What is the future of the left?

jkitleft Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 12:24:57 PM GMT Print-friendly version Facebook

I have long pondered as to what the future of the left is in the labour party. When i have asked other people as to who in Labour is left-wing anymore, they point to Campaign Group members like Dennis Skinner. Although he is a great parlimentarian, I hate all his talk of a class war, he is a Trotskyite in disguise. The heart and soul of democratic socialism died on two seperate days, May 12th 1994 and August 6th 2005, the days of John Smith and Robin Cooks deaths. After many election losses Labour needed to modernise, but Tony Blair treated Smith's death like an election loss, moving one step too far to the right. the ignorance of the moderate left wingers astounds me. I heard on a seperate thread someone saying Roy Hattersley was part of the Ultra-Left like Benn and Foot; well it was people like Hattersley who saved the party, infact he had the future of Labour in his hands. Had Hattersley defected to the SDP, other soft-left members like Smith and Dewar would have defected, Benn would have become Deputy Leader,m more would have defected and the Alliance would have become the dominant party of the left. But there is no room for people like Hattersley anymore, for Labour is senn as divided into New Labour, a coalition of Blairites and Brownites and the hard-left of people in the Campaign group. Thus Hattersley is put into the latter category for there is no room for the moderate-left winger. And so I ask can we regain this party, to make it one of moderate or democratic socialism?





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What is the future of the left? | 62 comments (62 topical)

Re: What is the future of the left? (#1)

by grimupnorth on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 01:08:58 PM GMT

I have to say, and I'm not being nasty, that your  ignorance is pretty astounding  too. Dennis Skinner a Trotskyite! The very fact he is a  "great Parliamentarian" kind of rules out him being a closet revolutionary.
The only Trotskyite MPs ever elected by Labour were Dave Nellist and Pat Wall, who were  in Militant Tendency. And they may have been Trotskyists but actually they were both extremely hard-working Mps who took a "workers wage" and donated the rest to the labour movement.
Campaign Group kicked off when Tony Benn was defeated as deputy Leader because  several of his colleagues in the  Tribune Group did not vote for him. The  policies advocated by Campaign Group  are all part of the democratic socialist, maionstream left, and largely supported by Labour Party Conference
The only extremism in today's Labour Party is from the right-wing  "New Labour" clique who very successfully carried  out  what Trotsky called "entrism" ie taking over the Party from within. Ironic, really.
BTW Roy Hattersley is not left-wing in the Old Labour sense at all.He is an old-fashioned right-wing Labour man who rightly  despises New Labour.
Next thing you'll be saying he's a Trot as well!  


Re: What is the future of the left? (#9)

by otware on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 06:57:38 PM GMT

Well said. I'd watch out though, the New Labour types are gonna through a fit when they read what you said about Nellist and Wall.


[ Parent ]

Re: What is the future of the left? (#62)

by Mikael on Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 10:19:46 PM GMT

They were outstanding though... especially old Pat!


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#29)

by JamesM on Fri Apr 06, 2007 at 10:04:50 AM GMT

Otware is wrong. As a New Labour type I find your description of Nellist and Wall eccentric but I'm not likely to have a fit about it. Their parasitic presence in the Labour Party was a shame but since then we've had ten lovely years of Tony Blair doing almost everything a New Labour type could have hoped for. In other words, we won and they lost.

But aside from that, you surely missed out Terry Fields.


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#2)

by red flagger on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 02:51:54 PM GMT

There are many 'soft-left' MPs, but they tend not to be as noticed as either the leadership or those further to the left.


Re: What is the future of the left? (#3)

by jkitleft on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 04:09:13 PM GMT

grimupnorth, the only reason why i dislike Skinner is because he goes on about how we should hate the rich, by all means i prefer the Campaign Group to New Labour, i just don't like the difference between Dianne Abbott talking about equality, and Skinner talking about a 'class war'.
And by the way, i spent my whole blog PRAISING Hattersley and his standing up to Blair. My point about Blair moving Labour 'a step to far to the right' is a key one because even the politicians on the 'right-wing' of Labour in the 80's like Healey and Hattersley oppose Blair's policies


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#4)

by jkitleft on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 04:10:41 PM GMT

And grimupnorth, why would i say Hattersley was a trot when i said how he could have defected to the SDP?


