Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors

Is it not time to give them there final warning?

I say yes, they've done this not just once too many times, they've done it TWICE.

An act of war is this, a completely illegal one at that.




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Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#1)

So rather than trying to find ways of getting these kids home and alive, you're all for sending more out to join them and die, kill Iranians while you're at it, lose the last vetiges of welcome amongst the Shia population in Iraq, and raise the threat of a regional conflict, costing the lives of people in several countries?

War is always the worst answer.  It terrifies me how quickly people leap to this 'last resort'.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#2)

Not at all, I say we get our heroes home first.

This is not the first time it's happened.

They are trying to humiliate our country and we cannot allow our troops to become their pinatas.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#3)

Are you proposing military action against Iran?

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#4)

Not over this specifically, but I propose giving them an ultimatum with regards there nuclear programme.

As for this crisis, we'll see what happens.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#5)

Whilst I agree that the Iranians are really pushing their luck, the time for a 'final warning' is nowhere near upon us.

We must exhaust diplomacy before we consider anymore military action. Especially after what's happened with Iraq, the public won't trust us to go the war with Iran unless it's the absolute last measure.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#7)

The iranians have flat out refused to come to reason.

They fund terror across the globe. They've refused deals to HAND them nuclear power.

They have made clear NO UN action will result in a change of course.

They are run by islamo facists, we must at very least take a far tougher approach.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#6)

That slimy shit ahmedinijad is obviously doing this to try and get a rise out of the coalition forces! He knows he can't win, not with US troops stationed in literally every country surrounding Iran...but he knows for sure that an attack on Iran will quite possible create a muslim uprising all over the world. Think of 7/7, but over and over again.

So I seriously hope that this situation can be defused diplomatically through pressure from western governments and the UN, not through the mother of all wars.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#8)

And think of hiroshima over and over again, except, this time its Tel Aviv and London and every other free nation on the planet.

We cannot trust these islamo facists.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#9)

Oh come off it! If they are trying to make a bomb it'll take them years! And even then it won't be some fancy Trident system - but something just like they dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, old technology. But the key difference is that Iran is not armed to the teeth with B52s. How do you propose they bomb Israel? The only way I can see is by loading the bomb onto a lorry and driving it into Jerusalem.

I agree that Iran poses a threat. They are a rogue state headed by an evil maniac. But I seriously doubt their ability to cause nuclear war in the immeditate future.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#10)

So we should sit back and wait for it?

Estimates range from 3 to about 6 years.

There is a point in there known as the point of no return. That is not too far down the road.

History teaches us not wait for these threats to materialize. We must learn the lessons of the past.

And we also know you only need a relatively small ammount of plutonium to create a dirty bomb, a nuclear suitcase.

You know the record of the iranians and terror support, should they become desperate enough, god knows what they'd do.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#11)

And thats why we need to move now to negotiate with Iran and try and sedate their rabid leader. What we don't need is "Iran will nuke London in 45 minutes" plastered over the tabloid rags. Scaremongering and an over-eagerness to engage in war will only lead to disaster - more terrorism. I agree something has to be done, but war is not the answer!

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#12)

I jsut can't ever see you saying war will be the answer.

We HAVE TRIED negotiation, its failing.

Its not scaremongering, its fact, the iranians sponsor terrorists, they're complicit in the murder of our troops in basra and they have a clandestine nuclear programme that could easily by exported to their terrorist allies.

I'm not saying war now, I'm saying we give them a final warning.

Clearly you have not been following this crisis, we've offered them extremely fair deals.

They've drawn their line in the sand, it's about time we drew ours.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#13)

You think terrorism is bad now? Just wait until we attack Iran! Sure, it might stop some violence in Iraq because the Iranians will be incapable of supporting the terrorists there. But the terrorist acts wil be commited in Britain and America on a much larger scale.

If we must use military action as a last reosrt, then for god's sake just bomb their nuclear facilities! Just don't invade them and risk turning yet more muslims against us.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#14)

I commented on this about a month ago - our intelligence on Iran seems to be even poorer than it was on Iraq. To top it off, Iran has hardened and buried many nuclear facilities in a way that would make them difficult to destroy.

Anything short of a full-scale invasion will accomplish nothing, in Iran. Essentially, we can't afford to send a million soldiers over. We've only got eight thousand in Iraq, and we're complaining so loudly. Can you imagine a draft that calls up eight hundred thousand young men and women?

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#18)

"our intelligence on Iran seems to be even poorer than it was on Iraq"

That is simply wrong.

With Iran, we already HAVE a concrete nuclear programme, its spread across the country, That is not beyond dispute.

Coupled with that, the UN itself has seen documents in Iran that in their words served NO OTHER purpose apart from the manufacture of nuclear weapons.

Wjhy does the worlds largest natural gas producer require this anyway?

