Grammar schools back on the political agenda

UPDATE: I have written a lengthier piece for the Guardian's CiF website - click here to read in full.



According to the Sunday Times the political row over selective education is about to be reignited following the announcement that the government intends to look at how it can make it easier for disaffected parents to force the ending of selection at local grammar schools.

Good news? In my view, yes. For two main reasons:

1. Selective education is bad for England and the ending of academic selection at aged 11 is very much unfinished business.

2. Such a move will open clear dividing lines between a Labour party committed to equity as well as excellence and a Tory party that wishes to entrench advantage.

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Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#1)

In my opinion - bad move. Faith schools and private schools do far more damage than grammar schools do. We don't need to pick another fight with the middle classes. Just leave grammar schools alone - the people who live in those areas are mostly happy with what they've got so let's not needlessly start more fights we can't win.


Plus it would allow Cameron to look pro-grammar schools compared to us if we did this and that would be a mistake.

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#4)

Does it not depend on tactics? I do not want to 'close' grammar schools but I do want selection by ability to end. For every grammar school (164) there are at least 3 de facto secondary moderns that replace them - therefore many parents are likely to support any measure that results in a fairer admission policy for schools.Making the ballot arrangments easier to organise will give local parents the chance to decide whether the grammar school should be opened up to all local pupils and not just a select few. These schools would not 'close' they would simply end up with a more balanced intake.

This could be a vote winner in some areas don't you think?

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#6)

Honestly, no! The areas of the country that have grammar schools are generally quite happy with them and are usually conservative areas as well like Kent, Trafford, particular parts of the West Midlands...

They don't want to get rid of their grammar schools and to be honest if we end up making Cameron look like the saviour of grammar schools then that's a big vote loser for us and it's a victory for him.

Our policy on grammar schools should stay unchanged from what it is now in my opinion.

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#8)

You mean the people who shout the loudest, politically, are happy with them...

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#11)

Well from my experience, areas with grammar schools genuinely seem happy having them and it is their democratic right to have their say. If they want to get rid of their grammar schools then so be it, but it hasn't happened so far and I don't see it happening any time soon.

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#7)

Astonsihing comments by Norther Monkey, wrong and unprincipled. Grammar schools are the great unfinished business for the Labour Party and no amount of oppositionism should distract us from what is fundementially a social justice issue!

If the report is true..GOOD!

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#13)

Here here!

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#2)

All we need now is a Labour Party that is commited to equity and excellence.

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#3)

I think it's a good move.  It'll put up some real dividing lines in my constituency - and while we may come off on the wrong side of them (the grammar schools are unaccountably popular with the electorate!!) some ideological battlelines are welcome.

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#5)

What!? So you're basically admitting that we would lose this argument but you still want to push ahead with it anyway? I hope Brown's advisors have more sense. Then again...

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#9)

Wrong again, the whole point of the Grammar school system is more people are disadvantaged by it than not, hence any issue of fairness works not only in social justice terms and the greater good of children it can also score politically. Also to put it bluntly, like we don't as a party change our principles on racism or the death penalty for votes we should neither do it on serious education social justice issues, or put another way, stuff the floating voter in Kingston, Kent or anyway else clining to selection.

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#10)

I just think it's picking an unnecessary fight with the middle classes which we won't win and will make it harder for us to win elections.

Faith schools and in particular private schools cause far greater inequalities and unfairness than grammar schools and it seems to me hypocritical to get rid of grammar schools whilst pushing for more faith schools to open and allowing private schools to keep their charity status.

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#12)

Not at all.  I was making a very specific point about my constituency (one of the few in the country which still has grammar schools).  And I think we'll win the argument, anyway.

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#15)

Sorry, I really can't see what the point is of drawing ideological lines in the sand that are going to lose us elections.

In fact, I consider doing so fundamentally wrong and actually quite selfish: by giving us politically-engaged types something to jump up and down about and have a good knockabout debate with the Tories on, we leave ourselves open to electoral defeat. That means that not only do the 164 or however many there are Grammar Schools stay and become even more entrenched, but resources will get directed away from our educational prioirties across the whole country and - probably - diminished as a proportion of national income. So by stroking our own egos by staking out unnecessarily divisive ideological positions we let down those who need a Labour government the most.

