Tory calls for Revolution in Pakistan

archbold Sat Nov 03, 2007 at 11:14:37 PM GMT Print-friendly version Facebook

Today on BBC News 24 Rehman Chrishti, the Conservative candidate for Gillingham and Rainham, called for the people of Pakistan to take to the streets and begin a revolution.



He drew an analogy with the Orange revolution in the Ukraine. Whilst it is clear that the moves made by General Musharraf are deeply concerning, if the people take to the streets it would only lead to bloodshed, especially without the support of the Army (who are firmly behind Musharraf). It is irresponsible for anyone to call for such action, but for someone who one day hopes to be an MP - it is both naive and dangerous.



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Tory calls for Revolution in Pakistan | 22 comments (22 topical)

Re: Tory calls for Revolution in Pakistan (#1)

by treborc on Sun Nov 04, 2007 at 01:33:17 PM GMT

I hope he will be going out to fight as well then.


Re: Tory calls for Revolution in Pakistan (#2)

by swatantra on Sun Nov 04, 2007 at 02:08:32 PM GMT

Ditto. I hope to see him in the vanguard.
Yet again Pakistan has proved itself incapable of any semblance of democracy. Perhaps its symptomatic of all Islamic Republics.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tory calls for Revolution in Pakistan (#3)

by alexswanson on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 08:49:15 AM GMT

Interesting to see - yet again - the Left siding with dictatorship and not with the people who are entitled to democracy. But of course we are all familiar with past support for the Soviet Union and continued present support for Cuba, and the way that Israel was condemned for years for its occupation of Arab territories, whilst Syrian occupation of Lebanese territiry was completely ignored.


Re: Tory calls for Revolution in Pakistan (#11)

by NorthernMonkey on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 12:30:42 PM GMT

...like Thatcher supporting Apathheid South Africa perhaps? Or her support of Pinochet might be a good example?

Labour have traditionally been the party that supported human rights and democracy around the world (like in Palestine and South Africa for example), whilst clueless Tories stick their heads in the sand.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tory calls for Revolution in Pakistan (#12)

by alexswanson on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 02:04:03 PM GMT

Can you not keep party politics out of this? Is your line just "Well, we're better than the Tories"?

I am not a Conservative Party member, and even when I was, I adopted opinions clearly separate from the leadership whenever the occasion called for it - in fact, I was once commended for an opinion by Tony Blair in the House of Commons. So I suggest you keep your tribalism out of it.

 I don't believe for a second that left-wing oppostion to apartheid or support for Palestinians had or has anything whatever to do with democracy or human rights. If it did you would have been equally ready to condemn the Soviet Union or Cuba, and we all know that's not the case. The simple motivation here is to get at the United States, by attacking a country which was (however imperfect) at least pro-Western, and by attacking Israel, one of the US' closest allies.

 And for the record, Labour have not supported human rights or democracy around the world. Far from it, you don't support them even at home. The early release of Northern Irish terrorists, for example, was a breach of the UN's Covenant on Civil and Political Rights; and this govt is the only one for decades to to to run an election without using the secret ballot.

 


[ Parent ]

Re: Tory calls for Revolution in Pakistan (#20)

by NorthernMonkey on Tue Nov 06, 2007 at 01:43:58 AM GMT

Party politics? You're the one who started it. You're a Tory posting antagonising views on a Labour website. So you keep your tribalism out of this. If you don't want to be criticised then don't post on a Labour forum in the first place.

And how dare you criticise Labour's stance on Northern Ireland. If it wasn't for Blair, Northern Ireland would still be in the same chaos it was 15 years ago. Under the Tories, fighting got worse in NI and there was little to no democracy to speak of. It was the Good Friday Peace Process that has led to the peace and stability in Northern Ireland today. Even most Tories would have the humility to recognise that.

Labour has always traditionally been the party that has stood up for democracy and human rights and it's your party (whether you're a member or not) who has stuck up for oppression both at home and abroad.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tory calls for Revolution in Pakistan (#21)

by NorthernMonkey on Tue Nov 06, 2007 at 01:48:17 AM GMT

Alex, is this you per chance? You seem a pretty hard-core Tory to me.

http://www.mkconservatives.com/people.p?id=aswanson


[ Parent ]

Re: Tory calls for Revolution in Pakistan (#4)

by Prbo on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 09:15:40 AM GMT

"if the people take to the streets it would only lead to bloodshed, especially without the support of the Army (who are firmly behind Musharraf)."

Looks like the only option is invading - but will Brown bottle it?


