ownership in a general sense - I don't think there were any proposals other than renationalising rail and opposing further privatisation).

Have a look across some online policies if you like.


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#18)

by Glass House on Mon May 21, 2007 at 08:55:22 PM GMT

I could have sworn he said it in an interview I watched.


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#16)

by doctordunc on Mon May 21, 2007 at 08:42:14 PM GMT

But anyway - you're right: some of the policies weren't passed at conference (withdrawing the troops, for example). It was a Labour left agenda. But Gordon describing it as 'far left' was Gordon being silly (as he has a worrying tendency to be).


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#19)

by Glass House on Mon May 21, 2007 at 08:55:49 PM GMT

Most of the country would regard them as "far left"


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#29)

by grimupnorth on Tue May 22, 2007 at 07:52:31 AM GMT

Gordon isn't "silly".He's very very scary


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#30)

by doctordunc on Tue May 22, 2007 at 08:34:27 AM GMT

There's also a good deal of the ridiculous about him. The spectacle of him going around the country debating himself - if I weren't so angry - would be hilarious.


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#17)

by Mikael on Mon May 21, 2007 at 08:45:19 PM GMT

McDonnell's platform is far closer to Conference policy than New Labour's. Is there anything more that you need to know.???

One thing New Labour can't do is hiding behind Conference policy - they've drifted far away from it and constantly neglect its decisions - so don't even try... It would be both pointless and ridiculous to do so!


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#23)

by JR on Tue May 22, 2007 at 01:25:15 AM GMT

McDonnell's platform was too close for comfort to the ones put forward when we lost four general elections in a row. That's all you need to know.


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#43)

by fluffymike on Thu May 24, 2007 at 05:14:27 PM GMT

Ah yes - those would be the general elections when we got more votes than we did last time I assume? Don't think that just because New Labour won against a totally demoralised and confused opposition that that represents a rejection of left-wing policies amongst the general public. In the 80s Thatcher developed a selfish me-first agenda that a lot of people signed up to - more than who have signed up to Blair/Brown's agenda incidentally. The fall in voter turnout is partly due to those who fully believe in the policies of true Labour and who cannot bring themselves to vote for this NuLab version. Once (if) the Tories get their act sorted out, they will probably destroy NuLabour unless it starts to bring back those who it has deserted. The numbers are there for a fourth term - but not without reinvigorating the old labour voters who have drifted away. Speaking to them on doorstep after doorstep, they simply don't care who wins the next election - they see Blair and Brown as the same, and they don't like it. Without those people coming back, Brown will take us to an ignominious defeat in 2010.


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#46)

by JR on Fri May 25, 2007 at 12:38:32 AM GMT

None of the last seven general election victories (through Thatcher, Major and Blair) could hardly be described as leftie victories - indeed the last one which could be described as this was in 1974. This, to me, represents a rejection of left-wing politics. This clearly still exists today since either Brown or Cameron will win the next one and neither of them are lefties. In Britain and in the clear majority of the Labour party, there is just no appetite to return to the bad old days.


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#48)

by fluffymike on Fri May 25, 2007 at 08:22:17 AM GMT

Thanks for that reply totally ignoring what I'd actually said, or indeed any point that I'd made... But I guess that's how some people operate these days - ignoring difficult points and deflecting the discussion onto irrelevant tangents. Are you an MP yet? If not, I'm sure you'll be signed up for a safe NuLab seat soon :-)


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#51)

by JR on Sat May 26, 2007 at 12:05:17 AM GMT

You argued that there was no 'rejection of left-wing politics' and I explained why I disagreed. I don't see what the problem is.


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#59)

by fluffymike on Sun May 27, 2007 at 06:43:05 PM GMT

My problem is that you seemed to ignore the point I was making. My point was that, numerically, there have been more voters willing to support 'left-wing' Labour agendas in the past than have voted for the last two Blairite govts. It was argued that we only won those elections because even less people were inspired enough to go out and vote Tory. If we'd had a more 'left wing' agenda, then we might well have inspired the numbers that voted for a more 'left-wing' agenda in the past. The relevance of this is that now the Tories have a leader who might inspire more people to vote for him than his previous muppets, Labour need to get back to the level of voters that we inspired in, say 1992, as without the votes of those people who feel let down by the past 10 years of Labour govt, we will lose. Thus, to win in 2010, we need a manifesto with a more 'left wing' stance, and we need a couple of years of more socially inclusive actions to back any future manifesto up with.