I'm probably as ideologically opposed to Grammar schools as anyone posting on this forum, but we really need to choose battles that yield the maximum results for the minimum loss of political capital.  I'm afraid going after Kentish Grammar Schools now isn't one of them (just look at the mess Cameron got himself into on this issue!).
 
But - if we can gradually change the tone of the political debate over time so that, like an absence of a minimum wage, unequal ages of consent or - ahem - bishops in the House of Lords, they start to look to a sizeable majority of the voting public wrong, weird or anachronistic then would be the time when we can think about practically doing something about them. And it's much easier for us to do that if we stay in power and keep shaping public policy.

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#16)

Well said.

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#17)

You clearly have not read the arguements, as previously pointed out not only is selection a SOCIAL JUSTICE issue (and SOCIAL JUSTICE is and will always be a non-negociable part of our politics), their is no case for a state education system providing differential standards of education with differential resources, not only is it an education issue in terms of achievement, expectations, social mobility etc (and for every year we back away from putting this anomoly right more childrens lifes are changed for the worse at all), it is also a ELECTORAL ASSET. The fact remains that Grammar Schools only exist in a small minority of areas, that in those areas the vast majority of people consider them unfair, do not wish their children to suffer the indignaties that go with selection at 11 and whilst their would be no rush in Kent or Kingston to vote Labour simply on this policy their would neither be a decline.

The final point I will address is this bizarre idea we point stick to policies simply due to percieved unpopularity amoungst as small section of the electorate (which by definition can't support our values if it values selection). I yeild to no-one in having bought in full the modernisation agenda since 1994 (clause 4 change, detatching the Unions, the full McCoy) but I, and others of a simular vein have never believed you don't promote or aticulate your basic values, especially where SOCIAL JUSTICE is at stake. This is not a "New Labour" v "old labour" argument, its a principle v selfish one.

If you want the clinging argument on the damage done by selection, check out my grammar and spelling (and BTW it looks like I was brought up close to Alanji!!).

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#14)

I'm the last person in my family to sit the 11+. That was at the junior school across the road and most of us were going to the same secondary school whatever our results. I'm 16 days younger than Tony Blair and William Hague later went to the same School. To some of us its all old hat, but I understand that in some places its not quite like that.
 
What we need is to develop some serious arguments about opportunityand achievement and base them on the statistics. But there are no statistics of any use beyond GCSE and age 16+

When we've solved that problem we'll be able to ask:  What is the point of secondary schools that are twice as difficult to get into as Universities?

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#18)

How will grammar schools select when we abolish selection (assuming some of the abolitionists posting on this site dont intend to abolish the schools as well!)?

By geographic catchment area - nearest first, furthest last? Where is the social justice in that as the middle classes use their economic power to buy into catchment areas and those without miss out.

Seems to me the fairest way would be the drawing of lots...every applicant treated equally. But we lost control of Brighton Council on the back of that policy recently. 

We dont make poorer performing schools better by penalising better performing schools. 

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#19)

By removing selection the Grammars become like every other state school, they simply lose their elitist nature, their catchment policy becomes the same as applies to every other state school. I really do tire of the pro-grammar arguments, none of which ever proport to resolve the fundemential unfairness of selection and grammar schools but simply hide behind kindergarden level analysis of politics, its sad really, this should be on issue that unites the left and moderate ends of the Labour Party. I repeat, if you can defend selection you should be elsewhere politically.

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#20)

I note you've not answered the following:

Where is the social justice in that [using catchment areas] as the middle classes use their economic power to buy into catchment areas and those without miss out.

Isn't there a fundamential (sic) unfairness about the middle classes using their economic power to move into the right catchment areas? And sorry if this is kindergarten level analysis, comrade, but presumably that makes it a pretty straight forward question to answer..?

