The Oxford Union, the BNP and David Irving

Mike Ion Sun Nov 18, 2007 at 07:33:44 PM GMT Print-friendly version Facebook

Below is the text of a message from Luke Tryl the current Oxford Union President regarding the invite that the Union has sent to BNP Leader Nick Griffin and Holocaust denier David Irving.



The basic premise of the President's argument is that the likes of Griffin and Irving should be exposed for the fraudsters, bigots and racists that they are. Fair enough but... the reality is that Irving and Griffin will milk the invite for as much as they can. An invite to the Oxford Union bestows credibility, in the minds of some it confers respectability.

Think again Luke, think again.

If you want to make Luke aware of your views you can email him at:

president@oxford-union.org


15 October 2007:
A Message to all Members of the Oxford Union regarding the Free Speech Forum entitled 'A Night of Discussion on the Limits of Free Speech', to be held November 2007
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Dear Members

I hope that you are well and had a good First Week. I'm just writing to respond to some of the coverage of the Union's Free Speech Forum in the Press this week. Many of you will have heard by now that David Irving and Nick Griffin are possible speakers for the forum. However the Press failed to point out a number of key facts.

These people are not being given a platform to extol their views, but are coming to talk about the limits of free speech. What is more, they will be speaking in the context of a forum in which there will be other speakers to challenge and attack their views in a head to head manner and with the opportunity for students to challenge them from the floor. It is my belief that pushing the views of these people underground achieves nothing. The best way to deal with these views was summed up by Home Office Minister Tony McNulty on Thursday and that is 'to crush these people in debate'. Stopping them from speaking only allows them to become free speech martyrs, and from my own experience back in Halifax, which has suffered from race relation problems in the past, groups like the BNP do well if they look like they're being censored. Unlike OUSU, I think it's patronising to suggest that Oxford students aren't intelligent enough to debate with these people and I do have great faith in the ability of Oxford students to challenge them.

I should also point out that because this is a forum rather than a standard debate or speaker meeting no Union funds will be going toward entertaining the speakers and hence none of your membership fee will be spent 'wining and dining the speakers' as the Press suggests.
If any of you have any further concerns about this forum please do come and contact me at any time. Or come along to my open office session on Tuesdays at 2pm. I realise that this is a difficult and controversial area but the Union was particularly founded to discuss and promote free speech. I hope that as many of you as possible will come to the forum on the 26th of November and prove that Oxford students can take these people on in reasoned debate and win.

Yours
LUKE TRYL , Magdalen College
PRESIDENT

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The Oxford Union, the BNP and David Irving | 27 comments (27 topical)

Re: The Oxford Union, the BNP and David Irving (#1)

by David Green on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 10:03:41 AM GMT

Thanks for posting that Mike - you're right, it is disgraceful that the Union should offer its platform and credibility to Griffin and Irving.

 There's a group of people in Oxford, part of which I'm co-ordinating, who aim to protest against the visit. There's a rally at Oxford Town Hall tomorrow evening - anyone who's interested would be most welcome.

 Also, this Friday there is to be a poll in the Union on whether to support the invitations - if the poll, which the President has brought, is defeated then the invitations will be cancelled. So, if you're a life member of the Oxford Union, please try to get down to Oxford on Friday to vote against the invitations!

 If all else fails, we're going to be protesting outside the event next Monday, with a broad coalition of people who are disgusted at the Union's controversy-courting freak show.

 If anyone's interested in finding out more about this, please get in touch with me: 07775525486 david.green@ousu.ox.ac.uk.

Cheers

 Dave


Re: The Oxford Union, the BNP and David Irving (#2)

by swatantra on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 10:10:37 AM GMT

You've done us all a favour Mike by posting this, reminding the intelligensia that Facism is still arond and now comes in a three piece suit. Remember the other famous 'Oxford Debate in 1936' which  I am sure gave encouragment to Hitler to plan the invasion of Britain. This could gain the same noteriety as that infamous episode in the history of the Union. The President should be ashamed.


[ Parent ]

Re: The Oxford Union, the BNP and David Irving (#7)

by Mike Ion on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 12:58:26 PM GMT

Good luck to you Dave and also well done to you and to OUSU for the principled stance you have taken on this matter.


[ Parent ]

Re: The Oxford Union, the BNP and David Irving (#21)

by alexanderbaker on Wed Nov 21, 2007 at 09:42:52 PM GMT

What I fail to understand in all this is why members of the left believe it acceptable to use fascist methods to deny those who hold minority viewpoints from ever airing them.

Aren't those who propose to deny anybody the ability to freely air their views - mistaken or otherwise - just as bad as the fascists they claim they are fighting? 

The liberal-left seems to be a bit schizophrenic on this issue. On the one hand it is against fascists. And on the other hand it would deny those whose views are deemed unacceptable the ability to air them.

I also think it would be a more productive use of time to work out why so many people actually vote for parties like the BNP, and address these underlying causes, instead of simply banning them. The latter is just lazy politics.