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#26)

by grimupnorth on Tue May 22, 2007 at 07:47:26 AM GMT

Conference last year voted against more NHS privatisation.Also direct investment in council housing and more trade union rightts (including supportfor Gate Gourmet workers and secondary picketing).Conference also opposed top-up fees. as anyone who read John's campaign literature will know, these formed the key part ofhis policy platform.To suggest these are "far left" is risible


[ Parent ]

Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#25)

by grimupnorth on Tue May 22, 2007 at 07:42:38 AM GMT

What mass nationalisation plan? John was calling for re-nationalisation of the railways and an end to PFI.Jon Cruddas I believe is also speaking out against unnecessary and costly PFI projects. Is he far-left, too?


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#14)

by Group51 on Mon May 21, 2007 at 08:35:30 PM GMT

What I don't understand is how Gordon Brown can claim to be listening, while at the same time saying he is a conviction politician. He's already made his mind up, surely?


Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#21)

by Mozzer1989 on Mon May 21, 2007 at 10:34:22 PM GMT

Grim I don't think this sort of posting is constructive at all.


[ Parent ]

Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#28)

by grimupnorth on Tue May 22, 2007 at 07:51:07 AM GMT

Maybe not but it has to be said because Brown is attempting to paint honest left policies (most agreed by Party Conference) as "far left." As a man with a long background in Labour history, he knows full well that far left is groups advocating revolutionary socialism and absolute state control and the abolition of capitalism. He just cannot be allowed to get away such stuff.These were policies supported by a significant part of his Party. He is welcome to disagree,but IMHO he is basically trying to eradicate ANY opposition to NewLabour. Now that really is "far left" ie Stalinist.


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#27)

by grimupnorth on Tue May 22, 2007 at 07:47:53 AM GMT

Yes.


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#31)

by swatantra on Tue May 22, 2007 at 09:24:04 AM GMT

Isn't it time to rally behind our new Leader, stop all this carping and get on with laying down the foundations for a renaisance? Its a tough old world out there and we've a mountain to climb.


[ Parent ]

Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#32)

by Mikael on Tue May 22, 2007 at 09:44:10 AM GMT

What new Leader??? We don't have an elected at this point! How can we rally behind a "Leader" who only enjoys the "legitimacy" of having been nominated by 313 MPs in a Party with more than a 100 000 members, supported by millions of Trade Unionists - all of whom have been denied a say in either case!?!

You claim that we have a mountain to climb, but, trust me, Brown has just pushed us off a cliff!


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#33)

by grimupnorth on Tue May 22, 2007 at 10:05:51 AM GMT

No, he's pushed himself off a cliff.Cameron is now having a right old laugh as Brown tours the country like some dictator and Blair (who?) ashe puts it, swans around like a rock star on a farewell tour. OK, Brown's won, squarely ifnot fairly.So why doesn't he quit these ridiculous hustings, get into Number 10, and get on with it. I daresay you have all bought your £50.00 ticket for Brown's official investiture in Manchester.As someone said, it would be hilarious if it wasn't so appallingly anti-democratic.


[ Parent ]

Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#35)

by Mikael on Tue May 22, 2007 at 10:23:57 AM GMT

When I said "us", I meant the Labour Party, not the Labour Left - in case you were confused. This, of course, included Brown himself; who, as you say, will be touring the country - listening and learning, no doubt - and what for??? To engage in a monologue with Party members??? To be plebiscited??? To bask in his own "legitimacy"??? Whatever the reaon, it will make him and the Party look ridiculous!

So, when I said that "Brown has pushed us off a cliff", I meant that, by auto-proclaiming himself leader of the Party, far from making a fourth Labour election victory easier to obtain (so to speak), he has made it virtually impossible!


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#34)

by doctordunc on Tue May 22, 2007 at 10:11:03 AM GMT

Brown's Mars-sized brain didn't even realise that a contest would have enabled people to do precisely that. Obviously we can't spend the next few years (however long he hangs about) talking about nothing but the fact that 'our leader' hasn't been elected by anyone, but it's going to be a few weeks yet! And if the Brown team want to pretend there's still a 'campaign', then it would be churlish of us not to continue to challenge it in some way.


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#22)

by SocialistAC on Mon May 21, 2007 at 10:45:08 PM GMT

If this is a sign of further centralisation and de-democratisation of the party, we on the left may even come to think of Blair in positive terms eventually...


Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#36)

by Lorin on Tue May 22, 2007 at 07:21:53 PM GMT

"Father Gordon" will lose the elections if he does not change Blair's policies. He knows this(I hope), therefore, he will have to introduce a policy that is supported by the majoirty of the party and not just by the party elites or Mandy. And at least he is slightly to the left of Blair.


Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#37)

by jkitleft on Tue May 22, 2007 at 09:59:16 PM GMT

I think the polls are starting to show something. Blair was becoming an electoral liability. In the opinion polls after Blair announced his resignation, we started gaining votes back from the Lib Dems and others, due to people thinking Brown may be that bit more left-wing than Blair. People I spoke too, who had voted Lib Dems/Greens and other parties at the last election, had said they were finally moving back to Labour, at the thought of the end of the New Labour project. I think that project will continue, but Brown is assumed as more left-wing than Blair.