Re: Tory calls for Revolution in Pakistan (#5)

by swatantra on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 10:07:05 AM GMT

You must be joking! Invasion is not an option and should never even be considered. Its for the people of Pakistan to sort out their own problems. Very few revolutions have been successful without blood being shed. In the end, troops will not fire on the masses because they know that some protestors will get through and tear them limb from limb.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tory calls for Revolution in Pakistan (#6)

by alexswanson on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 10:11:33 AM GMT

It would be nice to think that troops would not fire on the masses because the masses were their own people. This is one reason  why the USSR collapsed peacefully - the regime knew it could no longer rely on soldiers to fire on civilians (as happened, for example, at Novocherkassk)


[ Parent ]

Re: Tory calls for Revolution in Pakistan (#7)

by swatantra on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 10:25:56 AM GMT

Well, here's to a peaceful, velvet, orange and yellow revolution. If the opposition can put aside their differences and show a united front, it just might work. But the integrity of Pakistani politicians leaves much to be desired. The West may have in the end to accept a Religious Islamic Party, democratically elected, emerging as the legitmate government of Pakistan.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tory calls for Revolution in Pakistan (#8)

by Wilberforce on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 10:29:40 AM GMT

I think an understanding of the real events on the ground is lacking here by this Tory Rehman Christi… what a surprise.  

 

There is ALREADY a revolution going on in Pakistan… and there has been a low-intensity conflict raging in the North West Frontier for years. Whilst previously confined mainly to North and South Waziristan Tribal Agencies (where the government does not have direct remit) and partly a spillover from the situation in Afghanistan, it has more recently spread to government administered areas of NWFP such as Swat. In particular, after Musharaf stormed the Lal Masjid (Red Mosque) militant stronghold in Islamabad, which had wanted to impose a strict Islamic code in Islamabad, perhaps the most Westernised of Pakistan’s cities.

 

In the last couple of weeks, they have blown the face of historic Buddhist carvings in Swat, sent ‘night letters’ to local businesses threatening them to close because they were engaging in immoral activities, beheaded their opponents, attacked police and army etc. Pakistani friends of mine working performing aid work in that region for a local NGO were forced to close their office which was working to prevent child labour, and retreat to Peshawar. This Talebanisation was threatening the stability across NWFP and the army needs to take a tough line to restore normalcy there.

 

However, if the Supreme Court effectively removed Musharaf from office today by their ruling on his ineligibility to run for another term in uniform, then this battle could not have been fought. That’s effectively what tipped his hand to make this horrible decision. To take his uniform off would only give strength to Islamic leading members of the Inter Service Intelligence (ISI) in the army and would literally be a suicide bid on his part. In the politics of influence and patronage once Musharaf was no longer running the Army loyalty would go to someone else.

 

Whilst the ideals of the Supreme Court in upholding democracy are more than noble, their unfortunate and unintended consequence would have been even more chaos than we see now and a possible Islamic Revolution which would see human right activists slaughtered, womens rights back by centuries etc. It’s the Taleban and supporting organisations like Jamaat-ud-Dawa  who have the arms, the would-be suicide bombers, and the uneducated masses to take to the streets to fight.

 

Of course the best case scenario would indeed be an uprising by city-based democrats, but unfortunately there is no real credible secular democratic force. The two ‘would be’ democrats Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif, have both used the office of PM twice to enrich themselves and their cronies, and beyond those cronies who now clamour for them in order to get a slice of the pie, the ‘few good men’ such as Imran Khan are perhaps too honest to get the clout and muscle needed to have a hope of getting office.

 

The most likely scenario of the naively called for ‘Orange revolution’ is a ‘Green Revolution’ led by the Mullahs and the nightmare of a NUCLEAR ARMED Islamic state.

 

The West has undermined democracy for Pakistan for years with support of General Zia, then Musharaf, and all to support its own strategic objectives. The West’s chickens have come home to roost, after supporting and creating a Mujahadeen to fight the Russians in Afghanistan and flooding the area with weapons, drugs to finance the war, and encouraging religious indoctrination to fight communism, then abandoning the country after the victory. Similarly, after removing the taleban, instead of putting in enough troops to stabilise Afghanistan and enough aid to rebuild the country, we rushed into an unnecessary and illegimate war in Iraq.

 

We are suddenly angry with Musharaf because he declared an emergency when there is a genuine emergency, because we already cut a deal with Bhutto? The time for our righteous anger was from Day One of the military coup in 1999, but instead the West was happy to give Musharaf legitimacy, arms and aid for years against the wishes of the Pakistan people, because he strategically decided to support the war on terror.  

