HMRC - the slope gets more slippery

Group51 Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 07:27:19 PM GMT Print-friendly version Facebook

Dunno about you, but this, the Northen Rock crisis, the election cock-up, it all seems like dark clouds are hanging, it feels like John Major's Government again. 




I don't see how people are going to forget this latest calamity, the right will call incompetence, and the left will point to Gordon Brown's (on-going) civil service cuts, which hit HMRC hard.

What componds this for me, is the Labour MPs who come on TV and try to qualify and explain away what's happened.  This is a Black Tuesday moment.  Not good.



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HMRC - the slope gets more slippery | 17 comments (17 topical)

Re: HMRC - the slope gets more slippery (#1)

by WillParbury on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 07:41:06 PM GMT

I think that you are overstating this. This is an operational matter of an idiot civil servant being an idiot civil servant rather than a matter of policy.

Sure it doesn't look great today but I don't think we will look back at the next election and think if only that civil servant had sent the data registered post we would have won.

Much more significant in my view was Browns announcement over renewable energy. That is something that come polling day the government will be judged on.


Re: HMRC - the slope gets more slippery (#3)

by Group51 on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 07:49:52 PM GMT

Hmm.  Money, Children, personal data, identity fraud.  Nope, nothing much important there.


[ Parent ]

Re: HMRC - the slope gets more slippery (#2)

by laurencemarshall on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 07:48:34 PM GMT

This was done by a low level civil servant who either completely disregarded existing procedures or didn't actually have any procedures to follow in the first place. Either way, it's a civil service problem, which couldn't have been prevented by a government of any colour.

Government is responsible for policy, the civil service administration (procedures). This is clearly an administrational issue, and ministers should not suffer because of it.


Re: HMRC - the slope gets more slippery (#4)

by rwendland on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 10:46:49 PM GMT

Ministers cannot be entirely divorced from the success of administration - otherwise good policies never implemented could be argued to be a success.

And how come such a low level civil servant should have access to whole countries child data? If so government computerised data is inherently insecure to the alure of the private investigator.

I very much doubt this was that low a level civil servant - remember that David Kelly was initially described as a low-level civil servant despite having being Head of the Defence Microbiology at Porton Down - the govt then defined low-level as not being in the First Division Association.


[ Parent ]

Re: HMRC - the slope gets more slippery (#5)

by laurencemarshall on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 11:07:57 PM GMT

You're right to an extent on administration, but this is a case of one or a few adminstrative acts, and is a case of one or a few individuals not following protocol.

Having worked in a sensitive goverment department, I know how the internal government postal system works. It may well have been the case that more than one person was involved. One senior person with access and one whose job is to deal with mail. In any case, the level of the civil servant is irrellevent (and I do think the government has learnt from the Kelly affair), as it still boils down to an administrative issue.

Really, we don't know at this stage.


 


[ Parent ]

Re: HMRC - the slope gets more slippery (#6)

by rwendland on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 11:56:29 PM GMT

Ministerial blame probably depends if the investigation concludes that the merger of Customs and benefit admin into IR, or the large civil service redundancy programme, contributed to this security violation.

No-one on the news tonight was defending the use of  internal government post for this data on unecrypted CDs - they were saying it was totally against procedure. It almost certainly wasn't in compliance of Data Protection Act legal obligations. Sending entire databases on unencrypted CDs breaks all auditing assurances: a) there is no assurance that someone hasn't made an unofficial copy (even if the CDs are now found); b) there is no audit log of which official accessed what records, which gives you the evidence to bring privacy violators to book. This was a crazy thing to do with such an extensive and sensitive database.


[ Parent ]

Re: HMRC - the slope gets more slippery (#7)

by roostifer on Wed Nov 21, 2007 at 03:03:46 PM GMT

How would we have viewed it if it had been the Tories?


Re: HMRC - the slope gets more slippery (#8)

by wgm on Wed Nov 21, 2007 at 04:54:56 PM GMT

It's hardly the fault of Brown or Darling but the Tories and their friends in the popular tabloids will try to pin it on them and link it to Northern Rock, the migrations figures mistake and just about anything else they can think of - incompetence will be the new sleaze. It's not Black Wednesday - Lamont's fingerprints were all over that - but whether it has a similar impact only time will tell.


Re: HMRC - the slope gets more slippery (#9)

by NorthernMonkey on Wed Nov 21, 2007 at 05:11:06 PM GMT

A desperately negative view Group51 and one that is unrealistic. What happened with HMRC is not even comparable to the havoc caused on Black Wednesday - and that event really was the fault of ministers (and their advisors such as a certain Mr. Cameron).


However, the government should fully take the blame for this. They've been in power for over 10 years and by now they should have sorted out the data systems to make them secure. Reviews regularly told Brown when he was Chancellor that the data systems and procedures needed to be updated and transformed, yet Brown ignored them.