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#5)

by jkitleft on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 04:16:36 PM GMT

And i agree that New Labour is far more undemocratic. I would have advocated the non-  Trade Union block vote and OMOV in the 80's, and TGWU allocating their block vote to Healey as their members requested. Blair has been worse however in intervening with Rhodri Morgan, Dennis Canavan, and of course, the piece de resistance, Ken Livingstone, in which the undemocratic block vote was used in Frank Dobson's favour. Dobson, incidently is one of those who i think belongs to the soft-left, it's not that i believe there are no soft-left members/MP's, its just that I believe there is no standed bearer anymore for the soft-left


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#6)

by jkitleft on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 04:19:26 PM GMT

Terry Fiels was also an elected Mp who was a member of Militant, and i praise your views grim, they are the kind of views trying to be supressed by New Labour, i just want more views to be debated on the table


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#7)

by jkitleft on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 04:23:08 PM GMT

Sorry, it should have been Terry Fields. And i meant ignorance about moderate Left-Wingers by some of the blggers who try to place Hattersley in the extremist category. Sorry for the confusion. First prize for who guesses the blogger who tried to shame Hattersley as an ultra-left pin-up. Any guesses? Grimupnorth, i'm sure you can guess who


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#8)

by otware on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 06:56:30 PM GMT

You should put that essay in 1 post lol.


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#10)

by jkitleft on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 07:47:12 PM GMT

i know, i'm not really sure why i did that. I just wanted to clear up that that i was talking of New Labour's ignorance about moderate left-wingers. Sorry for all the confusion. And sorry for breaking down an essay into about 37 parts!


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#11)

by grimupnorth on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 07:54:42 PM GMT

Hattersely an "ultra-left pin up." Despite the fact he  is from a different  wing of the Party, I have always thought Hattersley  has many qualities.Sex appeal not one of them! Perchance JR?????


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#30)

by JamesM on Fri Apr 06, 2007 at 10:16:58 AM GMT

Oh, you beat me to it on Terry Fields. That will teach me for not reading the whole page before replying.

As for suppressing views; do you not think there's a case for saying that those who complain about their views being suppressed are very often those who are incredulous that - their views having been expressed - they remain in a small minority. Not wishing to accept that they may just hold unpopular or untenable views, they claim instead that they are being gagged by some hegemonic force.

The left of the Labour Party isn't being gagged, it's just not a very appealing or attractive proposition.


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#12)

by grimupnorth on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 07:55:55 PM GMT

I was  joking, actually.!


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#13)

by grimupnorth on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 07:59:08 PM GMT

The above post should have referred to Hattersley as "Trot" idea! Thankyou for your  kind response and I agree the soft left (unlike the Campaign Group left)  does not have a   real champion. Robin Cook was of course the  middle ground man. And, much as people try to big up Cruddas, I just don't think he has the gravitas(at least not yet) PS:Forgot about Terry Fields!


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#14)

by jkitleft on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 08:01:45 PM GMT

joking about what? And you are right about who said Hattersley was an ultra-left pin-up! Something said to either yourself or doctordunc abour you two wanting Labour to return to the days of Ultra-Left people like Benn, Foot and Hattersley! Again re-emphasises my (not made clear) point about New Labour's ignorance of moderate Left-wingers


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#15)

by jkitleft on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 08:08:33 PM GMT

Yeah, Peter Hain could split the soft left vote. Hmmmm.....because voting for the war, top-up fees, foundation hospitals, NATS privitisation, benefits cuts, 90 days, the Fire Services bill et al. oh, and being a member of the CND until a few years ago and then voting for Trident renewal, makes you really soft-left doesn't it Peter?! Cruddas doesn't have enough stature in the party yet to be a soft-left standed bearer.


[ Parent ]

Re: What is the future of the left? (#17)

by grimupnorth on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 11:49:45 PM GMT

Oh dear. There was I being conciliatory and yet more mis-information. The idea of Hattersley being Trot clearly absurd. ie I was joking. You  think Benn and Foot were ultra-left?????? What planet are you on.
These two both Parliamentarians, believers  in democracy.
Labour Party intellectuals and utterly admirable. You don't know what ultra-left means.........ultra-lefts (ie SWP, Socilaist Party Scottish Socialist Party) operate outside Parliament in sectarian cliques  and wreck decent attempts by the left to achieve socialist policies within existing Parliamentary structures.Please do a bit more homework.....


