Charles Clarke is wrong about NHS charging.

According to Charles Clarke Labour should consider extending charging to more areas of the NHS.

Clarke believes that as the economy's growth begins to slow down and a future Labour government seeks to ensure continued free provision of core services such as operations and emergency treatment, then we must be ready to consider asking patients to pay for services like rehabilitation.

Whatever the merits of market mechanisms in the NHS, there is a growing suspicion on the part of staff and public that the increasing use of the private sector in the NHS is not actually about improved efficiency through competition but simply about saving money at a time when the government is determined to cut public spending. Mr Clarke's intervention will only heighten this suspicion.

Labour is beginning to get into unnecessary trouble on what should be home territory - it is not hard to imagine how Mr Clarke's comments will be used by our opponents in a bid to suggest that the NHS is no longer safe in Labour's hands.

I would much prefer we focus any future discussions on the suggestions that the NHS should be more distant from politicians - if constructed properly such a proposal could be used as a basis for a fresh start (though equally it could be used to try and lock in wrong policies).

It is not 'brave' of Charles Clarke to raise this issue, it is foolish and potentially very damaging.


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Re: Charles Clarke is wrong about NHS charging. (#1)

I saw  Charles Clarke last  night  on Newsnight.Just when you think  New Labour  can't have any  more quasi-Tory nonsense  in the pipeline, up it comes. But Neal Lawson was measured and gave a  very good response to this shameful claptrap from Clarke."Free at the  point of use"  is a sacrosanct part   of Labour NHS policy that  not even  people  like John Reid  would have countenanced  in his days  as Health Minister. If Clarke  hopes  to position  himself  in some  way on the leadership, he's going  about it the wrong way.Not "brave" at all. Disgraceful. Still, as he's toast whoever  becomes  next Labour  leader , not  too  much to worry about here. Given  his recent remarks re Gordon,maybe  he thinks  he has nothing  to  lose.

Re: Charles Clarke is wrong about NHS charging. (#2)

Charles Clarke is off his rocker. He is still under the insane impression that he is going back to ministerial office. Someone please put him in the cupboard under the stairs and loose the key. Fast.

Re: Charles Clarke is wrong about NHS charging. (#3)

Except for his sly dig at New Labour, I'm in full agreement with GrimUpNorth.

There's a first

:)

Re: Charles Clarke is wrong about NHS charging. (#4)

Don't agree with Charles Clarke on this one. There is no need to start charging people for more things. Plenty of money is going into the NHS - there's no reason why they need to do this.

BTW grimupnorth, this isn't a New Labour belief, it's Charles Clarke being an idiot as usual.

Re: Charles Clarke is wrong about NHS charging. (#5)

Fair  enough, JR! For  once  we  all agree.

Re: Charles Clarke is wrong about NHS charging. (#6)

He is raising an issue that needs to be discussed.  As a society we cannot keep up with the huge cost of health care associated with medical advances.  Thousands of people are buying their own drugs for life threatening illnesses such as cancer as the NHS cannot afford to keep up with advances in medication.  NICE already decides not to approve many drugs if the cost does not match quality or length of life.  Millions of people are paying for rehabilitative medicine as that granted by the NHS sometimes fall short of what individuals want.  We have a strong trade union representing medical staff and even they raise silly notions to strengthen their members positions.  On the one hand the BMA want GPs to "treat" gamblers yet they oppose the greater use of pharmacists (rather than their members) in prescribing drugs that are available over the counter elsewhere in Europe.  Charles Clarke stated firmly that in his opinion, medical procedures would always be free and he would not countenance a two tier system.  I admired him raising this difficult issue and having experienced health care in other countries it was necessary to do so.  Whilst the NHS has improved dramatically in recent years it still lags behind other developed countries. The greatest criticism I have of the NHS relates to the organisations culture.  I welcome the governments stance on being patient led, introducing choice and money following the patient.  This is the only way to improve the organisation and Tony Blair has his finger on the nation's pulse when he says that people do not care who provides the service - private or public facility.  The PM gave a speech recently in which he stated that a particular Hospital Trust was unable to meet waiting times for specific operations.  However, once they were offered a private clinic's input to get waiting lists down, they managed to do the work themselves.  I am sorry therefore but I feel that greater efficiency is achieved through competition.  I also think that the public do not worry too much about the venue of health care - as long as the procedure is carried out speedily and of course the same surgeons work in both venues.                                                    
The NHS unlike many other countries provides a greater array of services.  Other countries in Europe charge for food whilst in hospital. Other countries expect a contribution towards hospital transport as well as expecting families to offer support to their elderly relatives - in this country we expect everything to be done by the state.  I have read recently of an organisation being set up to lobby Ministers for allowances to care for their ailing spouse/partners.

Our expectations of the NHS far exceed what we are willing to pay in taxation.  We all have access to the internet and can obtain the latest information on  latest medical techniques and new drugs.  It seems inevitable therefore that if we are to maintain a good quality health service then an element of charging will be introduced in the future.