 

This is a mess largely of our own making and the victims are the people of Pakistan.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tory calls for Revolution in Pakistan (#9)

by swatantra on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 11:22:29 AM GMT

But you haven't answered the question of what the West should do if a religious Islamic Party were democratically to emerge and elected in Pakistan, or elsewhere. The fact is there is a re-emergence of Islam in response to the to the hamfisted way the West has dealt with Afghanistan and Iraq, across the Middle East. I don't like it anymore than any sensible moderate would; I'd prefer secular States and religion to be kept out of politics. But the West cannot go around remove Govts like Iran, Hamas etc that it does not like. Pakistan has been a basket case from its very inception. Perhaps the word 'democracy' doesn't appear in the Koran, that is why you won't find any democratic Islamic countries. Turkey unforunately is now also tilting towards the religious route, after Ataturk had set it on a secular route. 


[ Parent ]

Re: Tory calls for Revolution in Pakistan (#10)

by Wilberforce on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 12:04:45 PM GMT

I know what you mean and agree. Where Hamas was elected we refused to recongnise them, even though we encouraged them to join in the electoral process.

Far too many undemocratic governments in the Middle East and Central Asia are supported both militarily and financially by the West. Egypt, Saudi, Pakistan etc are cases in point. Whilst their governments repress political opposition and especially in Saudi control the media, often the only place left for free dialogue at public gatherings are the Mosques and Friday prayers which are much harder to regulate. Thus, we see the main opposition movements (or those most apparent and active) tend to be Islamic fundamentalist in nature (think of the Islamic Brotherhood in Egypt, Al Qaeda in Saudi Arabia and  Jordan, likewise islamic fundamentalists attacking both the army , police, civilians and politicians like Bhutto in Pakistan). Western support for these regimes ( as well as for Israel) also adds fuel to the fire of these Islamic movements. The regimes do their part to add to this by continuing to demonise the West (whilst still taking their money).

 

I think that in Iran in particular the chances for peaceful democratic change are looking more and more remote. The strong student movement which saw protests on the streets in the 1999 and again in late 2002 was one of the best chances for delivering this. These massive, but brutally suppressed Protests were against the slow pace of real reform and arrest and sentencing of journalists and closure of pro-reform newspapers.

 

What really undermined the momentum of these reform movements however was the USA. Firstly, the inclusion of Iran as part of the ‘axis of evil, in Bush’s 2002 state-of the union, bolstered the hard-liners. Secondly, the invasion of Iraq in 2003 did more of the same…  and one could argue led ultimately to the election of Ahmadinejad (although this also had to do with the poorer masses voting someone would seemed at the time to fight for their economic wellbeing.)

 

Now with the whole ‘nuclear’ issue looming, hardliners have got stronger and stronger, and even the liberals are completely against an invasion or airstrikes, believing that Iran has the right to pursue the search for Nuclear power. Whilst invasion or airtimes loom large there is sadly little chance of a democratic or people-power movement that would overthrow the Islamic Revolution. Its for this reason that I think that engagement with Iran and an honest airing of the issues – including their possible involvement in bringing stability to Iraq – is the best way forward, albeit towards a longer term solution.

What we need to do is support secular voices, and help to create secular societies by supporting education projects in remote areas of countries like Pakistan now served only by madrassas, and ensure that there is fair-trade giving countries like Pakistan, Palestine a market for their goods leading to greater employment and less poverty and opportunities for radicalisation.

But to answer your question, if an Islamic government is properly elected, without threats and intimidation - which i see actually see unlikely in Pakistan, then we  do need to recognise it. If they commit human rights abuses etc, then we take action on those.  


[ Parent ]

Re: Tory calls for Revolution in Pakistan (#13)

by alexswanson on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 02:16:03 PM GMT

Before anybody gets carried away with the peaceful-Muslims-are-only-responding-to-Western-imperialism stuff, can I point out that Muslim states spent many centuries launching (often very successful) wars of aggression against the Christian West before any European set foot in America, never mind created the United States. And this aggression was not, as is also sometimes claimed, any distortion of the orginal teachings; on the contrary, the original wars (including the war which turned Christian Egypt Muslim) were led by Mohammed's immediate successors, who undoubtedly understood the religion properly as set out by the Prophet personally.

 

Violence, and extreme violence, by Muslims against non-believers is an inherent, and original, part of the Islamic belief system. It does not require and has never required any action or provocation from the non-believer other than the simple fact of non-belief. 


[ Parent ]

Re: Tory calls for Revolution in Pakistan (#14)

by alexhilton on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 02:54:30 PM GMT

Alex, that is absolute nonsense and it's the same argument the BNP puts forward. It gives you the excuse to say that Islam is bad and to infer that we are conversely good.

You are - I think deliberately - taking the politics of the time after the death of Mohammed and saying it represents Mohammed's teachings.

As a Christian I would not want to be judged by the actions of the church in the past 2000 years. I'm not going to start judging other people on the same basis.