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#18)

by grimupnorth on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 11:55:59 PM GMT

On second thoughts maybe misunderstood your post.......it's a bit all  over the place, is there such thing as a moderate left-winger.Discuss. Re Hain: Just think has done brilliant job in Northern Ireland.....ASLEF also nominating him.Perhaps just remembering his  past......


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#16)

by sgthowie on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 11:17:56 PM GMT

Hi JKitleft,

This is a very interesting post and it is good your are facilitating a debate about policy and Labour Party philosophy.

Firstly, I know you are probably sick of hearing this on here but I am supporting John McDonnell for the position of leader. However, though my politics have always been around the Benn/Foot philosophy of the party I did have great admiration for the likes of John Smith and Roy Hattersley.

Both felt the way to achieve socialist aims was through a mixed economy and were not so keen on encouraging public ownership of industry.  However, they DID have a commitment to reducing the gap between rich and poor, increasing public spending and benefits to Swedish levels, a non market publicly owned model of public services and a major increase in workers rights.

I feel that under New Labour the old Labour Right is as disenfrachised as the left.  In fact the traditional right is now on the left.  I think you should consider supporting John.  Gordon Brown has been quoted as saying the US economy is the one he admires the most, he has a constant resistance to reducing working hours as other European countries do, he has promoted private involvement in the public services and we now find in the last week that the gap between rich and poor has grown again putting inequality back to the worst years of Thatcher.  John Smith & Roy Hattersley would rightly be appaled at these developments.  

Yes, there have been some good things like a small but significant increase in public spending, reduced unemployent, a few more rights at work and increased benefits for pensioners and children (although means tested).  However, Gordon Brown like Tony Blair will not reject Thatcherism - he will continue it in a softer version.  We didn't wait eighteen (now twenty eight years) for this.  

Sgt Howie  


Re: What is the future of the left? (#19)

by jkitleft on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 10:55:03 AM GMT

thankyou sgthowie, very informed post. and grim, i was talking about how JR said Foot and Benn were on the Ultra-Left, but following the disenfranchisement of left-wingers in Labour since 1994, Benn is by far, one of the most sensible people in the party. Sorry for the confusion (again), but I do not think that Foot and Benn are part of the ultra-left, those were JR's words, not mine.


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#20)

by jkitleft on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 11:00:34 AM GMT

why is ASLEF nominating Hain? Anyway i think a serious discussion about left-wing views in the party are needed. I think even though John Smith hailed from the right of the party, he was most admired by the left, because he listened to what they had to say, and I think his Cabinet would have been a balance of left and right. Blair's Cabinet originally was a balance left and right, but over a period of a couple of years, he slowly got rid of the them. He didn't listen to the left, people like Gavin Strang, David Clark et al. were just there as symbolic figures


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#21)

by jkitleft on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 11:01:49 AM GMT

good point about the Old Labour right now being on the left, sgthowie.


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#23)

by grimupnorth on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 02:43:27 PM GMT

Lefties in the Cabinet! There was Clare Short, too, but again bit of a sop really. And of course Robin Cook .But never anyone hard left. By way of contrast, Even Wilson  had Tony Benn in the Cabinet......a sign  of how far we have travelled .Even the idea is almost surreal thse days......


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#25)

by sgthowie on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 04:43:16 PM GMT

Thanks for all the comments.  The party really needs to put to bed the ghost of 1992.  Both Blair & Brown became prodominent in the party in the late 80's and early 90's and witnessed the four general election defeats.  Despite the fact that issues like the breakaway SDP and Falklands war helped Thatcher there response to this was 'we need to be more like the Tories'.

That makes them yesterday's men in my view unlike McDonnell who is putting forward interesting views about promoting public ownership but doing it in a new way.  For example, having it run democratically by workers, consumers and eleceted representatives.  Call it New Labour if you like he, he.  McDonnell does recognise the failings of the old nationalised industries and what's a popular form of socialism and public ownership promoted.  

Alot of those who voted for Thatcher and Major have either changed their views or have passed away.  Come the next election it will be nearly 20 years since the defeat in 1992 which New Labour still seems to be as relevant today by avoiding promoting socialist policies.  By keeping this agenda we are alienating our natural support such as trade unionists, pensioners and students etc.

