House of Lords - elect them all

Mike Ion Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 09:37:38 PM GMT Print-friendly version Facebook

It is, in my view, completely absurd that political patronage still forms such a major part of the British constitution in the 21st century.

Some of the arguments put forward to defend the staus quo are plain daft. In particular, it is repeatedly argued that because, unlike MPs, Lords do not have to worry about reselection they are more independent. In fact, if anything, the opposite is the case. The reason for this should be obvious to anyone: candidates for the House of Commons are selected by local parties while candidates for the House of Lords are selected by party leaders. The reason the government is held to account as often as it is in the House of Lords is because no single party has a majority in the second chamber. The only way of guaranteeing that this continues is by introducing elections - not for some peers, not for 50% of peers - for all members of the Lords.

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House of Lords - elect them all | 18 comments (18 topical)

Re: House of Lords - elect them all (#1)

by doctordunc on Fri Feb 02, 2007 at 12:46:52 AM GMT

Absolutely agree Mike.  When you think about it, the argument that not being concerned about being re-elected makes you more independent (and therefore preferable) is an argument against democracy.  Full stop.  The idea that creating unaccountable legislators somehow secures a degree of political independence is, I would suggest, an absurd one.


Re: House of Lords - elect them all (#2)

by MM on Fri Feb 02, 2007 at 02:09:11 AM GMT

It's all very well arguing for a fully elected House of Lords but how do you address the primacy of the House of Commons? i.e the potential of gridlock in the system.

Appointing Lord's maybe somewhat distasteful but there is no doubt that some do a fantastic job i.e today's debate on the Government's decision to supsend the Serious Fraud Inquiry into BAE Systems/Saudi arms deal.  If all Lord's were elected would be get the quality of peers that we get now i.e former civil servants, former members of the armed forces and the legal profession etc.  These people maybe the so-called 'establishment' but they perform a cruical role in holding the Government to account there is significant evidence in recent years of this being the case.

I think the fundamental problem with the Blair Government's approach to reforming the House of Lord's is that they never fully known what they want the 2nd Chamber to do.  I guess if we were being truely radical we could do what a number of countries have done and abolish the 2nd chamber and just have a stronger committee system?


Re: House of Lords - elect them all (#3)

by Mike Ion on Fri Feb 02, 2007 at 08:24:18 AM GMT

While there is no doubt that a more democratically legitimate second chamber would no doubt be more willing to use its powers to the full, those powers would be defined in the Act of Parliament that created it. It is completely delusional to believe that a democratic mandate would give the second chamber the authority to overstep its boundaries.

Local councils are democratically elected, yet no-one has ever suggested it has the authority to ignore Westminster. A second chamber that was subordinate to the House of Commons would remain subordinate unless the House of Commons itself agreed to give it greater powers.

A democratically legitimate second chamber would be in a far stronger position to scrutinise the government of the day than the current House of Lords, which often stands up to the government but rarely manages to negotiate meaningful compromises. From a democratic point of view, it is hard to see why this would be a problem.


[ Parent ]

Re: House of Lords - elect them all (#4)

by Juvenal on Fri Feb 02, 2007 at 09:26:05 AM GMT

There is a worrying tendency in British politics to treat the population (and legislators) as dim, that they somehow couldn't cope with the idea of two elected houses, one with primacy over the other.  It works perfectly well in other countries.  

Let's stop infantilising democracy in the UK.


[ Parent ]

Re: House of Lords - elect them all (#5)

by Mark Wadsworth on Fri Feb 02, 2007 at 12:02:05 PM GMT

Mike, for once I agree! Juvenal makes more good points.


Re: House of Lords - elect them all (#10)

by Mike Ion on Fri Feb 02, 2007 at 03:29:39 PM GMT

We agree - a day to remember!


[ Parent ]

Re: House of Lords - elect them all (#6)

by Glass House on Fri Feb 02, 2007 at 01:21:18 PM GMT

I agree completely.

Although no one has ever explained to me the virtue of 'supremacy of the Commons' - why is it a good thing?


Re: House of Lords - elect them all (#7)

by Mark Wadsworth on Fri Feb 02, 2007 at 01:43:54 PM GMT

I am only familiar with two other constitutions, teh US one and the German one, which also have bi-cameral parliaments (House of Rep's = Bundestag = Commons and Senate = Bundesrat = Lords) and there has to be a tie-breaker things somewhere that one can overrule the other. I personally am not fussed which one is above the other, but not having a tie-breaker rule (toss of coin, like at elections?) means a lot of deadlocks.


[ Parent ]

Re: House of Lords - elect them all (#8)

by Glass House on Fri Feb 02, 2007 at 02:51:17 PM GMT

Why does there have to be a tie break?