[ Parent ]

Re: The Oxford Union, the BNP and David Irving (#3)

by alexhilton on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 12:04:56 PM GMT

I have the perfect compromise. Why doesn't Luke Tryl speak at a BNP conference, and any Oxford Union types that want to challenge them can do so there.


Re: The Oxford Union, the BNP and David Irving (#4)

by Radford Mann on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 12:05:38 PM GMT

I'm with the President on this one. The question about what the limits to free speech are, or ought to be, is becoming increasingly important. Perhaps even more important is the question of who gets to determine what the limits are? As fully paid up lefties obviously we all object to the BNP and its hateful message. But if it becomes acceptable to exercise censorship where does it stop? Throughout history radical opinion on the left has had to challenge the limits of then existing acceptable speech in order for society to progress. Be confident that the message of the BNP and David Irving is so bad that not only the Oxford Union will see through it but all decent people will too. Ultimately, free speech for us means free speech for them as well. The Union should be congratualted for airing this topic and inviting the really hard cases to test the limits.


Re: The Oxford Union, the BNP and David Irving (#5)

by TonyH on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 12:36:08 PM GMT

I agree.

A part of free speech is the requirement that we have the courage to acknowledge and debate people whose words and beliefs make our blood boil. Whether it’s the BNP or some mad religious zelot - the greater concession is not having the courage to take them and their hateful views face on.

They may milk the event - but aren’t they already milking the fact that they are marginalised?

In this case – they are not even getting a chance to air their views – they are to talk about free speech. If either Irving or Griffin airs a hateful opinion – should we not trust the intellectual rigour of the Oxford union to dismantle their argument?


[ Parent ]

Re: The Oxford Union, the BNP and David Irving (#6)

by Mike Ion on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 12:56:23 PM GMT

Tony

My main difficulty is not the invite (though I do think it foolish) rather it is the 'credibility' issue. Debating with the likes of Griffin and Irving may well prove intellectually stimulating for some members of the Oxford Union but the realpolitik is that the BNP is very keen to be seen as moving into the mainstream of British politics, an invite from the Oxford Union may well help the BNP in achieving this ambition.

Racism, bigotry and hatred are more than debating topics - for some they are the cold realities of living in modern Britain.


[ Parent ]

Re: The Oxford Union, the BNP and David Irving (#10)

by TonyH on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 04:52:05 PM GMT

Ok - but I think the anti-racism movement loses credibility when we refuse to debate, expose and humiliate the empty argument extolled by these people.

I agree - the likes of the BNP should not get a place on the national platform - but surely we don't think it's wise to pretend they are not there - that there should be no platform from which to beat them. 

We talk to terrorists, we want to talk to rogue states as we're confident that reason wins the day. Why should this be a principled exception?

You're right when you say this invite may help them gain credibility - it might. I expect though, that Griffin and Irving being humiliated will be far from helpful to their wreched causes.


[ Parent ]

Re: The Oxford Union, the BNP and David Irving (#14)

by donpaskini on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 01:45:58 PM GMT

How will they be 'humiliated' by speaking in favour of free speech for extremists alongside a Liberal Democrat MP?

There has already been a forum in which David Irving's arguments have been debated, exposed and humiliated.  It is called a courtroom, and it allowed experts to give evidence and cross examine him over a period of months.  In other courtrooms, top BNP activists have been proved to be violent and racist criminals.  What exactly can the Oxford Union add to this?


[ Parent ]

Re: The Oxford Union, the BNP and David Irving (#26)

by TonyH on Fri Nov 23, 2007 at 12:00:20 PM GMT

That, unfortunaltely, is where your argument founders Don.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/6135060.stm

This time last yead Nick Griffin and Mark Collett were acquitted of race hate in Leeds and came out to chants of "freedom" from their supporters. A far cry from humiliation.

To win over people who may be persuaded by the BNP - we need to demonstrate, in argument, why the BNP is wrong. Not simply ignore them until we think they've broken the law. That means engaging them in argument.
Like Mike, I don't want to elevate them to the national level - but neither do I want them festering underground.


[ Parent ]

Re: The Oxford Union, the BNP and David Irving (#8)

by donpaskini on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 04:43:29 PM GMT

This is an incoherent argument.  The Oxford Union have invited the fascists to speak 'in favour of free speech'. 

Hardly anyone is actually opposed to the principle of people who hold extremist views having the right to freedom of speech, so they will be able to report that the people there, and indeed, the Liberal Democrat MP who has agreed to speak on the same side as them on this subject, supported them.

I'd love to hear an explanation of how, given the format of the Oxford Union where speakers can deny points of information and there is extremely limited opportunity for cross-examination, it will be possible to 'take their views on'.

The people who actually do have the courage to take on the fascists, in elections or in court (which is where their opinions and actions actually do get exposed), are campaigning for this freak show to be cancelled.

This doesn't mean restricting their freedom of speech, by the way.  They have the same rights to speak freely in public as anyone else (rights which they seek to deny others, of course).  If there is a right to speak at the Oxford Union, where's my invitation?