Furthermore, McDonnell's policies are likely to benefit the middle classes and not penalise them.  Tuition fees cost middle class parents often over 10,000 pounds a year.  The middle class would benefit from a rise in the basic state pension also.  One supreme weakness of New Labour is how they are scared of going after the top 5%, many of whom acquire their wealth at the expense of the hard graft of the majority who are the wealth producers.

If McDonnell gets on the ballot (which it is looking more and more like he will) there could well be a shock  


[ Parent ]

Re: What is the future of the left? (#22)

by jkitleft on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 11:20:00 AM GMT

Also, i don't think Cameron's Tories are gaining that much support, I think the seats he will win could be down to traditional Labour voters staying at home. Why? Because Labour have never had to deal with two leaders from the right-wing of the party in a row. Many traditional supporters might not know who to vote for, and could stay at home. If traditional voters do turn out, it could be to vote for third-parties who could likely win, e.g. Green Party in Brighton Pavillion. This is why we need a discussion about left-wing views in the Labour Party, we need to incorporate them with other views.


Re: What is the future of the left? (#24)

by jkitleft on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 03:16:20 PM GMT

But grim, Benn wasn't part of the hard left in those days, more part of the mainstream left. Apparently some of the more hard-left in the 70's didn't vote for Benn in the 1981 deputy leadership contest, because when in Wilson/Callaghan's Cabinets, he wasn't championing their cause.


Re: What is the future of the left? (#45)

by grimupnorth on Sat Apr 07, 2007 at 11:59:55 AM GMT

No, that's not so. By 1981 Benn  was the  hard left candidate.There WERE people much further to the left (ie Militant) but they supported  him too. Trust me, I was there.....


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#47)

by jkitleft on Sat Apr 07, 2007 at 12:03:20 PM GMT

i didn't say he wasn't part of the hard-left in 1981, i said he wasn't in the 70's, which is why people like Janey Buchan MEP didn't vote for Benn, as she felt he was attacking the Callaghan government on all the things he voted for


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#26)

by jkitleft on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 06:01:54 PM GMT

good points sgthowie, like i pointed out in a previous comment, Cameron's Tories aren't gaining that much support. By going further to the right on Education Reforms and Trident, the Tories supported us. This helps the argument that there is no difference between Labour and the Tories, and Cameron can say to those who hold such views on the Education reforms and Trident 'Why support Labour when you can support us?'. This brings out Tory voters, it doesn't convert Labour or Lib Dems to the Tories, AND positions on these issues makes traditional Labour voters stay at home.


Re: What is the future of the left? (#27)

by jkitleft on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 06:09:33 PM GMT

whats more (god i go on), for all the talk that parties have to rely on Middle England to win an election, the public admire conviction. Does the Labour cabinet have any conviction? Well, Margaret Beckett used to be Benn's chief cheerleader (as did Patricia Hewitt) and shouted down all people disagreeing with Benn, Hain, Blair, Brown used to be members of CND, and voted for renewing Trident, and the list goes on....and on....and on.....and on....


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#28)

by jkitleft on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 09:34:49 PM GMT

I forgot. Blears campaigned against the abolition of Clause IV. Her idol is Barbara Castle. Such conviction.......


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#31)

by jkitleft on Fri Apr 06, 2007 at 12:05:07 PM GMT

James M, it is a good case you're making, and i thank you for not throwing a fit about Nellist and Pat Wall (although their not my favourites either). However in the 80's many on the right of the Labour Party found it hard to get their point across on the powerful NEC. I'm not saying we have to nationalise everything that moves, but i'm not saying that we should privatise everything that moves either. I'm calling for the rightful balance of left and right in the party. Like I mentioned, John Smith didn't always agree with the left, but he listened to them. I'm not saying there has to be a left-wing agenda, but there needs to be a balance of left and right


Re: What is the future of the left? (#32)

by JamesM on Fri Apr 06, 2007 at 12:33:35 PM GMT

I think that's reasonable depending on what we mean by the left of the Party. I don't say this to be gratuitously provocative, but I think there should be absolutely no compromise with the left of the party as represented by Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell etc.

