Abortion and disability discrimination

Anne Q Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 01:43:08 PM GMT Print-friendly version Facebook

An important debate is happening in the House of Lords this week.  An amendment has been tabled to end the discriminatory nature of abortion legislation.  The law currently permits an abortion to be conducted right up to birth, when any disability has been detected, whereas it is a criminal offence to abort an able-bodied fetus after 24 weeks.  Clearly, a case of one law for the able-bodied another for the disabled.  I hope our peers support this important amendment.





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Abortion and disability discrimination | 20 comments (20 topical)

Re: Amendment to end abortion disability (#1)

by Kat on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 04:05:47 PM GMT

don't know how this law slipped through the net, there's been so much progress on disability rights in recent years.  Can't imagine it will receive much opposition.  It seems to be a tidying up exercise really, I'm just surprised it hasn't been changed earlier.  I'm no lawyer but i can't see how this kind of discrimination is compatible with the human rights act.


Abortion disability discrimination (#2)

by laurencemarshall on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 04:46:06 PM GMT

Right, this is hospital ball if I ever saw one, but i'll catch it.

Really, in my opinion, it depends on the disability at hand and the mothers ability to cope. If a hypothetical mother felt that she couldn't care with someone with a significant disability, then she should have the right to choose to have an abortion. It should be up to the individual.

To declare an interest, my brother does have Down's syndrome, so i've probably thought about the issue around this more than most. 


Re: Abortion disability discrimination (#11)

by Anne Q on Tue Dec 04, 2007 at 01:15:30 PM GMT

that kind of misses the point.  No able-bodied fetus can be aborted after 24 weeks, no matter the circumstances, so they have a higher status and protection in law that those with disabilities - that is clear discrimination, the law must surely be amended.


[ Parent ]

Re: Abortion disability discrimination (#13)

by NorthernMonkey on Tue Dec 04, 2007 at 01:54:24 PM GMT

Your argument makes no sense. It's comparable to looking at voluntary euthanasia and saying 'well terminally ill people can end their life but fit and healthy people can't - that's discriminatory'. That wouldn't be discriminatory at all as they are completely different circumstances, just like the difference between severely disabled foetuses and healthy ones.

No able-bodied fetus can be aborted after 24 weeks, no matter the circumstances

That's not true. If the mother's life is at risk then abortion can occur at any point up to birth. I think in cases of rape this is allowed too.


[ Parent ]

Re: Abortion disability discrimination (#17)

by Anne Q on Tue Dec 04, 2007 at 09:55:00 PM GMT

You still miss the point, this is about the cut off point being equalised and not about the degree of disability.

The example you give is also not really comparable. Terminating the life of a disabled fetus is an external action taken by another that impacts directly on its life. The fetus is not in a position to make decisions or to defend itself. In contrast, voluntary euthanasia is a decision taken by a presumably competent adult on a course of action that affects that individual. The scenarios are therefore inherently different.

The question is, why should one fetus who happens to be disabled have less rights than an able bodied fetus? A general termination after 24 weeks (besides disability and to save mothers life) is an unlawful killing - a pretty serious offence.  So why is it an unlawful killing if the fetus is healthy, but not, if the fetus is disabled?  No matter how it is dressed up, it seems pretty clear that the law is unequal.


ok - i take your point re: the mother's life at risk.
rape, seems to be a bit of a red herring, i'm sure the 24 week cut off point would apply in such cases. I can't see why that wouldn't be the case.


[ Parent ]

Re: Abortion disability discrimination (#19)

by NorthernMonkey on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 12:46:11 AM GMT

You still miss the point, this is about the cut off point being equalised and not about the degree of disability.

But the degree of disablity determines the cut off point for abortion, as it should be. Often it cannot be known whether a foetus will be disabled until the latter stages of pregnancy.

The fetus is not in a position to make decisions or to defend itself.

Precisely, so the parents have to make a decision taking into account the disabled baby's quality of life. If they know their disabled baby will live it's life with perpetual pain and won't live for very long, then out of kindness they may decide not to have the baby.

The question is, why should one fetus who happens to be disabled have less rights than an able bodied fetus?

This issue is more about circumstances rather than rights. You're looking at the situation from the wrong perspective. Parents who don't want a severely disabled child do not go through with an abortion to be cruel or unkind, they do so because they don't want to bring a child into the world who will have a dreadful life.

rape, seems to be a bit of a red herring, i'm sure the 24 week cut off point would apply in such cases. I can't see why that wouldn't be the case.