The US constitution doesnt have one - just an assumption that the HoR, the Senate and the President have to work together.


[ Parent ]

Re: House of Lords - elect them all (#9)

by doctordunc on Fri Feb 02, 2007 at 03:07:51 PM GMT

Well you just make whatever constitutional provision you like in the legislation that sets it up.  I would probably go for the chamber having a very similar role to the one it holds today: a debating, delaying and amending chamber.  And if that's what you make it, the fact that it's elected doesn't give it any more power, it just gives its power legitimacy.  Of course you could decide to equalise the roles and have something more like the US Senate, but that would be quite a major constitutional change and would probably need a broader debate.

Making the thing 100% elected could happen overnight to be honest.


[ Parent ]

Re: House of Lords - elect them all (#12)

by otware on Sat Feb 03, 2007 at 01:23:53 PM GMT

As far as I can ee, the only reason the Commons is 'supreme' is because it is the legitimate part of parliament. But the Lords is supposed to be the upper house, and if it was elected then it could be that once more. In Italy they have a system with 2 eleced houses, 1 above the other. Why can't we do that here?


[ Parent ]

Re: House of Lords - elect them all (#13)

by Glass House on Sat Feb 03, 2007 at 01:58:25 PM GMT

Yeah, I understand that it is currently supreme because it is the house with democratic legitimacy.

But what Imn asking is why, if both houses were elected, one would have to be supreme. I'm genuninely asking because noone has ever given me a single reason why a bicameral parliament with one house supreme is better than one with two equal houses (al la the USA)


[ Parent ]

Re: House of Lords - elect them all (#14)

by doctordunc on Sat Feb 03, 2007 at 03:14:01 PM GMT

The only reason is a question over whether gridlock is desirable.  If you decided to have two equal houses then - in theory - you could have gridlock and it would be much harder for governments to get their legislation through.  Much of the time that would be no bad thing!  I think there has to be some mechanism for ensuring legislation can get passed in the event of different parties controlling the two chambers that doesn't just depend on behind-the-scenes deals and bargaining, etc.  So one house being dominant gives you a constitutional and visible means of keeping the legislative process going.  It's not something I feel terribly strongly about; I think - if you have two chambers - they should both be elected; the finer constitutional points are then up for debate.


[ Parent ]

Re: House of Lords - elect them all (#16)

by otware on Sat Feb 03, 2007 at 07:03:11 PM GMT

In theory I cannot see a problem with having 2 equally powerful houses - so long as they are elected differently, as in America (otherwise they would essentially be copies of each other, costing the taxpayer twice!). Of course this would not be a problem if the Commons was elected by FPTP and the Lords by PR.

Also, I think it would be important to have a democraticaly legitimate head of state who would have power if the 2 houses couldn't decide.

Ultimately I think our entire system of government must be changed in one go. We cannot really keep altering it and expect it to work. We should get rid of the Queen, get rid of the Lords, use PR to elect the other house etc.


[ Parent ]

Re: House of Lords - elect them all (#11)

by Loz on Fri Feb 02, 2007 at 10:20:18 PM GMT

I think this issue should be discussed. It will show the public the real Tory party.

They'd be up in arms over such a move.

Labout by contrast would retain its deserved image as a party of moderation and modernization.


Re: House of Lords - elect them all (#15)

by Juvenal on Sat Feb 03, 2007 at 06:19:19 PM GMT

Absolutely Loz.  Which is why I'm a little disappointed that the Government always allows a free vote and multiple options on this in Parliament.  Let's show some leadership on this - one option: an all-elected second chamber.


[ Parent ]

Re: House of Lords - elect them all (#17)

by JR on Sun Feb 04, 2007 at 02:00:11 AM GMT

100% elected upper house is the only way. Anything less is undemocratic.

However, I agree with GlassHouse that we don't necessarily have to make this new chamber especially weaker than the Commons - the whole point of having a new elected chamber is that they can democratically challenge the government of the day if necessary. If it doesn't have any teeth then what's the point of it existing?

Personally, this is how I would like the new upper house to be:
90 Senators elected by proportional representation from regions (like European Parliament elections) for fixed 4 year terms.
They would have the ability to vote down laws completely (like the US Senate) - so in a sense both houses would need to give permission for a law to be passed.
However, it wouldn't be allowed to create new laws - only the Commons can introduce bills.
No members of the government or opposition (shadow cabinet) can be from the upper house - only from the Commons.
It can have no whips, making it more 'neutral' and less partisan.
The Commons would be given the power to declare war and approve ambassadorial appointments which the upper house would not have.


Re: House of Lords - elect them all (#18)

by duokong on Thu May 24, 2007 at 03:21:57 AM GMT

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House of Lords - elect them all | 18 comments (18 topical)