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#21)

Surely the answer is to have fair admission policies for all schools? Selection - where the school chooses the pupil (as opposed to the other way round) can never be part of a fair admission's policy.

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#22)

I think the arguments about high house prices near some secondary schools are unsubstantiated gossip. Slelctive Bexley is one of the cheaper London Boroughs, and starying on at 16+ there is below the national average. Hackney, on the other hand ...........

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#24)

AlanJi, the attached suggests its not unsubstantiated gossip.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-6716867-details/Cost+of+living+near+best+schools/article. do;jsessionid=0l24HMDXk0JRxpJFXgfND8m8626Nk5Jvv5pyx2jt9GnVrTLZfJ9Q!606234033!-1407319226!7001!-1

So the question remains: how do we ensure fair selection through catchment area when the middle classes can buy their way into a school? How's that fairer than buying privilege through a private education?

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#23)

Mike - I agree, but there will always be some schools that are more popular than others. So, in those circumstances, what fair selection system do you propose where a school is over subscribed?

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#36)

Well it's the duty of government to make every school excellent.  That's not to say every school should necessarily be the same (though I'm not a fan of specialist schools, I think it reasonable that a couple of schools in a locale can be encouraged to specialise in special educational needs support or sporting facilities or performing arts - I'm less comfortable with the idea of more mainstream curriculum specialisms such as languages and science) - there can be some recognition therefore of choice and special requirements, etc.

Of course you won't get rid of the fact that some schools will still be more popular than others but the way to make allocation as fair as possible is to make education as equitable as possible.

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#25)

Apologies, kindergarden was clearly giving you too much respect. Your point seems now to be that we retain the unfairness of selection simply because you can't think of a way to prevent the capitalist system operating...about as purile a comment as i have ever read on here. Based on your stange system of priority we would have to demolish all houses, rebuild them all at the same size, with equal distance from a school etc etc. No sorry but even if your purile question was answered to your satisfaction you'd only find some other uncurable concept of fairness as an excuse to disguise your pro-selection elitist views, instead of focusing your energies on a simple sloution to the greater, more relevant, life ruining injustice...selection.

For future reference "just Labour", don't bother with your "(sic)"'s, it's old water off a working class lad who went through the 11+ systems back.

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#26)

I’m sorry you find my arguments puerile.  But I don’t think it is right to replace one unfair system with another.  I return to my central point because I don’t think anyone has adequately answered it.  Where a school attracts more applicants than places exist, then some form of selection is required.  I recognise that academic selection is unfair to those who “fail”. But equally, I find it unfair that those with the economic means to do so can buy their way into popular schools by moving into the right catchment area.  As I’ve said in an earlier post a fairer way might be to allocate places randomly by lottery, but that was electoral suicide for the Labour council [Brighton] that tried it. 

 

The long term answer is of course to drive up standards and attainment in all schools so that more parents who fail to get into their first choice school are happy with a place at their second or subsequent choice.

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#27)

But your long term goal is impossible with the yoke of selection so in order for you to progress the basics of fairness have to be applied first. Your support of a lottery is another manifestation of the simplistic nature of your points however if it worked then I would support it despite the alleged political price because, like removing selection, its more important to advocate measures that work and are consistant with our core principles than to hide behind perceved unpopularity.

You keep repeating the same question and ignoring all answers given. It is "unfair" that I am not 6ft, I do not expect the rest of mankind to deal with that issue, however I am realistic enough to know that science is more likily to fathom a way of equalising bodies before mankind finds a way to make capitalism scrupiliuosly fair. Unless you are advocating a permit system for where people live them continued references to "economic means" in the context of schools are irrelivant.


What is relevant is getting a clear answer to the questions you are avoiding, which are:


1) Why do you not support the removal of the unfairness of selection?


2) What possible evidence do you have that it would be electorally unpopular (and references to polls in selection areas run my selection supporters are not valid)?


3) What other issues do you think our core principles should be shelved over?


Cheers.

