Welcome home! The true story can now be told

grayee Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:12:27 PM GMT Print-friendly version Facebook

"We had a blindfold and plastic cuffs, hands behind our backs, heads against the wall. Basically there were weapons cocking. Someone, I'm not sure who, someone said, I quote, 'lads, lads I think we're going to get executed'. After that comment, someone was sick and as far as I was concerned he had just had his throat cut." Royal Marine Joe Tindell




Good to see the Royal Navy and Marines home at last, safe and well (in the circumstances). I think that they did a very good job under horrendous conditions. Faced with the prospect of summary execution or 7 years in an Iranian jail (pretty much the same thing) the "tongue in cheek" apologies by the Brits for the "apparent" intrusion into Iranian waters, fooled no-one except their less than bright kidnappers. Irony is apparently lost on Islamic fascists. Who it is clear simply had no idea how this television footage was being interpreted world wide. Nor the support they had created for a pre-emptive attack on their nuclear facilities (which I don't share - at the moment).

The Iranians behaved in the usual appalling brutal manner, pretty much as most right thinking people expected. It is such a same that such a country with such a rich culture and proud history is presently been run by an ignorant and uneducated leadership. The BBC are now reporting that their ambassador Rasoul Movahedian is saying "Iran seeks goodwill over captives". This raises the question what qualities are needed to become an Iranian Ambassador? Is the lobotomy compulsory (or even necessary due to the obvious inbreeding by the Iranian diplomatic corp?)

While the "Far Left" and "Right" (increasingly two sides of the same coin on such issues) in this country haven't exactly showed much judgement on how to respond. On the one hand we get the usual suspects such as John McDonnell MP sticking up for Iran and we get twassocks such as the Daily Mail who attacked the hostages as "puppets" who should have fought to the last bullet.

There are elements in the Far Left who will automatically side with anyone who appears to be "anti-American". See the tosh spoken also about Mugabe, while the Daily Mail is also so keen to attack Labour that they will stoop to any depths.

The person who seems to have come out of this the best is Tony Blair. "Tone" and I have had our differences over the years. However, he and Beckett seem to have handled this very well. By being firm but measured the Iranians were boxed into a corner and realised that Britain would not apologise to Iran and they had to back down.
I think that we ought to make sure that boarding parties are properly protected in the future and that Iran is aware of what will be the militery response if they try a similar trick in the future. If any Iranian warship comes any near any British craft then the Iranians face an early bath.


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Welcome home! The true story can now be told | 53 comments (53 topical)

Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#1)

by grimupnorth on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 04:17:30 PM GMT

John Gray,aka "Grayee" is a right-wing blogger who recently posted some disgusting personal slurs on John McDonnell. He continues to do so.
John did not "stick up" for the Iranians.
 Here is what he actually said on his leadership blog. I quote verbatim.
  "We all want to ensure that the British Service personnel detained by Iran are safe and secure and are released unharmed. However there are questions that have to be answered by all sides about what led to their arrest by the Iranians.
Where exactly were the British service staff operating?
In whose territory were they when they were detained? What was their role or mission?
Similarly, where were the Iranian forces?
What was the Iranian operation?
Especially, what were the grounds upon which they detained the British personnel?
"My fear is that already the hawks in the US are using the detention of the British military personnel as a further justification for military action again Iran.
"Some of those surrounding Bush are content to use this incident to set Iran up for further provocative actions against Iran and even invasion.
"Instead what is needed is calm negotiation to get to the truth of how and why the British were detained and how they can be freed safely."
End of John McDonnell's quote.
 Former US ambassador John Bolton (a "hawk") has already said he thinks Britain was  weak and that this WON'T change US policy on Iran a la President Bush.IE military intervention.
 We have a Govt that thinks it's fine for military  personnel to make capital out of their experiences.Newspaper proprietors  who profiteer out of the debacle which is the Middle East. I hope "grayee" enjoyed the tales told  by the hostages.
I think ( as I said in previous post) the fact they  were OK'd on selling their stories  by the MoD is an utter  disgrace.  


Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#2)

by grimupnorth on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 05:09:18 PM GMT

And, as I listen to the PM programme on Radio 4, seems I am in the majority.The MoD is already backtracking......


[ Parent ]

Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#3)

by JR on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 05:51:47 PM GMT

John McNoHoper! I quite like that one! It comes as no surprise to me that McDonnell took a soft line in this. He shouldn't even be asking what territory the sailors were in when captured after every government in the civilised world said they were in Iraqi waters. They were in Iraqi waters and that's the end of it.

I think it's pretty outrageous that they have been allowed to sell their stories. Whilst as captives they acted in a way that most of us would, that certainly does not make them heroes. They are not deserving of 'six-figure-sums' by any means. Especially when brave troops are dying in Iraq and Afghanistan at the same time.


Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#4)

by Loz on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 02:34:25 PM GMT

Absolutely.

Further more, it is a disgrace that we have memberes of our armed forces being quoted as saying they 'cried like a baby'.

Hasn't this whole shambles humiliated us enough?


[ Parent ]

Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#5)

by grimupnorth on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 03:06:17 PM GMT

John  McD did not take a "soft line" any more than the Govt did.As I earlier pointed out. He was calling for calm and diplomacy - which in the end is what transpired.
Can we please start targetting those who deserve it ie Labour politicans  and Ministers who take us to war with  disastrous consequences for thousands  and then expect the highest office, and British servicemen and women who ,frankly, shame the nation.


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#6)

by JR on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 03:11:34 PM GMT

McDonnell would never have stood up to Iran if things went wrong and that's why he will never be trusted to be a PM.


[ Parent ]

Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#7)

by grimupnorth on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 03:33:36 PM GMT

Given British foreign policy since 2003, Do people now "trust" Tony Blair or, indeed, the Government generally? You are actually saying people would  be less likely to trust a  politician  whose judgement  was, actually, right on Iraq and whose  original stance  on Iraq is supported by the majority of the British people .
Stop the left-bashing  for a minute and just think about it.


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#8)

by Loz on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 03:36:45 PM GMT

The point is, the guy is virtually a complete pacifict.

As noble as that might be, the majority do not want a pacifist.

Thankfully, he will not even come close.

Soo enough, he'll be back in his little cage.


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#9)

by grimupnorth on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 03:52:32 PM GMT

It's a  bit sad, isn't it,Loz, that you  just resort to personal  insults and unpleasantness.The more you do that, the less anyone with anything serious to say will  post on LabourHome. Presumably that's your goal.  


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#10)

by CitizenAndreas on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 05:01:35 PM GMT

You have a point, the monkey jibe was uncalled for however the implied assumption you make about Loz is also a step too far. Loz's views most definitely fall on the hawkish/right side of the party but as far as I can tell his posts generally keep to the topic and generally avoid being insulting. Suggesting that Loz aims to undermine Labourhome is plain incorrect.

More importantly, he has a point about John McD's foreign policy stance. From what i've read it seems exceptionally pacifist, while it appears he made the correct judgment call on Iraq I'm would be uncomfortable about a Prime Minister who was consistently taking a pacifict line.


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#11)

by grimupnorth on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 05:24:42 PM GMT

In answer  to your question.
John McD is NOT a pacifist:
Hansard, Oct  8 2001:
"Every action that we take in the coming weeks needs to be guided by the principles of a just war. Our concept of a just war goes back to Augustine, Aquinas, Vittoria, Grotius and others and formed the basis of the charter of the United Nations. They are also the principles laid out in the Koran. The first principle is that there has to be just cause."  


[ Parent ]

Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#12)

by Loz on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 05:39:47 PM GMT

You seem to know quite a lot about him, put my mind at rest, has he supported ANY military action during his political career?

Either directly involving our country or the actions of others?

And I wasn't calling him a monkey, it was just a figure of speech.

And lets be fair, plenty of people are pretty much spamming their political propaganda, at least if I post something it's got a point to it.