Some women who have been raped won't want to talk about it for a long while after the event. It would be incredibly cruel to force a woman who had become pregnant through rape to keep the baby which she doesn't want.


[ Parent ]

Re: Amendment to end abortion (#3)

by alexhilton on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 06:19:21 PM GMT

I start from the position of supporting a woman's right to terminate a healthy foetus.

People with disabilities have a variety of experiences of life, though sadly the challenges are rarely limited to their own abilities. First there is outright abuse to contend with - but there is a more insidious force at work.

A very small proportion of public transport is adequately accessible. Local authorities treat disabled children and adults as a burden - and often parents have to fight hard to get the services their children need.

A friend of mine died last year. Wheelchair-bound since he was a teenager, he went to university and studied law - yet he could find no solicitors firm to take him on.

Sexuality is another aspect of disability that is often ignored. Teenagers in care, going through the same changes as everyone else, often find their emotions unfulfilled and unexplained and the cult of perfection that pervades our society means that people with the slightest physical imperfections can suffer the greatest blows to their self esteem.

I don't like they way it is and I will try to change it - but society is disabled - incapable of providing equality and dignity for people who are born a bit different. People talk about dyslexia as a disability for example - yet there are those who believe the condition is merely a different way of thinking - but is our education system geared up to teach people who think in a non-conventional way? - No it is not.

The ethics of this question, as I see it, hangs on the nature of the foetus. If it is a person, then surely you could never terminate. However, it is in my opinion only a potential person - and so discrimination is harder to effect.

Society has so far to go on disability rights that I wouldn't criticise a woman for terminating a foetus with a disability any more than I would criticise a woman for aborting a pregnancy if she lived in a war zone and didn't wish to expose her potential child to an unhappy world.

And if we're talking about discrimination, let's think about how many MPs and Peers debating this issue will ever have been capable of producing a foetus.


Re: Amendment to end abortion (#5)

by RedRooster on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 08:19:48 PM GMT

Er Alex, I don't think any human is capable of producing a feotus independently... unless they have some form of mad-scientists cloning apparatus ready to hand.


[ Parent ]

Re: Amendment to end abortion (#6)

by Red Maria on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 09:57:02 PM GMT

Well Alex Hilton isn't capable of giving birth to a foetus either. If he really believes that men should have no opinion on the subject, he should delete himself from this discussion now.
At any rate, he doesn't understand the issue at all, which is one of discrimination against disabled foetuses.
At the moment, able bodied foetuses can only be aborted up to 24 weeks. This rule is waived for disabled foetuses which can be aborted up to birth. 
Can Alex and Northern Monkey explain why there be one rule for able-bodied foetuses and another for disabled foetuses?


[ Parent ]

Re: Amendment to end abortion (#7)

by alexhilton on Tue Dec 04, 2007 at 12:36:26 AM GMT

I have an opinion, which i have expressed, that a foetus is a potential person. I also have another opinion which is that our male dominated state has been telling women what they can and can't do with their bodies for a very long time.


[ Parent ]

Re: Amendment to end abortion (#8)

by NorthernMonkey on Tue Dec 04, 2007 at 01:37:17 AM GMT

Because sometimes parents don't want to bring a child into the world if they know he or she will have an appauling quality of life due to crippling disability. It's better to have no life at all than life with perpetual agony. That's why I also support the legalisation of voluntary euthanasia.


[ Parent ]

Re: Abortion and disability discrimination (#4)

by NorthernMonkey on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 06:52:41 PM GMT

Anne, this issue really is not as simple as black and white. It depends on what disability the foetus has.

If it's a minor disability which won't greatly harm quality of life then perhaps abortion isn't acceptable. However, if the disability is something more significant then I can perfectly understand a parent's wish not to bring a child into the world where it won't have any decent quality of life whatsoever.


Re: Abortion and disability discrimination (#12)

by Anne Q on Tue Dec 04, 2007 at 01:17:31 PM GMT

Disability discrimination legislation never specifies that people with particular disabilities should have more rights and protection than those with other types of disabilities. It would make a non-sense of anti-discrimination leglisation to do so.


[ Parent ]

Re: Abortion and disability discrimination (#14)

by NorthernMonkey on Tue Dec 04, 2007 at 01:57:07 PM GMT

Of course it does! Take the shake up of incapacity benefits for example - those with the severest of disabilities won't be forced to work where as those with mild disabilities will probably be made to work if they can.