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#28)

It may or not be unfair that you are not six feet tall, but as you aren’t or wouldn’t be entitled to gain advantageous access to a popular school on that basis, you’re right, it’s irrelevant. 
1) Why do you not support the removal of the unfairness of selection?
Because ending the unfairness of selection would, under your plans, simply lead to its replacement by an equally unfair system – allocation by catchment.  I don’t think its fair that working class kids living outside the catchment area of a good school should miss out simply because their parents aren’t wealthy enough to move houses like their middle class peers.
2) What possible evidence do you have that it would be electorally unpopular (and references to polls in selection areas run my selection supporters are not valid)?
Because no one has successfully used the mechanism our Government introduced to allow parents to ballot on ending selection where it exists. Indeed, I think only one ballot has taken place (Ripon Grammar school, Yorkshire) and that saw a 2-1 vote in favour of retaining the school’s selective policies.
I’d also agree with the comments made by Dark Horse earlier in this thread.
3) What other issues do you think our core principles should be shelved over?
I am applying my core principles to this issue: namely ensuring that working class kids don’t miss out at the expense of the middle classes.  But I acknowledge that there are many in the party who see it differently.
You state:
its more important to advocate measures that work and are consistant with our core principles than to hide behind perceved unpopularity
I'm with dark horse on this: I can’t agree that it makes sense to pursue policies that we know to be unpopular and election losing.  As I say, Brighton Council pursued a policy that they thought tackled the unfairness on their school admissions process and lost power as a result.  They may be able to advocate measures that “work and are consistent with our core principles” but they cannot implement them from opposition.

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#29)

I feel no need to carry this discussion forward, your points have yet to rise from the level of 6th debating society or to recognise the real issues, to class catchment issues as worse than selection beggers belief and is inconsistant with your claims of understanding labour principles. Your last contribution shows a lack of political backbone, I look forward to you proposing the return of the death penalty simply because it has majority support in the electorate (as does discriminating against travellors).

End.

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#30)

Written in the finest traditions of the authoritarian left.

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#31)

I'm moderniser wing, which is different to your "principle free" faction.

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#32)

You're being a bit childish here Parishpumpspin. You might not like the answers which JustLabour gave, but don't start throwing insults around because it makes you look silly.

JustLabour answered the questions fairly with his own opinion, why don't you just reply with your opinion and accept other people's opinions.

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#33)

You cant "accept" opinions that are so clearly born of a limited political intellect or understanding of the consequences for people of such idiocy.

As for "silly" and "childish" I suggest you remember the golden rule that all discussion forums are destined to become insular and nik-picking and that process starts the moment somebody who isnt the moderator decides to accuse someone of "throwing insults"....

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#34)

Huh? How do you know he has "limited political intellect"? You're accusing him of idiocy just because you don't agree with him, not because he has said anything stupid.

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#35)

No, it was stupid. My opinion, and as you kindly pointed out, opinion is what we are all entitled to.

35 posts on this subject and as far as I can see the consenus is that if the article is correct, most of us are content.

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#37)

Well that's just being arrogant. You put no decent points forward, you just insult people.

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#38)

Thank you for pointing that out, have you considered going into teaching, I understand that shortages in some subjects still exist. If you do choose that route you'd help more children in a state school without the stain of selection.

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#39)

Parishpumpspin wrote: "Your support of a lottery is another manifestation of the simplistic nature of your points however if it worked then I would support it despite the alleged political price because, like removing selection, its more important to advocate measures that work and are consistant with our core principles than to hide behind perceved unpopularity."

No it's not. Advocating measures does worse than nothing if they're not politically feasible and cause us to lose elections. I understand your frustation, parishpumpspin, at the continuing injustice that is selective education in parts of this country. I think I'm right in saying that we all agree that, in an ideal world, there wouldn't be grammar schools, nor would there be "selective comprehensives", admission to which is based on ability to buy an expensive houses or work the system.

But, unfortunately, political reality dictates that we need to pick the battles that we can first. We need to walk before we can run. We need to keep raising standards of state education towards to meet those offered by the best private schools across the board and in all parts of the country. If that means tolerating selective education in a minority of English shires for a few more years, so be it. Unfortunately, the hard evidence that we have points to selective education having a strong popular majority in the areas in which it exists.