But there clearly are MPs to the left of Tony Blair who are listened to and respected. You mentioned the obvious example of Robin Cook already, but John Denham recently made a thoughtful contribution to the Trident debate. I personally think he was completely wrong, but the point is that he wasn't sneered at by the front bench or denounced as a trot.

The future for the left of the party is not really for people like me, I have little sympathy for it. But I would think that a good start would be for it to cease blaming its current weakness on others.


[ Parent ]

Re: What is the future of the left? (#33)

by jkitleft on Fri Apr 06, 2007 at 01:07:06 PM GMT

To be honest i don't think a cabinet which is a coalition of people like Lynne Jones and then people like John Reid would work. But think back to 1997. Blair's cabinet had people like David Clark, Gavin Strang, Robin Cook, Clare Short, Frank Dobson, Mo Mowlam, Chris Smith and Ron Davies. Even non-cabinet positions were given to people like Peter Kilfoyle, Michael Meacher, Tony Lloyd, Tony Banks, Mark Fisher, Frank Field and John Denham. This is the balance i'm talking about. Now the government can boast Dave Anderson (Campaign Group member) who is a PPS, yet has voted for education reforms, trident, and 90 days. That's it. Could there not be a greater balance?


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#34)

by doctordunc on Fri Apr 06, 2007 at 01:16:19 PM GMT


"Absolutely not compromise" with elected Labour MPs... Mad.


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#35)

by JR on Fri Apr 06, 2007 at 01:57:46 PM GMT

I think there should be absolutely no compromise with the left of the party as represented by Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell etc.

Absolutely agree. I have nothing in common with people like that. Their views just seem so extreme and out-of-touch, I find it hard to believe anyone can take them seriously.

But since their influence is already incredibly low in the party, it's not really too much of a worry.

To sum up, I think once the leadership elections are over, there will be no future for the left as they will have nothing to hope for anymore. Brown will act radically New Labour in order to try and stop Cameron - the left won't get a look in.

Wouldn't surprise me if we see lots of leftie MP's not bothering to stand again at the next election for Labour (a la Galloway and Claire Short). Not necessarily a bad thing in my view.


[ Parent ]

Re: What is the future of the left? (#36)

by jkitleft on Fri Apr 06, 2007 at 07:16:32 PM GMT

to be honest my article isn't about making Ann Cryer Home Secretary, and Jeremy Corbyn Foreign Secretary. Actually, most of the comments prove my point that Labour is now divided into New Labour and the Hard-Left. I'm talking about Roy Hattersley or John Smith's form of socialism. That's what Labour needs. The division of hard-left and a 'step too far to the right' factions in Labour makes New Labour supporters place Dennis Healey in the hard-left category for supporting the scrapping of Trident, and Campaign Group supporters compare Blair to a neo-con. Although Blair has taken Labour a step too far to the right, I don't believe he is a neo-con. These are exactly the kind of divisions i am talking about. We need communication between left and right. So before I am denounced as a member of the SWP by the right, and told i might as well be a member of the 1922 committee by the left, let's not have mud-slinging matches, let's have debate. Let's encourage policies that can keep all Labour members happy and the public happy.


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#40)

by JR on Sat Apr 07, 2007 at 12:21:09 AM GMT

No, I wouldn't accuse you of being a socialist worker - you seem more moderate and sensible than other lefties, which is good to see.

But I think there are two very clear divisions in the party. You say we should have a Hattersley / Smith form of socialism to unite us. But even that would be highly unacceptable. I still see people like that as too far to the left, as well as Dennis Healey I must say.

I understand that some lefties are more extreme than others and Healey is a moderate. But from a New Labour perspective, any move back to John Smith type of leadership or policies would be a step backwards and would not be acceptable. So I think it's impossible to truly unite us as one.


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#48)

by grimupnorth on Sat Apr 07, 2007 at 12:05:42 PM GMT

!All Labour members happy! ?????In my  many years  in the Party, never possible. And never will be. I think you  mean well. But your ideas are all  over the place.
Jeremy Corbyn Foreign Secretary?????? Bring it on!!!!!! Jeremy is one of the most principled MPs I have ever met. Sadly, doesn't get you  very far upthe greasyNewlabour pole.......