Why have they refused safe deals that would give them nuclear power? Supported by the Americans?

A rogue terrorist regimes like the Iranians cannot be trusted with this technology.

"Anything short of a full-scale invasion will accomplish nothing, in Iran."

Again, that is completely wrong.

The programme can be taken out by an intensive air campaign, which is the plan.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#21)

It is somewhat ironic that a war with Iran would be the final nail in the coffin of our government, Bush's administration and quite likely cause an even greater surge in terrorist activities - when there is actually far more justification to go to war with Iran than there was with Iraq.

The way I see it there are 4 options:

  1. Try to negotiate with Iran.
  2. Tactically strike Iran's nuclear facilities.
  3. Take out Ahmedinejad.
  4. Invade Iran

If Jag Singh is correct, then getting rid of the nuclear facilities by an airstrike is not an option. Invading Iran would udoubtedly lead to disaster because the public would not support it (we would need vast numbers of troops), it would greatly increase instability and there would be a surge in terrorist atrocities in the region and in Europe and America,. This leaves either deposing Ahmedinejad by sponsoring resistance groups and by secret service action, or continuing to negotiate.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#24)

Airstrikes are an option. He was completely wrong in his assertions on that issue.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#26)

Unfortunately Loz, many intelligence agencies have confirmed that Iran has hardened and buried many nuclear facilities in a way that would make them difficult to destroy.

I didn't say anything about Iran not having nuclear capabilities - the intel (or lack thereof) I mentioned referred to the battle-readiness and status of their Basij and Qods forces. Beyond that, we don't have intel on how far along their nuclear weapons technology has come since we last had access to it.

Assassinating Ahmedinejad is an active option for all Western intelligence agencies, but the repercussions would be massive, especially since Iranian assets (spies) are known to operate within the EU.

You're not looking at this from an asymmetrical warfare strategic perspective - that is, the Persian military won't just be fighting with guns - they have an active navy and air force, and their special forces are driven by the dogmatic ideology of religion. Throw in the plausibility of bio/chemical warfare, and you're really walking into a trap.

And let's not kid ourselves. We'd need to send about 500,000 men and women to Iran. We're already complaining about 5000 in Iraq - there's no way we can handle those kinds of numbers, unless we piggyback on the Americans.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#29)

I agree completely! Iran is NOT a walk over like Iraq. They will fight back, and they WILL definetly officially sanction terrorist acts against Europe. End of story.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#32)

And we will officially flatten their terrorist infrastructure if they dare.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#36)

That's laughable. Israel tried to flatten Hezbollah and look what happened there! What makes you think we would fare any better?

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#37)

They tried to, and because of their action, hezbollah is no longer a problem on there border firing hundreds of missiles a month in. Problme solved, 1-0 israel.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#16)

"You think terrorism is bad now? Just wait until we attack Iran! Sure, it might stop some violence in Iraq because the Iranians will be incapable of supporting the terrorists there. But the terrorist acts wil be commited in Britain and America on a much larger scale. "

We weren't in iraq on 9/11 so what's your excuse there?

They will attack us EITHER WAY.

You just don't seem to understand the terrorist threat, and to top it off, you quite awfully tar the islamic world as some terror hungry rabble ready to strap on a bomb and kill innocent people.

Terrorists will use ANY excuse and ware plotting to terrorise no matter what we do.

"If we must use military action as a last reosrt, then for god's sake just bomb their nuclear facilities! Just don't invade them and risk turning yet more muslims against us. "

I agree with you, I absolutely do not favour an invasion and nobody is talking about anything of the kind.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#19)

I resent being accused of islamophobia. Do you deny that the war in Iraq has increased instability in the region and has made large sections of the Muslim world angry with the West? It is widely accepted that there is  correlation between military action in the middle east and terrorist attacks.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#20)

That is not quite what I am saying.

It just surprises me that we automatically assume muslims are going to bomb innocent people because we attack the Iranian nuclear programme.

My point is, the people that do this are evil people, they will attack us regardless.

"Do you deny that the war in Iraq has increased instability in the region and has made large sections of the Muslim world angry with the West? It is widely accepted that there is  correlation between military action in the middle east and terrorist attacks. "

To answer your question yes it has, but I ask you, do you just think its ordinary reasoned people that are some how becoming radicalised by us and then targetting innocent people?

I simply cannot accept that, these people were.

Just look at the 7/7 bombings, the leader Mohammad Sidique Khan was active ling before iraq. He was visiting camps in pakistan and afganistan BEFORE iraq.

So why just we blame iraq for his actions?