So much has been done in the past decade to improve education for the vast majority of children in this country, we can't just throw it away for the sake of an ideological battle that we're not going win (yet).

I'm not asking you to rethink your belief in social justice and in an equally excellent education for all. If more people had such strong beliefs as you, I think the world would be a better place.

What I'm asking you to do is to think again about the means by which this can be acheived. Either we play a long game, gradually making things better in all schools - comprehensive, grammer, Academy and [grimace] faith schools - thereby palpably improving the life chances of the most vulnerable and disadvantaged children and empirically demonstrating that selective education is illogical.

Or we play a short game where we watch, with varying degrees of gratification and guilt, Newsnight interviews with frustrated and angry Buckinghamshire parents who can't quite afford private schools taking their kids down to the local comp for the first time halfway through their prepartion for Key Stage 3 exams, but then lose local and national elections and see the Tories come back in to reinstate the Grammars, slash education spending, cut back on Surestart and attempt to reverse the all the gains we've made.

Rome, nor Jerusalem, was built in a day.

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#40)

Just to pick up on your last point, do you actually know how many Labour seats are in Bucks, or indeed in areas where the abolision of Public/Grammar schools would actually make a difference? I'm curious to know. 

I think we need to actually know, before we can make any judgement on this issue.

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#42)

Laurence

When last I looked there were 36 Labour held seats that contained selective schools - of these about 20 could be described as 'safe' seats.

Mike

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#43)

Thanks!

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#41)

Darkhorse, thank you for a genuine attempt to engage the issues, my response will be short by focusing on two points. Firstly the so called ballot issue, I personally find the idea that parents are allowed to make a decision on the nature of schooling which should somehow the ballot allows a majority of pro-selection votes is going to have a negative effect on others standard of education to be preposterous. The national policy was set in 1972 and comfirmed in 1974, no local votes are required, selection is wrong and any call for "local choices" has to be within the confines of national fairness and by definition selection can't be on offer in Buckingshire or anywhere else for that matter. To me thats a fundemantial of our principles and that is why i find the defence of selection by others on other threads on here so undefensable.

My second point is on the politics and on this we clearly disagree on the facts and the consequences. All my experience tells me that we have very little of our support based on a mis-understanding we might condone selection and thus I see no real electoral issue here, especially as in the vast majority of areas their are no grammars and no call to return them. When you also factor in that by definition the majority of parents in areas where selection is entrenched will find their children on the wrong side of the enforced division then if their is any electoral price to pay (and I'm clear that like fighting racism and being anti-death penalty if the electorate can't see the point of fairness we just have to keep pushing it) then that's because we havn't made our case sufficently and robustly enough.

I do have one minor irritation on your post to return to you, after spending the majority of Thatchers first two term as long term unemployed in the steel and coal areas of South Yorkshire can I suggest coments on the consequences of tory governments be directed to those with no experience of them and not to those of us with long memories. Ta.

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#44)

Thanks Parishpumpspin. Points noted, and respected . I still believe that this shouldn't be our top priority, though concede that it's on (albeit, relatively, low on) the scale of things on which anti-racism and death penalty are near if not at the top - I think that probably concludes our debate on this one.

Cheers! 

Re: Grammar schools back on the political agenda (#45)

I'm in favour of grammer schools. They didn't need abolition, but they certainly needed reform. The 11-plus was a form of Social Darwinism, and it's utopian thinking to suggest that the top 25% would ALWAYS be in a grammer school. But I believe in selection by ability, not selection by wealth. And when the grammer schools were abolished, the private schools simply absorbed them, creating a two-tiered education system, where by rich kids would almost always get a superior education to kids that are not as rich. If kids from a background of working-class miners had got into grammer schools, I would imagine their parents would be proud, rather than appaled. The grammer schools needed reform, not abolition, and a consequence of this action, has lead to a grinding halt in social moblitiy (in combination with Thatcherism)