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#13)

by grimupnorth on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 05:45:35 PM GMT

Well, I would say the same Loz. I only post if I have something to say. Increasingly, it seems a bit pointless.


[ Parent ]

Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#14)

by davidfloyd on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 07:57:13 PM GMT

"The point is, the guy is virtually a complete pacifict.

As noble as that might be, the majority do not want a pacifist."

You right-wingers are useless.

You don't even know your enemy well enough to insult him properly.

The point you would've made if knew anything at all about McDonnell was that, while expecting pacifism from the US and his allies, he public supported the IRA's military campaign, stating that liberation comes through "bombs and bullets".

Thank you and good night.  


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#15)

by JR on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 08:01:05 PM GMT

Did he seriously say that?

If he did, then the man's not fit to be in the Labour party let alone run for leader.

I genuinely hope that he did not say that such a terrible thing.


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#17)

by Glass House on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 08:06:27 PM GMT

JR - you didn't know that?

That quote is the reason why I am 100% certain he wont win the leadership. (as opposed to 95% sure)


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#18)

by JR on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 08:15:07 PM GMT

I vaguely remember it being said on here at some point, but the fact that it hasn't been discussed at length really surprises me.

Before I just didn't like him because he was a leftie, but now I think he is just a very nasty individual. If anyone on here says he has principles, then they're crazy. How can he go on about Iraq and Iran, yet he was quite happy to see IRA terrorists blow up hundreds of people? Madness.


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#16)

by davidfloyd on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 08:03:51 PM GMT

The full quote is:
"It's about time we started honouring those people involved in the armed struggle. It was the bombs and bullets and sacrifice made by the likes of Bobby Sands that brought Britain to the negotiating table."

Doesn't sound like much of pacifist to me.

See here for more:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/2949688.stm


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#19)

by JR on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 08:21:42 PM GMT

Terrible. I see he referred to it a 'British occupation of Ireland'.

Does he not realise that the majority of the people of Northern Ireland want to stay British? Idiot.


[ Parent ]

Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#20)

by doctordunc on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 10:01:38 PM GMT


The quotation comes from the Sun - I've no idea how accurate it is, but if you bear in mind that John McDonnell is full of praise for the government's achievements in Northern Ireland and has repeatedly said that peace in Northern Ireland should have been Blair's legacy, I'll go with what he actually says rather than how right-wingers choose to interpret a quotation attributed to him in the Sun.

He was delivering the Bobby Sands memorial lecture.  Bobby Sands died on Hunger Strike in prison, and was an elected MP.  I assume his family would have been present.  Whatever you think of the Irish republican cause, Bobby Sands' contribution can be described as a sacrifice.

As for the British occupation of Ireland - it was occupied for a very long time, JR.  I don't want to get into the troubled politics of Northern Ireland because we are at a moment of hope and shouldn't be focusing on decades of strife, but suffice to say it is much more complicated than you suggest.

Nice to see Compass Youth making a positive contribution to the debate, courtesy of the Murdoch press.


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#21)

by grayee on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 11:38:05 PM GMT

What about my comments that John No McHoper MP stabbed my trade union in the back last year in the middle of our dispute over pensions?  No wonder UNISON the biggest trade union in the Country (and one of the biggest Labour Party affiliates) have kicked him out (his CLP) out of the list of sponsored MP's see http://grayee.blogspot.com/2007/03/shameful-mcdonnell-slur-on-british-navy.html


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#22)

by grimupnorth on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 10:43:50 AM GMT

What a shame Labour Home now has  the unpleasant company of the likes of John Gray who is a particularly nasty piece of work. The IRA quote is on Wikipedia and has been  quoted, as Duncan said, out of context. Thatcher WAS responsible for the deaths of people like hunger striker Bobby Sands and he WAS a brave man. Mo Mowlam visited Long Kesh. Peter Hain negotiates with Sinn feiners who were responsible  directly or indirectly  25years ago for deaths of civilians. Doesn't mean they condone everything the IRA did.The British Army were the occupying force in Northern Ireland. People died.War is a nasty business.Now the British occupy Iraq and people  die every day thanks to Tony Blair's foreign policy. Many of you obviously don't have a problem with that.