These people will use ANY excuse for their actions.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#22)

I never meant that all muslims are becomming radicalised and turning into terrorists as a direct result of the Iraq war. I'm sorry if what I said lead you to think that. What I meant was that these wars make the west look like monsters (especially the Americans, e.g Abu Ghraib). I believe that this DOES radicalise SOME sections of the more extreme sections of the muslim community. The vast majority of muslims do NOT fall into this catagory, but some do - and they seem to be very vocal. So these radicalsed muslims probably would have started out being somewhat indifferent to the terrorists, but now support them in what they see as a war against western imperialism.

In short, I believe that Iraq is a factor in terrorist attacks, and the war on Iraq has greatly hindered the War on Terrorism. As such, I believe that any war on Iraq would have similar effects.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#23)

" ...any war on Iraq would have similar effects."

This should be Iran, sorry.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#25)

"What I meant was that these wars make the west look like monsters (especially the Americans, e.g Abu Ghraib). I believe that this DOES radicalise SOME sections of the more extreme sections of the muslim community."

But surely these people are the sort of people to be involved in this type of activity in the first place?

A radical is a radical regardless. They will use any excuse to justify there actions. The case I gave you about one of the 7/7 bombers is a prime example, yet a false myth is perpetrated to make it appear as if WE caused this 'family man and teacher' to murder 50+ of his own citizens.

"The vast majority of muslims do NOT fall into this catagory, but some do - and they seem to be very vocal. So these radicalsed muslims probably would have started out being somewhat indifferent to the terrorists, but now support them in what they see as a war against western imperialism."

Indeed, and surely then the blame lies with the extremistd who are floating the propaganda to prescribe this as some sort of a 'crusade'?

"In short, I believe that Iraq is a factor in terrorist attacks, and the war on Iraq has greatly hindered the War on Terrorism. As such, I believe that any war on Iraq would have similar effects."

I would simply say that these people will be about regardless. I therefore believe that appeasing them would be an almighty mistake.

Yes we should be worried, and yes we should consider the implications of action, but by the same cause we must consider the consequences of inaction.

These people aren't going away, and sooner or later they will attack us again for no good reasons.

In that scenario, I don't think we are left with any choice but a proactive policy to confront the extremists before greater threats than bus bombings materialize.

Its a grim choice, I know, but I just cannot see any other way out of it.

The islamo facists cannot be bought to reason, and acts like the illegal act of war on our troops should only really solidify the position of our government in taking them to task over their illegal activities from their nuclear programme to terror support on a global scale.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#15)

It's not often when I agree with JR but on this occasion he is correct.  I would hope that those people who are calling for military action will do the honest principled thing themselves and offer their services to the armed forces.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#17)

My family has done its fair share of military service.

But your arguement is one of the bullshit emtotive bellows that the far left come out with.

Either way we're fucked, if they get a nuke, we'll have to fight, but my plan is to prevent that in the first place via tactical strikes on their nuclear facilities.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#27)

These tactical strikes you speak of sound so easy - but they're not, like I mentioned previously.

  1. We don't know for sure where all their nuclear facilities are, and by extension

  2. We don't know for sure how strong these facilities are (underground, mobile, etc)

Sure, we have intel on some of these facilities, but leaving even one available for Iran to utilise would mean a retaliatory attack on Israel, or friendly forces in Iraq or Afghanistan, or American bases in the Middle East.

We'd have to wipe ALL their capabilities off the map (this is an effectiveness issue - as President Bush so eloquently put it, they have to be right 1% of the time, and we have to be right 100% of the time).

The odds are against us.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#28)

To respond to your points:

  1. We know where the main sites are. We have a list of dozens of sites in which the UN has been around most, so there is a degree of knowledge about what to target. That really wouldn't be a problem.

  2. A sensible point, and you are right, many are underground, but the US does have the technology to reach these targets. The likely downside to that is the level of likely civilian casualties.

By targetting the central sites, the other conversion and production sites would be rendered useles.

The question would then be to the Russians, do you help them build this again?

I think the answer to that is no.

It would take over a decade for them to get back to the same point even with Russian help. Without it, much longer.

In either scenario it doesn't compensate for the reaction of the real leaders of Iran who may well back down, the Iranian people if we're really lucky will halt them altogether.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#30)

Are you aware of the vast numbers the Iranian military have?!?! The British Army has approx 108,000 fullt-time troops. The Iranian Special Forces alone have 125,000. 350,000 regular army troops, and many many more reservists. They could have hundreds and hundreds of thousands of military and officially sanctioned paramilitary troops, not including terrorists active in other parts of the world. Invading Iran would be the single most disastrous act in the history of the human race. From Turkey to Pakistan - thousands of miles of pure anarchy.

The fact is that Britain would probably have to call-up a draft. That would NOT go down well with the population.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#31)

Otware is talking nonsense. The Iranian military is no where near as well devloped as ours.

The middle eastern curse of soviet junk makes them little more than a big group of people tagged as an army.