Re: Charles Clarke is wrong about NHS charging. (#7)

The NHS  saved  my  life. Literally. I am happy to  pay  whatever it takes in taxation to stop what  would  be  an unacceptable  and wicked  erosion  of a  healthcare system which  is  the envy  of most  of these these "other countries" you mention.It's  one  thing  using  the private  sector for  medical procedures (don't  agree with it  but sometimes unavoidable) quite another  charging   people  for  their basic  right  to healthcare.  As for charging  for  food  in hospital ,  you  cannot  be serious! Clarke  , and  you, Liz  are way  out  of line  with Labour thinking.

Re: Charles Clarke is wrong about NHS charging. (#16)

As much as I disagree with liz, let's not stifle debate as usual with the typical 'you're out of line with what real labour thinks...'

People are entitled to their opinions. You might disagree with them but don't pretend as though there is a uniform party stance and anyone who goes over these 'boundaries' is not Labour anymore. Anything should be up for debate.

Re: Charles Clarke is wrong about NHS charging. (#12)

The principle is free health care.We need ways of supporting this principle. I accept your arguments over taxation but ask you to consider that the majority of taxpayers would be happy if tax increases went to the NHS.
It is difficult to argue when Tax payers money goes towards Trident, which we dont need and foreign wars such as Iraq, which alot of people I speak to see as illegal and wrong.

Also the massive profits (and bonuses!!!) companies make irk the vast majority of voters. Labour ofers minimal control of this in the name of the free market.

Re: Charles Clarke is wrong about NHS charging. (#8)

Charles Clarke is a total waste of space. Why can't be just bugger off?

Re: Charles Clarke is wrong about NHS charging. (#10)

maybe he should go back to Norwich and concentrate in trying to save his marginal seat from the Libdems...

Re: Charles Clarke is wrong about NHS charging. (#9)

It amuses me greatly that, despite the huge differences of opinion on the Amicus threads, we can still find something that all Labour members can agree on - that Charles Clarke is a complete arse.

Re: Charles Clarke is wrong about NHS charging. (#11)

A real vote winner. What planet does Clarke live on?

Re: Charles Clarke is wrong about NHS charging. (#13)

Charles is my local MP, and I feel that a little defending of the man is in order here. What people are in danger of doing is misinterpreting Charles' comments and creating a straw man to knock down.

What Charles has actually said is not widely published, but there's a news article on it here.

The NHS has limited resources available to it and already has to decide what treatments will and will not be made available on the NHS. Sometimes it simply has to refuse to supply a certain course of treatment due to lack of funds.

Given the limits of what the NHS can do, is it really so wrong to consider ectending the range of available services by funding it though charging?

Re: Charles Clarke is wrong about NHS charging. (#14)

Well said 'CitizenAndreas'.  I wonder how many people have actually taken the trouble to read Charles Clarke's speech?  It seems alot of the comments here are based on a dislike for the politician in question or a blind aversion to any sort of change or reform to the NHS or other public service.

If people have some time I would recommend they take the trouble to read the whole speech that Charles Clarke gave at the London School of Economics in the Economic Policy And Taxation After Blair
http://www.charlesclarke.org.uk/

Let's charge for NHS and schools, says Clarke
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/08/nhealth208.xml

Clarke is making some very important points.  We know that public spending is going to grow at much slower pace after the upcoming Comprehensive Spending Review.  The respected Institute for Fiscal Studies has pointed this out in great detail. As Clarke sensibly say's in his speech: "Even if this is combined with the annual 3% efficiency savings proposed in last December's Pre-Budget Report I very much doubt that this will be enough to meet the likely increases in demand for spending in those areas. Nor do I believe that there will be any real appetite to raise general levels of taxation to meet those demands. Indeed my own view is that such general increases would be difficult to justify".  We also know that it's very difficult to achieve efficiency savings, a report last week found it almost impossible to quantify most of the Treasury's so-called Gershon-savings.  Also the more savings that the Government tries to make the more it will upset public servants and unions.

So Clarke's argument's is that there is a case for 'co-funding' and calls for debate on it, in my view perfectly sensibly.  I think some forms of charging in our public services would be more than acceptable, how it would be implemented is another debate.  But was the NHS set up to treat people who had drunk to excess on a Friday/Saturday night and then vomit there guts out and require A&E services, is there not a case for invoicing them for the use of NHS services?  Is there not a case for charging for IVF treatment on the NHS?  Also there must a case for charging for things such as tattoo removals etc?  Charging surely will be introduced for missed appointments for the GP or Consultants?  Is there a case for charging actually making an appointment with a GP i.e. say £10, I believe they have introduced this in France.  It might not be comfortable but given the upcoming decrease in public spending the Government and all political parties are going to have to think of imaginative ways of funding public services.  There seems to be no desire from the three mains parties to increase taxes, all three parties have accepted that spending will slow, so something has to give?  Either we increase borrowing to even higher levels than they already are, or the Government starts massive cuts of services, or something imaginative is done.

What's really depressing about this is the fact only Liz and CitizenAndreas were prepared to acknowledge that there is a real problem here.

Re: Charles Clarke is wrong about NHS charging. (#17)

I agree. Charles Clark is an experienced operator. He should know that his message would get reported by the hacks as 'Labour in favour of charges in the NHS'.

He must know he's unlikely to get into Gordon's cabinet - so is he being reckless on purpose?