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#23)

by davidfloyd on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 11:45:24 AM GMT

"The IRA quote is on Wikipedia and has been  quoted, as Duncan said, out of context. Thatcher WAS responsible for the deaths of people like hunger striker Bobby Sands and he WAS a brave man."

You're trying to have your cake and eat it here.

Are you saying that McDonnell was quoted out of context but was also correct, even if his quote is taken in the context reported?

Are you really suggesting you don't understand the difference between negotiating with Sinn Fein and supported the IRA's armed struggle?

The point, with reference to the leadership, is that John McDonnell needs to be clear whether or  not he does or doesn't support the British democratic system that he is notionally seeking to put himself at the head of.

Gerry Adams, for example, doesn't recognise the leigitmacy of the Westminster parliment and - quite reasonably - doesn't sit in it.

Comrades may believe it's a legitimate position for John McDonnell to believe in armed struggle as an alternative when democracy has failed.

I'm not clear how someone could hold this position and be the leader of a mainstream political party.  


[ Parent ]

Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#24)

by doctordunc on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 12:21:21 PM GMT


Tony Blair believes in armed struggle when democracy has NOT failed, as evidenced by his decision to bomb Iraq despite Hans Blix reporting that the inspectors could do their job in a matter of months (contradicting a clear pledge to the British people).  Yet he seems to manage to lead a major party.

The point people are making is both that John was quoted out of context - and put in context his point was a perfectly sensible one (and not a million miles from the position of the Labour Government).


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#26)

by davidfloyd on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 12:48:31 PM GMT

Neither of you have contextualised the comment in a way that made it mean anything different.

The problem you have - and I think the McDonnell campaign has this problem in several areas - is you can't decide whether to defend John's positions or pretend that he doesn't hold them.

Tony Blair does believe that Britain should - with its allies - invade countries and remove governments that he doesn't like. There's no confusion there.

I think he's wrong but it doesn't conflict with his position as Prime Minister of Britain.


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#27)

by doctordunc on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 06:07:53 PM GMT


John is a hugely enthusiastic supporter of the peace process in Northern Ireland.  His position was, and always has been, that the British government had to talk to Sinn Fein.  He believed the peace process should have started much sooner and was hugely critical of the Tory governments in the '80s and '90s because they didn't (and later couldn't) take the positive steps that Blair, Mowlam, Mandelson and Hain have taken.


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#30)

by JR on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 11:57:28 PM GMT

'When democracy has not failed'? Since when was Saddam Hussein's Iraq a democracy?

When we invaded Iraq, we toppled an evil dictatorial regime and replaced it with a democracy. That is a noble cause in my opinion because I believe in democracy and I believe that every country should be a democracy.

doctordunc, your views seem to be getting more extreme (and more incorrect) as the days go on.


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#33)

by doctordunc on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 12:52:07 AM GMT


Of course Saddam's Iraq was not a democracy.  I was talking about the political diplomatic process of dealing with what we were told was the cause of the war: weapons of mass destruction.


[ Parent ]

Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#35)

by Glass House on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 11:56:40 AM GMT

That's not democracy - that's politics


[ Parent ]

Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#29)

by JR on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 11:52:10 PM GMT

I have a problem with you calling it (Iraq) an 'occupation'.

The British Army is not an occupying force in Northern Ireland and hasn't been for a very long time. What happened in the past is just history - what is happening now is what counts.


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#40)

by doctordunc on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 12:55:12 AM GMT


I agree - what's happening now is what counts (but when speaking at memorial events, talking about the past is an occupational hazard); what's happening now is a peace process that you, me, John McDonnell and Tony Blair all support.

So what are you banging on about?


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#49)

by JR on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 11:57:24 PM GMT

You've shown me no evidence to prove he supports the peace process. And even if he does then that still doesn't excuse what he said. He said a dreadful thing and should be ashamed of himself for coming out with such vile filth.