The Iranians would be destroyed if they tried anything, with nukes if needs be.

But that is an absolute worst cases scenario.

Once again, you are making the case of inaction, no doubt you would have said the same thing when Saddam was developing nukes at the laste 80s.

What is an even greater threat is that the Iranians could aquire a nuclear bomb.

We cannot allow that threat to materialise.

The most disasterous and illogical act in the history of the human race would be to listen to appeasers like you that would allow Iran to gain a nuclear bomb.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#33)

If promoting negotiations instead of going in and causing more havoc is considered to be a bad idea then god save the human race.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#34)

And where exaclty have you been for the past three years while those negotiations have been taking place?

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#35)

Negotiations are ongoing. Just because we haven't had much success so far doesn't mean that we should abandon hope of a peaceful solution. Maybe we should give the new sanctions a chance, eh?

Even Russia, Iran's only 'friend' in the security council, voted for sanctions. I doubt Iran will get very far with their nuclear ambitions if they can't get the help of Russia. And I expect other western countries will be keepng a close eye on Russia to make sure they aren't secretly trying to help the Iranians.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#38)

"Negotiations are ongoing. Just because we haven't had much success so far doesn't mean that we should abandon hope of a peaceful solution. Maybe we should give the new sanctions a chance, eh? "

Of course we should, but it sounds to me you are ruling out military action altogether, or at best will wait until the vry latest, which will be too late.

"Even Russia, Iran's only 'friend' in the security council, voted for sanctions. I doubt Iran will get very far with their nuclear ambitions if they can't get the help of Russia. And I expect other western countries will be keepng a close eye on Russia to make sure they aren't secretly trying to help the Iranians. "

Russia has been voting with us for some time and still helping them with their programme, although because of iranian non payment, they've been more in our corner recently.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#39)

I am not ruling out military action as a last resort. I may be opposed to war on principle, but I'm not so stupid that I'd allow the Iranians to invade us.

And I reckon that Russia would not want to give the Iranians full suport in their aims. It would not do for Russia to be isolated like Iran. At the end of the day, the Russians would probably sell-out the Iranians.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#40)

"I am not ruling out military action as a last resort. I may be opposed to war on principle, but I'm not so stupid that I'd allow the Iranians to invade us."

Ok let me ask you this, would you sanction military action in the event the iranians continue to disobey UN orders and reach a point in their nuclear programme where they could build nuclear weapons?

"And I reckon that Russia would not want to give the Iranians full suport in their aims. It would not do for Russia to be isolated like Iran. At the end of the day, the Russians would probably sell-out the Iranians."

Who knows, we though we had the implicit support of them back in 03, but they sold our war plans to the iraqis.

I don't trust them.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#43)

If a valid case was made that they posed a definite threat to us or our allies, and there was true UN backing and we had the support of other EU countries I would say that war would be an option. But only as a last resort if the Iranians continue with their schemes, or if there are new deveopments. However, I do not believe for a moment that they will reach that stage in their nuclear programme.

I don't trust the Russians either, but helping another country to develop nuclear weapons is not in their best interests. They would be very foolish if they thought that they could control the Iranian nuclear programme.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#44)

"If a valid case was made that they posed a definite threat to us or our allies"

What about what we already know.

That the UN has seen documents that could only be used for nukes, that the iranian president has repeatedly spoken of the destruction of israel, that the iranians have financed (in some cases openly) terrorism across the globe, that the iranians have twice committed an act of war against our country by illegally kidnapping our service folks, that the iranians have almost certainly been arming terrorists killing our forces and thousands of iraqis?

"and there was true UN backing and we had the support of other EU countries I"

I think thats an irresponsible position. The Europeans more than likely out of fear would never sanction such action and the chinese would almost certainly veot.

"I don't trust the Russians either, but helping another country to develop nuclear weapons is not in their best interests. They would be very foolish if they thought that they could control the Iranian nuclear programme."

The russians failed to ask questions of the iranians, such as why one of the worlds leading oil and natural gas suppliers would all of a sudden need nuclear power.

The Russians don't want them to have nukes I agree, but the Russians would rather them have nukes thanus take action,m sad as it is.

Re: Islamo Facists illegaly sieze our sailors (#41)

"I am not ruling out military action as a last resort. I may be opposed to war on principle, but I'm not so stupid that I'd allow the Iranians to invade us."

Ok let me ask you this, would you sanction military action in the event the iranians continue to disobey UN orders and reach a point in their nuclear programme where they could build nuclear weapons?

"And I reckon that Russia would not want to give the Iranians full suport in their aims. It would not do for Russia to be isolated like Iran. At the end of the day, the Russians would probably sell-out the Iranians."

Who knows, we though we had the implicit support of them back in 03, but they sold our war plans to the iraqis.

I don't trust them.