If you want to engage in political discussion, then that's fine, but leave your ignorant hate-mongering at the door.

Alex Hilton
07985 384 859


[ Parent ]

Re: Tory calls for Revolution in Pakistan (#15)

by alexswanson on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 03:18:34 PM GMT

Alex, I'm not hate-mongering, I'm reporting history. The first wars against the Persian and Byzantine Empires, including the wars which destroyed Persia and brought Egypt under Muslim rule, were carried out by people who were close enough to Mohammed to know and understand his teachings. In fact (speaking from memory) I think you'll find that the war against Persia was fought by someone who had known him personally.

 I don't judge people on the basis of actions taken by others, but if someone holds to an ideology which itself involves certain beliefs, then I think that it is reasonable to take those beliefs into account.

I have to say that your comment reminds me of Labour's attitude towards the Nazis before WW2: They can't be that bad, Churchill is warmongering. Of course, Islamo-fascism is not as bad as Nazism was, but I think it wise all the same to judge with clear eyes, regardless of the implications. My feeling is that many on the Left are indulgent of Islam simply because they regard it as a foe of the US. You should not be.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tory calls for Revolution in Pakistan (#17)

by alexhilton on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 04:18:02 PM GMT

"Indulgent of Islam"

My indulgence as you put it is nothing to do with the US - it hadn't even entered my mind. My indulgence stems from a belief in the freedom to practise one's religion.

While there are difficult compromises to be made, I broadly believe religion and the state should be kept seperate and that means the state must treat all religions equally.

So I'm not "indulging" Islam any more than I am indulging Christianity or Zoroastrianism.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tory calls for Revolution in Pakistan (#16)

by Wilberforce on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 03:46:41 PM GMT

Where did I ever make that argument? You are trying to make this racially divisive, whereby anything that critiques the West and tries to look at the deeper causes of issues is condemned.

I said the reality was that armed Islamic groups were trying to take over their own countries governments, something that happens at the expense of the vast majority of muslim citizens in those countries who just want to get on with their lives and earn a decent living. the issues are far more complex than easy soundbites offer solutions too.

I have direct experience of working on the issues of counterterrorism and worked throughout the region. I have no illussions about the dangerous nature of perverse Wahabbi islam, spread through madrassahs worldwide by Saudi petro-dollars.

Thank you Alex Hilton for stepping in here. Just as the Tory party has had to act to remove 'Enoch Powell was right' PPCs, so should it be condemned at this website.



[ Parent ]

Re: Tory calls for Revolution in Pakistan (#18)

by TonyH on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 06:58:20 PM GMT

I can assure you AlexSwanson, you most certainly are not reporting history, not actual history in any event.

I don't want to insult you, but may I refer you to your local library and read a couple of books about both Islam and the history (the actual history) of the Middle East?

I don’t think that you realise that your comments are misguided. Hateful may perhaps be too strong a word in your case because looking at what you’ve written – it just appears tragically misinformed.

From 1093 Christian Europe waged the first crusade to recapture the “Holy Land” which was sanctioned by the Pope. To say that it was all Muslim aggression is so completely simplistic and distorted that it is offensive.

Now, of course, to placate yourself – you’ll think when people here object to what you’ve written that they are somehow “indulgent” of Muslims and that it is through some kind of antipathy for the USA that left leaning voters defend Islamic extremists. Where on earth do you get this nonsense? Is it the Respect Party?

If you go now and read up (even a little bit) beyond BritainandAmerica.com, The Daily Telegraph or Fox News (or however you formed the eye stretching argument that a widely held, core Islamic belief is to kill unbelievers), you may transcend this empty-headed view that world politics holds choices of opinion which are a simple as ‘us and them’, ‘good and evil’ or ‘with us or against us’.

Perhaps you’ll realise how such divisive and stupid views hamper integration.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tory calls for Revolution in Pakistan (#22)

by treborc on Tue Nov 06, 2007 at 06:58:58 PM GMT

Ah did I get my  history wrong or did we do a bit of invading ourself, did we not have some king which Robin hood needed to help, ( joking) Richard the Lion Heart.

The fact is we have fought the Muslim and they have fought back, when are the two sides going to sit down and bloody talk.


[ Parent ]

Re: Tory calls for Revolution in Pakistan (#19)

by archbold on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 07:11:22 PM GMT

I think we are missing the point. The piece was about the irresponsible approach by Tory PPC Rehman Chisti, whose comments were arguably dangerous and showed a high level political naivety.   Although ineptitude does seem to be common amongst Tory PPC’s at the moment!


Tory calls for Revolution in Pakistan | 22 comments (22 topical)