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#25)

by doctordunc on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 12:23:22 PM GMT


John McDonnell is still a UNISON MP and his comments about the union were being echoed by UNISON activists throughout the organisation, from branch activists to the NEC.  UNISON NEC members and other significant figures have backed John for the leadership, in a personal capacity.

Is this all you've got?


[ Parent ]

Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#31)

by JR on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 12:02:30 AM GMT

Well to be honest, nothing could be worse than McDonnell backing the IRA over a 'British occupation'. If he doesn't even believe in democracy and the rule of law then why he even bothering to stand?


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#34)

by doctordunc on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 01:14:21 AM GMT


This from a supporter of 'Bomber Blair'?


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#36)

by Glass House on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 11:57:29 AM GMT

cheap


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#38)

by doctordunc on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 12:16:29 AM GMT


Not really


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#39)

by doctordunc on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 12:52:54 AM GMT

Sorry - this probably needs rather more than 'not really'; if JR had picked up on other points made and constructed an argument based on having digested what others had said, then I'd have given him a considered response.  But if he's essentially just sloganeering, I'm perfectly happy to match it.


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#41)

by Glass House on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 11:06:14 AM GMT

My point is that it is cheap to make an equivilency between Blair, who never directed the army an civilians and wanted to create a government in Iraq that was based on the will of the Iraqi people, and the IRA, who deliberately targetted civilians and cared not one jot that their cause went against the will of the people in Northern Ireland.


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#42)

by doctordunc on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 11:53:58 AM GMT


Well we're entering dangerous territory for me here (only because in the past when I've put my view across it has then been presented by critics as if my personal views must therefore be the views of my 'wing' of the party, or the campaign I support.  But my personal view is: you're right there is no moral equivalency between Blair's assault on Iraq and the IRA's campaign of violence: I condemn both, but Blair's assault is worse.  Don't tell me he didn't target civilians: not a single one of those buildings that exploded in 'shock and awe' didn't have security staff, cleaners, nearby residents killed in them.  And huge groups of conscripted soldiers were wiped out from the air.  He had those meetings with generals where they'd have given him an estimate of how much 'collateral damage' (ghastly term) there'd be.  He'd have had estimates about how many of our soldiers would die.  But he was prepared to 'pay the blood price' - and the blood price for what?  Relations with the US government apparently, so he could put pressure on Bush to restart the peace process between Israel and Palestine, I seem to remember.  Well, how's that going?  And Blair said he was prepared to pay, but did not know if the people of Iraq or of Britain shared his view (and ignored most indicators thereof).

I don't want to focus on the 'which is worse' part: I think the use of violence and terror for political ends is completely wrong.  But I believe Tony Blair is someone that does use violence and terror for political ends, and sometimes on a massive scale.  This is a War of Terror, not a War on Terror, for there is terrorism on both sides.

So, no, don't imagine for a moment that my comments about Blair's foreign policy are cheap or made lightly: I am absolutely appalled and what has been done, what is continued to be done, and what might be planned.


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#43)

by Glass House on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 12:40:39 PM GMT

I guess this is the post we're gonna fall out over?

I just think that you don't give Blair enough credit. He didn't go to war to stay close to America or for oil, we went to war because he felt that he could use this nation's armed forces to help create a democracy - I think that's a noble aim.

There's a good article about the way the 'anti' brigade seem to think the whole thing is so clear-cut here (although it attacks the 'pro-war' bods too for the same thing):
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tish-durkin/iraq-a-place-of-ambivale_b_45145.html


[ Parent ]

Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#44)

by doctordunc on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 01:02:11 PM GMT


Well - I'm interested in that assessment.  If you're right and that was his aim then he's a liar (he repeatedly said that he was NOT going to war for regime change and even on the eve of the war said that Saddam could stay in power if he 'complied' - though what he meant by 'complied' by that stage was utterly baffling).    But I'd rather he was a liar with a vaguely progressive (if massively misguided) agenda, than a liar with a purely imperialist adenda (or even, worse, one of perceived political expedience.  