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#38)

by grimupnorth on Wed May 23, 2007 at 09:10:34 AM GMT

I wouldn't hold your breath.....I hope you are right.


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#39)

by swatantra on Wed May 23, 2007 at 10:22:50 AM GMT

You mean: the 'Gord Father'. As many of you have already sussed out, its all illusory that Gordon is a man of the Left; he isn't. He is the other half of new Labour and has been driving the project forward, diligently, for the past ten years.


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#40)

by grimupnorth on Thu May 24, 2007 at 04:33:05 PM GMT

I sessedthat out several years ago, which is why I veered to the left......


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#41)

by jkitleft on Thu May 24, 2007 at 05:00:06 PM GMT

were you more to the traditional 'right' of the party before then?


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#42)

by jkitleft on Thu May 24, 2007 at 05:00:41 PM GMT

rather, on the traditional right


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#44)

by grimupnorth on Thu May 24, 2007 at 08:17:31 PM GMT

No, I was soft left I suppose. But Blair's "no reverse gear" speech to 2003 conference made me so angry that I went to a Campaign Group meeting. I had hitherto imagined the SCG was way to the left.I discovered that it wasn't and that in fact these people shared my views. The rest is history......


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#45)

by jkitleft on Thu May 24, 2007 at 09:19:03 PM GMT

One thing that annoys me about Blair, is that he always introduces a soundbite, with his 'no reverse gear' quote being the soundbite that makes me cringe, the most.


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#47)

by JR on Fri May 25, 2007 at 12:45:00 AM GMT

'No reverse gear' made an important point that we should never return to how we used to be. Kind of like Thatcher's "the lady's not for turning" which worked well for her.


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#49)

by grimupnorth on Fri May 25, 2007 at 11:24:14 AM GMT

Until 1990


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#52)

by JR on Sat May 26, 2007 at 12:06:24 AM GMT

Well to be fair she did have 11 and a half years as PM - hardly bad from her point of view.


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#50)

by jkitleft on Fri May 25, 2007 at 05:53:54 PM GMT

That year was when Blair's New Labour bubble finally burst. Before you tell me won another election, and we're still going to have a New Labour leader, the whole positive image of New Labour was finally trashed by Iraq and Top-up Fees. Now people have to find excuses to vote for Labour, or rather, not to vote for other parties. Before, New Labour was the almost 'positive' party, where you would vote for them because people liked them, now people don't care who gets in next time. I said on another thread traditional Labour voters could abandon us again at the next election, you said 'But surely they would vote for us over the Tories?'. Well, people don't see a difference in any of the parties anymore, and just don't care who wins.


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#53)

by JR on Sat May 26, 2007 at 12:09:21 AM GMT

I find that hard to believe. So ardent lefties would prefer to see Old-Etonian toff Cameron in No.10 than Brown? Hmmm, I doubt that.

Also, all leaders lose their shine at some point - it's impossible to stay popular when you're in power as you're always going to upset somebody. That's politics - all careers end in failure (although Blair's hasn't ended too badly).


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#54)

by jkitleft on Sat May 26, 2007 at 10:23:34 AM GMT

they just don't care. The perception is that all the parties are the same as each other.


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#55)

by jkitleft on Sat May 26, 2007 at 10:26:29 AM GMT

As hard as this may seem for people as interested in politics as us, people being interested in politics has gone down, because the parties are always chasing after a minority of voters. So we may understand that there are left-wing people in the party, but many people won't.


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#56)

by Lorin on Sat May 26, 2007 at 02:53:25 PM GMT

Your right, The party with the largest majority in Britain isn't Labour its the non of the above party. More and more people aren't voting because all parties have become reletively similar. I can see Cameron sitting in Blair's cabinet as I can see Blair sitting in Cameron's cabinet. The only reason most people are voting labour is because they don't want the tories back and the libs are retards, and look at the results of that in the local elections and in scotland. Note that in Wales Rhodri Morgan, who was opposed to many of Blair's policies(Iraq,fees,private hospitals) still has a majority.


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#57)

by JR on Sat May 26, 2007 at 04:02:54 PM GMT

No he doesn't actually. He's forming a minority government in Wales and was nearly toppled last week by an unholy alliance of the Tories, LibDems and Plaid.


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Re: More Fibs from The Dour Leader (#58)

by Lorin on Sat May 26, 2007 at 04:32:35 PM GMT

But he has 27 out of 60 seats, so his has a majority and will probably sit with the Lib Dems.


[ Parent ]

More Fibs from The Dour Leader | 59 comments (59 topical)