The government needs to review and make fundamental changes to the way data is held and organised across the whole of government (with the Home Office and HM Treasury in particular requiring fundamental change).


Re: HMRC - the slope gets more slippery (#10)

by Group51 on Thu Nov 22, 2007 at 09:29:55 PM GMT

I am desperately negative?  What sort of bubble do you guys live in?  I guess we'll have to wait for the polls to see what's what.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91211-1293986,00.html?f=rss



[ Parent ]

Re: HMRC - the slope gets more slippery (#11)

by NorthernMonkey on Thu Nov 22, 2007 at 10:28:53 PM GMT

...yep, a poll taken the day after the news broke.

There won't be another general election until June 2009 at the earliest. Plenty of time to put things right. And the public still don't trust Cameron and Osborne to run the economy well.


[ Parent ]

Re: HMRC - the slope gets more slippery (#12)

by Group51 on Thu Nov 22, 2007 at 11:09:33 PM GMT

What do you have in mind I wonder?  ID cards? Nuclear Power?  Big reduction in inheritance tax?  Heathrow third runway?  Increased detention without charge?  Building on the greenbelt/flood plains?

Is this the vision, or have I missed something?  What happened to renewing our policies?


[ Parent ]

Re: HMRC - the slope gets more slippery (#13)

by NorthernMonkey on Sat Nov 24, 2007 at 02:25:49 AM GMT

Are you actually a Labour supporter Group51? Just curious to know.

There's certainly a lot more to a 'vision' than the policies outlined above (at least I hope so!), but plenty of things you mention there I'm reasonably supportive of.

I'm generally supportive of ID cards, nuclear power and Heathrow's third runway but I'm against big reductions in IHT, increased detention without charge and building on greenbelt / flood plains (unless it's absolutely necessary).


But as I've said before, Brown has failed to set out his vision so far - he needs to do so soon.


[ Parent ]

Re: HMRC - the slope gets more slippery (#14)

by Group51 on Sat Nov 24, 2007 at 09:00:21 PM GMT

Yes, I am a member of the Labour Party.  I went to Gordon Brown's London husting (the last one), and after listening to him, I would have voted for him (given the chance).

But, the election and inheritance tax move looked like reactions to the tories, and the Northern Rock thing is a reaction, and the HMRC thing is a reaction.

He has been talking about his vision, liberty but ID cards, nuclear power but mumble mumble for the environment - something about no plastic bags in 2080?  I know that sounds a bit cynical, but the public is cynical.  We need some simple popular social democratic (isn't he?) policies.


[ Parent ]

Re: HMRC - the slope gets more slippery (#15)

by JoeRoberts on Sun Nov 25, 2007 at 06:48:47 PM GMT

We're in government and that means that we have to do what is right for the country. Sometimes that means doing things which aren't hugely popular (and may be particularly unpopular with our own activists), but which the public ultimately realise are necessary. You've helpfully mentioned some of these policies in your post above.

That may well mean building more nuclear power stations to secure future energy supplies for our economy. It might mean building a third runway at Heathrow to improve our transport connections with the rest of the world and bolster London's position as a world economic powerhouse. It might mean increasing the length of time that terrorist suspects can be held in custody, to protect our people from Islamist terror. And it might also mean building more homes, to increase supply in the property market and give young people at least some chance of one day owning their own home.

Being in Government is tough; it's about thinking long term and about the interests of the whole country, not just playing to a gallery full of your own supporters.


[ Parent ]

Re: HMRC - the slope gets more slippery (#16)

by AlanJi on Mon Nov 26, 2007 at 11:36:43 PM GMT

1) Sending such a mass of data to auditors unencrypted and in internal post: serious, but possiblly not senior management, cock-up.
2) Arguing that supplying the Auditors with only the data they'd asked for is too expensive: serious senior managment misjudgement 'cos that's part and parcel of running the organistion properly.
3) Accepting that auditors can sit in London SW1 and can't be bothered to catch a train to do their work on site: Insufficiently robust response by a handful of the most senior people responsible for Child Benefit.

An appropriate HMRC response would have been an extremely blunt phone call, telling the auditors not to be pains in the arse and get their arses on that train, confirmed by a calm and polite e-mail, essentially making the same point.

Why should the data have ever left the site?


[ Parent ]

Re: HMRC - the slope gets more slippery (#17)

by Group51 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 01:56:22 AM GMT

It left the site because Ministers never told their civil servants to take electronic personal data seriously, and this electronic stuff is mostly from the late-90s.  Minister are now telling civil servants to take it seriously and its making a big difference.


[ Parent ]

HMRC - the slope gets more slippery | 17 comments (17 topical)