[ Parent ]

Re: What is the future of the left? (#41)

by doctordunc on Sat Apr 07, 2007 at 10:06:30 AM GMT


Well, fortunately, your hope is nonsense.  Whatever happens in the leadership election - and obviously I am supporting John McDonnell - the left will be re-energised by the campaign and will be much more focused and assertive in the next phase, whatever that phase may be.

It's interesting that you consider yourself outnumbered on here.  I've seen left blogs referring to going to Labourhome to find out what the 'right' of the party are thinking...  I guess both you and they are over-reacting to the basic shock of stumbling against what other bits of the party are like (the bits you normally manage to avoid!)


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#52)

by JR on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 02:35:54 PM GMT

the left will be re-energised by the campaign and will be much more focused and assertive in the next phase, whatever that phase may be

Hmm, I doubt that very much. The left will become more frustrated than ever because despite their best efforts, they know they're not making the slightest impact. So if McDonnell and Cruddas don't even get the 45 nominations then the left will be re-energised and focused will it?

The idea that labourhome represents what the 'right' is thinking is laughable!


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#54)

by doctordunc on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 02:54:32 PM GMT


I don't know what Cruddas' centre-to-centre-right supporters will make of all this, JR?  Where have they gone, anyway?


[ Parent ]

Re: What is the future of the left? (#55)

by JR on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 06:27:45 PM GMT

Well you tell me! I understand Cruddas is nowhere near a leftie compared to McDonnell, but all the lefties on here keep mentioning them together as some sort of dream ticket!

Cruddas doesn't seem to have many supporters at all given recent polls anyway.


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#58)

by doctordunc on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 01:21:23 PM GMT


Well they aren't a 'ticket'.  I haven't decided who I'm voting for for deputy yet.  I'm waiting for a candidate to convince me :-)  Cruddas isn't doing too badly, but there are a couple of other contenders.


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#59)

by JR on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 09:46:01 PM GMT

Who else tickles your fancy?


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#60)

by doctordunc on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 10:11:53 PM GMT


At the present time I'm basically torn between Cruddas, Benn and Hain (occasionally I suggest Hazel Blears, but I think I'm joking!)  While on one level I respect Benn for not backtracking on policies he's voted for, it does make it harder for me to support him, even though - in a less ideologically-charged time - he would definitely be my choice: he's the best candidate in the field in terms of ability, charisma, etc.  Hain is making quite a play for a leftish vote... As I say, at the moment Cruddas is doing the best job for capturing the likes of me, but then he does have the freedom of not being in the Cabinet, and that obviously helps.


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#61)

by JR on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 12:34:15 AM GMT

Yes, I'm sure it will be quite an ideologically charged election.


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#46)

by grimupnorth on Sat Apr 07, 2007 at 12:02:43 PM GMT

Fantastic, JR. No lefties left.?  If you think  this all finishes  with the leadership election you are in for an almighty shock.


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#53)

by JR on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 02:36:30 PM GMT

Lefties won't go, but they'll be severely weakened and disillusioned.


[ Parent ]

Re: What is the future of the left? (#37)

by Curlew on Fri Apr 06, 2007 at 09:48:05 PM GMT

JK,

I think the problem you're having is that there's no way you can sit on the fence on this one.

Call it soft-left, mid-left etcetera, you don't have it at the moment because the party has only two main factions - (1) those MP's who are looking to their career and (2) those who are sticking to their ideals.

I prefer the latter, I know they won't change.  Whereas the party I elected has changed because it has surrounded itself with those of group 1.

As long as we have a representative from each camp in the "upcoming" then the debate will kick-off and who knows what will happen.


Re: What is the future of the left? (#38)

by jkitleft on Fri Apr 06, 2007 at 10:07:53 PM GMT

My point exactly. I have said many times about Labour being divided into hard-left/New Labour, or as you put it, career politicians/politicians with conviction.


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#39)

by JR on Sat Apr 07, 2007 at 12:16:18 AM GMT

because the party has only two main factions - (1) those MP's who are looking to their career and (2) those who are sticking to their ideals.

Pathetic. Why do you find it so hard to believe that New Labour people have principles and ideals? I certainly do and that's why I write honestly on here and don't give in to the left despite always being severely outnumbered.