[ Parent ]

Re: The Oxford Union, the BNP and David Irving (#11)

by alexhilton on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 04:52:59 PM GMT

Don is absolutely right on this - there is no "right" to speak at the Oxford Union.

I suspect this is a case of the President wanting a little notoriety


[ Parent ]

Re: The Oxford Union, the BNP and David Irving (#13)

by TonyH on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 08:28:38 AM GMT

But there is a "right" for the Oxford union to invite who they want.


[ Parent ]

Re: The Oxford Union, the BNP and David Irving (#12)

by jkitleft on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 10:10:07 PM GMT

Mahmoud Ahmadenejad: Columbia University. He made himself look like an idiot. A sign?


Re: The Oxford Union, the BNP and David Irving (#15)

by hexaflexagon on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 11:34:30 PM GMT

For heavens sake, all you who are trying to stop this debate.

Don't you see the supreme irony here? They're being invited to specifically debate on the subject of the 'limits to free speech'.

 


Re: The Oxford Union, the BNP and David Irving (#16)

by Mike Ion on Wed Nov 21, 2007 at 07:40:01 AM GMT

It is not the invite to debate that is the issue for me, rather it is how the invite from the Oxford Union will be perceived.

Would you be happy if the BNP were invited onto Question Time? Perhaps you would - I wouldn't. Why? Not because I wish to deny free speech but because of the 'legitimacy' such an invitation would bestow.


[ Parent ]

Re: The Oxford Union, the BNP and David Irving (#17)

by hexaflexagon on Wed Nov 21, 2007 at 10:30:10 AM GMT

Oh dear. There are several assumptions here, none of which I accept. It's assumed that a Question Time audience in its wider sense, let alone an Oxford Union audience, isn't intelligent enough to decide whether any views given are acceptable or not. You're also suggesting that a mere appearance as opposed to anything that's said, would imply a legitimacy.

But the biggest problem I have is the question being begged in this argument. That to have views that some people oppose is to be illegitimate in some way. The state have not proscribed the BNP as an organisation so I can't see how you can argue it is illegitimate.


[ Parent ]

Re: The Oxford Union, the BNP and David Irving (#18)

by Mike Ion on Wed Nov 21, 2007 at 02:51:06 PM GMT

Why the 'oh dear' comment?

I am not implying that an invitation confers legitimacy, I am stating that it does. I stress again that I do not object to the invite I just think it inadvisable and foolish.


[ Parent ]

Re: The Oxford Union, the BNP and David Irving (#19)

by hardmant on Wed Nov 21, 2007 at 06:00:51 PM GMT

I hope those who plan to demonstrate against this debate realise how irresponsible they are being. Because of the threat of demonstrations, far-right groups have threatened to put up counter-demonstrations. I'm afraid I don't agree with anybody who is going criticise the Union's right to inviting two odious speakers to debate free speech, who will then create a real security risk by bringing out the placards. Strikes me as somewhat hypocritical.


Re: The Oxford Union, the BNP and David Irving (#20)

by swatantra on Wed Nov 21, 2007 at 09:34:02 PM GMT

The demos might just persuade the facists to reconsider invading Oxford. Facists want to stifle free speech; don't give them an inch.


[ Parent ]

Re: The Oxford Union, the BNP and David Irving (#22)

by alexanderbaker on Wed Nov 21, 2007 at 11:05:06 PM GMT

Or, indeed, free speech?


[ Parent ]

Re: The Oxford Union, the BNP and David Irving (#23)

by alexhilton on Thu Nov 22, 2007 at 02:42:56 AM GMT

are public demonstrations not also part of free speech?


[ Parent ]

Re: The Oxford Union, the BNP and David Irving (#24)

by alexanderbaker on Thu Nov 22, 2007 at 09:56:19 AM GMT

Indeed they are.

But claiming free speech as the justification for a demo whose aim is to deny others the same freedom of speech is self-evidently peverse.


[ Parent ]

Re: The Oxford Union, the BNP and David Irving (#25)

by swatantra on Thu Nov 22, 2007 at 02:12:27 PM GMT

You've just shot yourself in the foot alexanderbaker. 'freespeech' is the last refuge of the 'facist'.


[ Parent ]

Re: The Oxford Union, the BNP and David Irving (#27)

by jkitleft on Sat Nov 24, 2007 at 05:28:49 PM GMT

First of all it's 'fascist', second of all you're wrong, third shut up, fourth the statement that you made is an oxymoronic permeating syllogism to be sure, and fifth, shut up again


[ Parent ]

Re: The Oxford Union, the BNP and David Irving (#28)

by swatantra on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 11:19:53 PM GMT

Oh dear! jkitleft. I guess you could be restricting someone's freedom of speech by telling people to 'shut up', not once, but twice. I think even M Howard would agree with me that N Griffin shouldn't be allowed to speak at the Oxford U. 


[ Parent ]

The Oxford Union, the BNP and David Irving | 27 comments (27 topical)