Not all disabilities are the same. There's a huge difference between say someone with dyslexia and someone with severe mental health problems. The law discriminates all the time between those differences to fit different circumstances and rightly so.


[ Parent ]

Re: Abortion and disability discrimination (#18)

by Anne Q on Tue Dec 04, 2007 at 10:31:29 PM GMT

access to incapacity benefit is there to help those in need, the more disabled, the more support. The shake-up of incapacity benefit doesn't state that those who can't work can be lawfully killed.

disabilities may be different, but there should be no difference in protection against being killed.  I've explained elsewhere on this page that after 24 weeks a general termination is an unlawful killing.


[ Parent ]

Re: Abortion and disability discrimination (#20)

by NorthernMonkey on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 12:48:26 AM GMT

I'm afraid just because you say it, it doesn't make it so. I certainly do not associate 'abortion' with 'killing' at all and neither does the law in the majority of cases.

access to incapacity benefit is there to help those in need, the more disabled, the more support

So you admit there is not one standard set of rules for all disabled people - it varies from disability to disability.


[ Parent ]

Re: Abortion and disability discrimination (#15)

by Giusi on Tue Dec 04, 2007 at 06:16:19 PM GMT


[ Parent ]

Re: Abortion and disability discrimination (#9)

by treborc on Tue Dec 04, 2007 at 08:17:35 AM GMT

I am disabled Born with a learning disability, my wife is Spina Bifida, when i left school my careers teacher said take what ever job you can get and pray your are employed.


 I went to work as a Tea boy for a large company called Balfour's, within six months i was a charge hand within a year a foreman, my earnings in the 1970's reached about £25,000 PA.  I left school unable to read and write taught myself, the one thing I was not scared of was working.


My wife is a trained butchers and worked until last year when she was given early retirement.


I had an accident a few years ago at work, now I work unpaid of course at a Special Needs School, I see some of the worse disabled children you can see and it depends on the parents what these kids lives are, most of my kids die early most between twenty and forty.


Five are gold medal skiing champions for the Para Olympic games, three are full football internationals for England, two are sliver medals winners for the down hill bob, and myself I am a full time FA coach with a full badge.


Disability is not something people can tell you about, most people born with a disability do not see themselves as disabled to them they are normal.


Here is sad news for you 40% of the disabled people of this country are people who are born without a disability who then suffer mental health problems.


30% are people who have been injured after accident or self caused harm, but the smallest number of people claiming benefits are those born with a disability.


Who are we to say who should die or who should live. I personally think it's  a disgrace that Asian families put pressure on daughter to kill unborn girls because they will not look after the family in old age.


I am sorry I agree with mothers having abortions but for god sake if your going to get rid of a baby do it before 24 weeks. have the guts to accept that if you do not want a child do not have it, do not do like one girl I know she has six abortions in seven years because her boy friend was a Catholic and did not want to use protection, infantile little Burke.


Disabled people want6 to be seen as being like everyone else. it the people who become disabled later in life who see life different.




Re: Abortion and disability discrimination (#10)

by Just Labour on Tue Dec 04, 2007 at 01:06:22 PM GMT

Surely 24 weeks (the current limit on abortion) is plenty of time given modern medicine and science for a parent to ascertain whether a foetus carries a disability that would influence whether the mother would wish to have an abortion. There is no justification sufficient to allow any abortions after 24 weeks except in v excetional circumstances. Indeed, the vast majority of abortions are in fact undertaken within 20 weeks so we are talking about a relatively small number of abortions.


Re: Abortion and disability discrimination (#16)

by jkitleft on Tue Dec 04, 2007 at 09:13:32 PM GMT

Technically, I'm 'disabled' for the purposes of certain education benefits. I think it is an ugly word, I'm perfectly abled. We seem to think of a 'disability' as something that stops people doing anything. Not true. We have a partially blind Prime Minister, an ex-Home Secretary who was blind, a wheelchair bound MP, and Jackie Ashley's dad wad the first deaf MP. People, often, no matter how moderate they want to pretend to be, think of the 'disabled' as helpless people in chairs.


I can understand why some may take the child's diability into account, in the process of Abortion, but disability discrimination is the last major form of discrimination that needs to be tackled 


Abortion and disability discrimination | 20 comments (20 topical)