[ Parent ]

Re: What is the future of the left? (#42)

by jkitleft on Sat Apr 07, 2007 at 10:50:38 AM GMT

maybe some of them do have ideals. but as i said earlier Blears was against abolishing Clause IV, now she's New Labour. Beckett launched attacks on anyone wanting to compromise with Benn, now she's New Labour. Peter Hain, CND member until a few years ago, now he's New Labour. I definently think that there is a misguided view about Healey, he could have defected, he chose not to, and reformed the party from within. Had he defected, more defections would have followed, Alliance would have been the dominant party of the left. And, JR, your views would be in the minority of the party today, had Healey defected. All i'm saying is that debate should be encouraged, and if Healey's views were too far to the left, then the party wouldn't  hold the views it has today. Think about that.


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#43)

by jkitleft on Sat Apr 07, 2007 at 11:11:03 AM GMT

JR, i know you may think a John Smith approach may be a step backwards, but like I said, modernising was needed after election losses, but Blair treated Smith's death like an election loss. After Black Wednesday, party infighting over Europe, the public would have voted in Labour even if it had a dog for a leader. Party infighting is a key word there. This is why i think we need poitions that suit all Labour party members. Because New Labour has all control over the party, it intesifies the battles in Labour. The same would be true if the Hard-Left had all control over the party. The 7 september resignations, fighting between Blair and Brown, confusion as to when Blair will step down, this is what could lose us the next election, not policies.


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#44)

by doctordunc on Sat Apr 07, 2007 at 11:54:26 AM GMT


But the 7 September stuff and the fighting between Blair and Brown has nothing to do with differences over policies either: they're all New Labour; it's half about personalities and half about tactics.  If what you're arguing for his a more consensual, more 'broad church' approach, then I completely agree with you.  But if you think that having Ann Cryer in the Cabinet (which was one of your earlier illustrations) would be quite unthinkable, then I don't think you're being broad enough or consensual enough (Ann Cryer is hardly an extremist!)  I mean, I doubt she's any desire to be in a Cabinet, all I'm saying is that she shouldn't be ruled out just because she's on the left.  I would want to see David Miliband and Hilary Benn (for example) playing key roles in the next (McDonnell) Cabinet, because I think they're both very able (I might not have included them both in my 'fantasy cabinet' I published on here some time back, but in my 'real cabinet' they'd be there).  It might be that some would find it hard to serve in a Cabinet led from a political position greatly different from their own, and of course, they would have to resign if they couldn't follow collective responsibilty - but I do think that a broad church should literally mean that, rather than hoping that everyone (left and right) would happily 'live with' a sort of Compassite, Cruddasite, 'centre-left'.


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#49)

by jkitleft on Sat Apr 07, 2007 at 12:07:17 PM GMT

some good arguments. maybe it doesn't have to be a Cruddasite position, maybe it just has to be one of including more factions of the Labour party, who don't fit the Blairite or Brownite description.


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#50)

by grimupnorth on Sat Apr 07, 2007 at 12:07:30 PM GMT

Denis  Healey LEFT???????  No!!!!!!!


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#51)

by jkitleft on Sat Apr 07, 2007 at 12:12:29 PM GMT

I don't like Corbyn's position on the Tamil Tigers, I think Healey is left compared to the Labour politicians of today. I said numerous times that Healey was on the right of the party in the 80's, and it is hypocritical to call him left-wing, when he made sure that New Labour positions were represented in Labour today, (don't take this to mean that I like the New Labour positions)


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Re: What is the future of the left? (#56)

by jkitleft on Sun Apr 08, 2007 at 06:38:35 PM GMT

Disollusioned is the right word for how the left will feel, JR. And let me tell you, it will hurt Labour at the polls, I think traditional supporters will stay at home if there is not more left-wing influence, because Labour has not had two leaders from the right-wing in a row (I know you could point out Smith was on the right, as is Blair, but by today's standards, Smith is more left-wing). The more left-wing will be diasppointed that there has been no left-wing influence for a long time, and could stay at home.


Re: What is the future of the left? (#57)

by JR on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:03:57 AM GMT

But I don't understand why they'd stay at home though because although they would say Brown is on the right, surely they would realise that Cameron is even further to the right? They must realise that it's in their best interests to have a New Labour government rather than a Tory one?


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What is the future of the left? | 62 comments (62 topical)