If that WAS what it was about, then it is even more shocking that there was not more thought and effort put into the aftermath - if it was always going to be about nation-building, then what was the plan?

If Blair has some global vision of spreading democracy at gunpoint, then he seriously needs to reconsider it.  As many movements that have attempted to attain their political goals through violence have learned - eventually you'll have to use political processes.  There is no military solution to the mess in Iraq; eventually the UN will have to bail the US and the UK out, and it will have been a long drawn-out messy process.  Far better to have let us the UN resolve the problem in a long drawn-out messy process that saw far fewer deaths and left us having some moral authority in the world.


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#45)

by Glass House on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 01:12:42 PM GMT

I agree that the aftermatch was botched but I'm more inclined to blame the Americans for that. It's a particulary American right view that, as long as people have got liberty, everything else will fall into place.


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#46)

by doctordunc on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 01:25:46 PM GMT


But essentially Iraqis still live in a military dictatorship.  Many of the constraints on liberty under Saddam's regime have been maintained by the new government.  And all the political processes that happen - and there are the shadows of a democratic system - happen in the context of a military occupation.

I understand that the need for armed personnel in Iraq is now largely because of the actions of terrorists, insurgents, and deaths squads of many and varied origins (we can have the debate about who those military personnel should be and the influence of US and UK forces on this situation at another time), but that does not change the reality: even if the simplistic views of the American right were correct: Iraqis don't have liberty.  Nothing like it.  It is not just because they don't have security (though the two are inevitably linked - if leaving the house is a terrifying ordeal, then you are hardly at liberty) but they do not have political liberty either.

(This is getting tricky to read, isn't it.  Perhaps we need to start a thread, although whether we need a thread on Iraq, I don't know.)


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#47)

by Glass House on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 01:47:24 PM GMT

If you click on the post number (#xx), it widens it out.

I'm curious about what political liberty you think Iraqi's dont have?


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#48)

by doctordunc on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 02:37:02 PM GMT

This article (a bit old now) lists many of the way (by no means an exhaustive list) - I would add restrictions on trade unionism to that, for example.


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#37)

by JR on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 11:47:23 PM GMT

'Bomber Blair'? Dear, dear.


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#50)

by JR on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 11:59:50 PM GMT

doctordunc, some of your above comments are appauling. Saying Blair's war against Saddam was worse than the IRA's terror campaign is bizarre and deeply offensive.


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#51)

by doctordunc on Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 06:07:37 PM GMT

Why?

When I was a kid, at my uncle's house, I was never allowed to pick up the mail or go near the car, and there were guns in every room, because he'd had death threats from the IRA - I don't take it lightly in the slightest.

But I don't think I can adequately express my anger at Blair (and Brown and the rest) for their reckless slaughter in Iraq.  And I refuse to pull my punches on it, and can only offer clarification if anyone has found it offensive.


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#52)

by JR on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 12:33:30 AM GMT

Fine, but I won't pull my punches on my condemnation of McDonnell.

I don't think it's appropriate to bring family backgrounds into this either I must say. I don't think you're dishonest but I have no way of knowing if you're telling the truth or not.


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#53)

by doctordunc on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 06:01:57 PM GMT


Well - true, you can't know if it's true or not, but it would seem an odd thing to lie about, and I'm not generally in the business of so doing.  I merely wanted to personally illustrate a point, but I shall stick to blogosphere anonymity in future if you'd prefer!


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Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#28)

by otware on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 06:13:34 PM GMT

All I know is that at first the public weren't given any information. All we had was Briain's word against Iran's. Obviously it was more likely that Iran was lying, but it was still right to question both sides.


Re: Welcome home! The true story can now be told (#32)

by JR on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 12:06:19 AM GMT

No we didn't. We had the UN, the US, the EU and practically every nation in the civilised world backing the British line. We even produced photographic (and GPS based) evidence to prove our point.

It wasn't just very likely that Iran was lying, it was blantantly obvious to anyone who possesses a brain.


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Welcome home! The true story can now be told | 53 comments (53 topical)